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Author Topic:   A Way to Think About Free Will and God: Open Theism
Tangle
Member
Posts: 6609
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 3.9


Message 301 of 374 (846438)
01-06-2019 3:33 AM
Reply to: Message 300 by GDR
01-05-2019 8:28 PM


Re: Calling evil good or good evil.
GDR writes:

Paul puts it this way in Ephesians 1.

I find it interesting that so much weight is put into what Paul is supposed to have said. The man never even met Jesus yet he's supposed to have all this knowledge of his intentions and message.

He's actually more important than Jesus, without him Christianity wouldn't exist at all. He didn't actually need Jesus to have lived at all to create the story we hear today. Everything he says is hearsay - and/or - invention.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 300 by GDR, posted 01-05-2019 8:28 PM GDR has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 303 by Phat, posted 01-06-2019 7:55 AM Tangle has responded

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 3757
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 4.6


Message 302 of 374 (846439)
01-06-2019 7:52 AM
Reply to: Message 300 by GDR
01-05-2019 8:28 PM


Re: Calling evil good or good evil.
I did not say as a ghost.

Oh.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 300 by GDR, posted 01-05-2019 8:28 PM GDR has not yet responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 12035
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.4


Message 303 of 374 (846440)
01-06-2019 7:55 AM
Reply to: Message 301 by Tangle
01-06-2019 3:33 AM


Re: Calling evil good or good evil.
Tangle writes:

I find it interesting that so much weight is put into what Paul is supposed to have said. The man never even met Jesus yet he's supposed to have all this knowledge of his intentions and message.

Such hubris! I can see your not having much respect for contemporary apologists---but having little or no respect for Paul smacks of uninformed arrogance. Where are your credentials? What do you do for a living? Sell cars?

Sometimes, people have arguments from ignorance. Other times they have arguments from arrogance. So where do you get your information? At best it is biased opinion based on this whole idea that without "evidence" there is no case for Christianity.


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
~Stile


This message is a reply to:
 Message 301 by Tangle, posted 01-06-2019 3:33 AM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 304 by Tangle, posted 01-06-2019 8:10 AM Phat has responded
 Message 318 by ringo, posted 01-07-2019 11:08 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 6609
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 3.9


Message 304 of 374 (846441)
01-06-2019 8:10 AM
Reply to: Message 303 by Phat
01-06-2019 7:55 AM


Re: Calling evil good or good evil.
Phat writes:

Such hubris! I can see your not having much respect for contemporary apologists---but having little or no respect for Paul smacks of uninformed arrogance. Where are your credentials? What do you do for a living? Sell cars?
Sometimes, people have arguments from ignorance. Other times they have arguments from arrogance. So where do you get your information? At best it is biased opinion based on this whole idea that without "evidence" there is no case for Christianity.

Oh hello, Phat doesn't seem to know anything about Paul.

Do you think he ever met Jesus?


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 303 by Phat, posted 01-06-2019 7:55 AM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 305 by Phat, posted 01-06-2019 8:15 AM Tangle has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 12035
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.4


Message 305 of 374 (846442)
01-06-2019 8:15 AM
Reply to: Message 304 by Tangle
01-06-2019 8:10 AM


Re: Calling evil good or good evil.
Do you think he ever met Jesus?
He claims that Jesus talked to him. Critics say he made the story up, as likely also would you. But then, of course, you think its all made up from the getgo. I suppose you have a right to your opinion, but what makes me mad is that you have studied this stuff so little. It almost seems as if you form your position on the fly, citing the absence of evidence with evidence of absence (or made up stories). Im just challenging your credentials.

Not that it's necessarily a bad argument...simply a presumptuous one.


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
~Stile


This message is a reply to:
 Message 304 by Tangle, posted 01-06-2019 8:10 AM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 306 by Tangle, posted 01-06-2019 8:28 AM Phat has responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 6609
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 3.9


Message 306 of 374 (846444)
01-06-2019 8:28 AM
Reply to: Message 305 by Phat
01-06-2019 8:15 AM


Re: Calling evil good or good evil.
Phat writes:

He claims that Jesus talked to him.

Paul never met Jesus. Below is a chunk of stuff from this site

quote:
Got Questions Ministries seeks to glorify the Lord Jesus Christ by providing biblical, applicable, and timely answers to spiritually related questions through an internet presence."

