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Author Topic:   A Way to Think About Free Will and God: Open Theism
ringo
Member
Posts: 16806
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 3.4


Message 316 of 374 (846468)
01-07-2019 10:47 AM
Reply to: Message 289 by GDR
01-05-2019 5:23 PM


Re: Calling evil good or good evil.
GDR writes:

Of course it is historical evidence. What you are talking about is its reliability.


The Bible is evidence that the Bible was written. We can not conclude from that evidence that anything in the Bible is true.

GDR writes:

I have agreed that if the resurrection is historical then it happened outside of the laws of known science. Your point is that the laws of science are immutable and as a result resurrection is impossible.


You're saying it backwards. If something is possible, we can determine whether or not it happened.

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 289 by GDR, posted 01-05-2019 5:23 PM GDR has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 332 by GDR, posted 01-07-2019 4:09 PM ringo has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 16806
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 3.4


Message 317 of 374 (846470)
01-07-2019 11:04 AM
Reply to: Message 297 by GDR
01-05-2019 6:50 PM


Re: Calling evil good or good evil.
GDR writes:

I don't believe that He came back to life as we know it. I believe that the resurrected Jesus was experienced in a body that bridged our universe and God's universe.


That isn't what resurrection means. You've been wasting everybody's time by claiming that you believe in the resurrection.

If He came back in a different spooky body, the wounds that He showed off were counterfeit and His