I thought I'd use information from this evangelical source so that you can at least trust its motives as you doubt mine.

quote:
None of these considerations in any way establish that Paul had seen or heard Jesus personally prior to His atoning death at Calvary. We cannot say for sure whether or not Paul had ever met Jesus.

If you read more balanced accounts you'll get a quite different picture of Paul than the one you appear to have in your head. Do you ever read anything other than theocratic sites, stuff that deals with historicity?


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 305 by Phat, posted 01-06-2019 8:15 AM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 307 by Phat, posted 01-06-2019 8:47 AM Tangle has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 12035
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.4


Message 307 of 374 (846446)
01-06-2019 8:47 AM
Reply to: Message 306 by Tangle
01-06-2019 8:28 AM


Re: Calling evil good or good evil.
Tangle writes:

Do you ever read anything other than theocratic sites, stuff that deals with historicity?

Sometimes.

GotQuestions writes:

None of these considerations in any way establish that Paul had seen or heard Jesus personally prior to His atoning death at Calvary. We cannot say for sure whether or not Paul had ever met Jesus.

My assumption was that he had not. The only way that Paul met Jesus in spirit is because the account says that Jesus talked with him, and we know that Jesus had died. I suppose a mythicist such as Richard Carrier would say that the story was embellished. An apologist would likely claim that It *was* Jesus whom Paul talked to after being struck blind. My rudimentary of understanding the dogma would tell me that the Trinity is not composed of interchangeable parts...each essence has a distinct character. Thus for a voice to speak to Paul after Jesus death would infer what exactly?


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
~Stile


This message is a reply to:
 Message 306 by Tangle, posted 01-06-2019 8:28 AM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 308 by Tangle, posted 01-06-2019 8:57 AM Phat has responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 6609
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 3.9


Message 308 of 374 (846448)
01-06-2019 8:57 AM
Reply to: Message 307 by Phat
01-06-2019 8:47 AM


Re: Calling evil good or good evil.
Phat writes:

My assumption was that he had not.

Right so where did all that righteous indignation come from?

Paul never met Jesus, yet the Christian church would not exist without him. Everything real world that he bases his missionary work on is hearsay.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 307 by Phat, posted 01-06-2019 8:47 AM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 309 by Phat, posted 01-06-2019 9:27 AM Tangle has responded
 Message 322 by Phat, posted 01-07-2019 12:50 PM Tangle has not yet responded
 Message 323 by Phat, posted 01-07-2019 12:50 PM Tangle has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 12035
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.4


Message 309 of 374 (846449)
01-06-2019 9:27 AM
Reply to: Message 308 by Tangle
01-06-2019 8:57 AM


Re: Calling evil good or good evil.
He met Jesus in Spirit.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
~Stile


This message is a reply to:
 Message 308 by Tangle, posted 01-06-2019 8:57 AM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 310 by Tangle, posted 01-06-2019 9:53 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 6609
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 3.9


Message 310 of 374 (846450)
01-06-2019 9:53 AM
Reply to: Message 309 by Phat
01-06-2019 9:27 AM


Re: Calling evil good or good evil.
Phat writes:

He met Jesus in Spirit.

So he's reputed to have said. In fact he had many 'visions' one of which had him ascended into heaven. But he never met Jesus or heard him speak anywhere outside his own head. Nothing can be made of that other than he suffered from delusions.

Unlike Jesus though, there's a reasonable amount evidence that he actually existed or at least that someone we call Paul existed and wrote things down. In fact four different individuals wrote what is now attributed to Paul but don't let that bother you.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 309 by Phat, posted 01-06-2019 9:27 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 18249
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 4.0


Message 311 of 374 (846451)
01-06-2019 10:11 AM
Reply to: Message 295 by GDR
01-05-2019 6:09 PM


Re: The Gospels as evidence
GDR writes:

Percy writes:

You're talking nonsense. You can believe by faith that George Washington chopped down a cherry tree, but that doesn't turn it into a historical event. Faith is the last resort of those with no evidence. Actual historical events leave evidence behind. This shouldn't have to be explained.

There is evidence left behind. The NT.

No, there is no evidence left behind. You just like to say there is. Let's do a comparison between the gospels and Harry Potter. This is from Matthew:

quote:
Matthew 28:2 And behold, there was a great earthquake, for an angel of the Lord descended from heaven and came and rolled back the stone and sat on it.

There is no evidence supporting anything in that passage.

This is from Harry Potter and the Sorcerer's Stone:

quote:
Harry saw it. In a great rush of excitement he dived downward after the streak of gold. Slytherin Seeker Terence Higgs had seen it, too. Neck and neck they hurtled toward the Snitch ‐ all the Chasers seemed to have forgotten what they were supposed to be doing as they hung in midair to watch.

There is no evidence supporting anything in that passage, either.

Let's look at Caesar's crossing of the Rubicon. It only happened once. The only evidence is what we have written. All we have are written accounts and subjectively we can accept or reject the accounts.

First you argued that there was evidence left behind, and now you're arguing that such events left no evidence behind, including actual historical events like Caesar's crossing of the Rubicon. You can't even keep your arguments consistent. You're just saying whatever's expedient that pops into your head.

Anyway, based upon your second argument, the lack of evidence, we agree that events with no evidence should be questioned. Historians, many of them and some of them contemporary, wrote of Caesar, and Caesar wrote a great deal himself about his life and military campaigns. There are multiple independent sources for the history of Rome, which is not true of the gospels. About the crossing of the Rubicon, how did Caesar reach Rome if he didn't cross it? If he remained on the other side of the Rubicon, how did he enter Rome with his legion, chase Pompey toward Spain, become dictator, and conduct all his subsequent campaigns.

As I said to ringo, the real argument is not the fact that the Gospels are evidence but how reliable we consider the evidence.

What evidence? You have a made up and fantastical story about amazing events that somehow completely escaped the notice of history. You actually have four stories that draw upon an earlier version and upon each other. And you have Paul's epistles that agree with very little in the gospels. Where Jesus is concerned the NT is not a history.

Percy writes:

So what? The gospels (lowercase) are something you accept on faith, not evidence.

We both keep repeating what we have already said. The Gospels are evidence and I accept the veracity of the accounts of the resurrection by faith.

If the gospels (lowercase) are evidence, cite some specific piece of gospel evidence so that we may discuss it.

Percy writes:

What is wrong is making false claims that evidence-based fields like history and science provide any support for faith-based ideas.

Science provides no support.

Science provides even less than "no support." It says that your miracles are unlikely in the extreme.

However the fact that the early church rose in circumstances that would strongly dictate against it without the resurrection, is historical evidence.

You keep repeating this without addressing the rebuttals. In the end you just ignore the rebuttals and say stuff like, "I stand by what I said," which is just nolo contendere.

Percy writes:

Sure you are. You're trying to prove the gospels historical, but finding it a tough go for lack of evidence.

Why keep using the word "prove". I have stated categorically several times that there is no proof, and that it can't be proven. I don't think I can be any clearer.

Then why do you keep arguing for the historicity of the gospels if it's merely something you accept on faith?

Percy writes:

The gospels (lowercase) contain no objective evidence for their religious claims.

I agree. However we do objectively know that the Gospels exist.

Of course we objectively know the gospels (lowercase - just can't keep your little finger off that shift key, can you) exist. And we objectively know the Harry Potter books exist. That they objectively exist is not objective evidence for any of their content. This shouldn't have to be explained.

Two of them clearly state that they were compiled in order to provide an account of the facts.

In other words, two of them state, "Trust me," and your answer is, "Okay, sure."

We know that objectively. We subjectively form our own conclusions about their veracity and by faith, not knowledge, we accept our conclusions.

So by your own admission the objective existence of the gospels is not objective evidence of their content, which must be accepted on faith. History is not accepted on faith. The gospels are not history.

--Percy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 295 by GDR, posted 01-05-2019 6:09 PM GDR has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 312 by NosyNed, posted 01-06-2019 11:07 AM Percy has responded
 Message 314 by GDR, posted 01-06-2019 8:07 PM Percy has responded

    
NosyNed
Member
Posts: 8829
From: Canada
Joined: 04-04-2003
Member Rating: 4.2


Message 312 of 374 (846452)
01-06-2019 11:07 AM
Reply to: Message 311 by Percy
01-06-2019 10:11 AM


The gospels are evidence!
I disagree here. The gospels are evidence and the JK Rowling books are kind of evidence too.

The issue is how reliable are they? The Rowling books are explicitly stated by the author to be unreliable evidence (i.e., fiction) for the existance of Hogwarts.

The gospels might therefore be taken as a tich more "reliable" than the Harry Potter series.

But, as you suggest (but could be clearer about), it takes other sources of evidence to support a written work as reliable.

In addition, other than some minor things (e.g., the warning about the ides of march), the written material from Roman times is not flooded with magic and the supernatural which is part of the evidence against the reliability of the gospels.

So I agree with GDR, the NT is evidence. However, it is a demonstration of how weak his case is because it is such obviously poor evidence.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 311 by Percy, posted 01-06-2019 10:11 AM Percy has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 313 by Percy, posted 01-06-2019 7:45 PM NosyNed has not yet responded
 Message 319 by ringo, posted 01-07-2019 11:16 AM NosyNed has not yet responded

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 18249
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 4.0


Message 313 of 374 (846460)
01-06-2019 7:45 PM
Reply to: Message 312 by NosyNed
01-06-2019 11:07 AM


Re: The gospels are evidence!
NosyNed writes:

I disagree here. The gospels are evidence and the JK Rowling books are kind of evidence too.
...
<rest of message not included>

I discussed this already in my earlier reply to you, Message 298. If you just missed it then the answers lie there. If you ignored it then I don't understand.

--Percy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 312 by NosyNed, posted 01-06-2019 11:07 AM NosyNed has not yet responded

    
GDR
Member
Posts: 4773
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 314 of 374 (846461)
01-06-2019 8:07 PM
Reply to: Message 311 by Percy
01-06-2019 10:11 AM


Re: The Gospels as evidence
GDR writes:

Let's look at Caesar's crossing of the Rubicon. It only happened once. The only evidence is what we have written. All we have are written accounts and subjectively we can accept or reject the accounts.

Percy writes:

First you argued that there was evidence left behind, and now you're arguing that such events left no evidence behind, including actual historical events like Caesar's crossing of the Rubicon. You can't even keep your arguments consistent. You're just saying whatever's expedient that pops into your head.

Anyway, based upon your second argument, the lack of evidence, we agree that events with no evidence should be questioned. Historians, many of them and some of them contemporary, wrote of Caesar, and Caesar wrote a great deal himself about his life and military campaigns. There are multiple independent sources for the history of Rome, which is not true of the gospels. About the crossing of the Rubicon, how did Caesar reach Rome if he didn't cross it? If he remained on the other side of the Rubicon, how did he enter Rome with his legion, chase Pompey toward Spain, become dictator, and conduct all his subsequent campaigns.

Please read what I wrote. I did not say that there is no evidence left behind. I simply said that the evidence is contained in written accounts. Historical events usually don't leave physical evidence behind. Yes, there is written evidence of Caesar's crossing the Rubicon.

You then go on to argue that the evidence for the crossing is stronger as there are independent sources confirming it. What you are in essence saying is that the evidence for the crossing is stronger than the evidence for the resurrection. I'll take that as true, and will even add that the crossing requires less evidence as there is nothing in that that calls for the suspension of scientific laws.

However, regardless in saying what you said you are saying that the Gospels (I capitalize it out of respect), are evidence, but just very weak evidence.

Percy writes:

If the gospels (lowercase) are evidence, cite some specific piece of gospel evidence so that we may discuss it.

I'm not sure why you are asking this but the whole NT exists because of the resurrection. Here is one account.
quote:
On the Road to Emmaus
13 Now that same day two of them were going to a village called Emmaus, about seven miles from Jerusalem. 14 They were talking with each other about everything that had happened. 15 As they talked and discussed these things with each other, Jesus himself came up and walked along with them; 16 but they were kept from recognizing him. 17 He asked them, “What are you discussing together as you walk along?”They stood still, their faces downcast. 18 One of them, named Cleopas, asked him, “Are you the only one visiting Jerusalem who does not know the things that have happened there in these days?” 19 “What things?” he asked. “About Jesus of Nazareth,” they replied. “He was a prophet, powerful in word and deed before God and all the people. 20 The chief priests and our rulers handed him over to be sentenced to death, and they crucified him; 21 but we had hoped that he was the one who was going to redeem Israel. And what is more, it is the third day since all this took place. 22 In addition, some of our women amazed us. They went to the tomb early this morning 23 but didn’t find his body. They came and told us that they had seen a vision of angels, who said he was alive. 24 Then some of our companions went to the tomb and found it just as the women had said, but they did not see Jesus.” 25 He said to them, “How foolish you are, and how slow to believe all that the prophets have spoken! 26 Did not the Messiah have to suffer these things and then enter his glory?” 27 And beginning with Moses and all the Prophets, he explained to them what was said in all the Scriptures concerning himself. 28 As they approached the village to which they were going, Jesus continued on as if he were going farther. 29 But they urged him strongly, “Stay with us, for it is nearly evening; the day is almost over.” So he went in to stay with them. 30 When he was at the table with them, he took bread, gave thanks, broke it and began to give it to them. 31 Then their eyes were opened and they recognized him, and he disappeared from their sight. 32 They asked each other, “Were not our hearts burning within us while he talked with us on the road and opened the Scriptures to us?” 33 They got up and returned at once to Jerusalem. There they found the Eleven and those with them, assembled together 34 and saying, “It is true! The Lord has risen and has appeared to Simon.” 35 Then the two told what had happened on the way, and how Jesus was recognized by them when he broke the bread.

I know that you will reject this account on numerous grounds. However it does show that the compiler of the Gospel is confirming Jesus' resurrection.

GDR writes:

However the fact that the early church rose in circumstances that would strongly dictate against it without the resurrection, is historical evidence.

Percy writes:

You keep repeating this without addressing the rebuttals. In the end you just ignore the rebuttals and say stuff like, "I stand by what I said," which is just nolo contendere.

I have gone into the details before and they are refuted. You obviously totally reject my beliefs largely based on your belief that science dictates that the resurrection can't possibly be historical. Fair enough. I believe that there is reality beyond the world of science. It becomes a matter of belief and if it is considered as an impossibility in the first place there isn't a lot of point in trying to present the case all over again. I've done that numerous times over the years. I don't expect to convince anyone that isn't already convinced. It is just an attempt to put my position out there.

Percy writes:

Then why do you keep arguing for the historicity of the gospels if it's merely something you accept on faith?

I believe that the resurrection is historical. I don't have conclusive evidence that I am correct. However, I have faith that I am correct, and with that faith I understand Jesus' life and message to be representative of a God of love, and then work out what that means to my life and how I live it.

Percy writes:

So by your own admission the objective existence of the gospels is not objective evidence of their content, which must be accepted on faith. History is not accepted on faith. The gospels are not history.

No, the content is objective evidence but we subjectively come to a conclusion about their veracity. If we come to the conclusion that the resurrection is historical we have varying degrees of faith in our conclusion.

Edited by Admin, : Fix first quote. It was originally attributed to Percy but was actually from GDR.


He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 311 by Percy, posted 01-06-2019 10:11 AM Percy has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 334 by Percy, posted 01-07-2019 5:01 PM GDR has responded

    
Percy
Member
Posts: 18249
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 4.0


Message 315 of 374 (846462)
01-06-2019 8:14 PM
Reply to: Message 297 by GDR
01-05-2019 6:50 PM


Re: Calling evil good or good evil.
GDR writes:

I believe that the resurrected Jesus was experienced in a body that bridged our universe and God's universe.

This is closer to Unitarianism than Anglicanism, and to science fiction than to either.

I haven't commented on the claims of other religions and I have already stated that there are things that are consistent.

Yeah, like their focus on the fantastical.

If we read the first part of the Book of Buddha we find essentially the same social message proclaimed by Jesus.

You're just repeating yourself while ignoring what I already said in reply to this. Have you forgotten, or is this some weird kind of debating strategy?

I am quite prepared to accept that it was a revelation from God.

This is just more "I stand by what I said," more nolo contendere.

I have put a lot of time into understanding the concept of resurrection in its historical Jewish context.

Two questions: 1) Why do you mention this but then say nothing about it? 2) How is this rebuttal to the fact that miracles are one of the identifying characteristics of religion?

I haven't put that same time into other religious claims so I won't offer an opinion one way or the other.

That miracles are a common element of many religions is just common knowledge, not something that requires study. You're being evasive.

The claims of the miraculous in other religions, whether historical or not, has nothing to do with the claim of the resurrection of Jesus Christ.

Now you're in denial.

Richard Feynman: "The first principle is that you must not fool yourself and you are the easiest person to fool." You're constructing your own fantasy world and then telling yourself that it's real.

--Percy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 297 by GDR, posted 01-05-2019 6:50 PM GDR has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 331 by GDR, posted 01-07-2019 3:58 PM Percy has responded

    
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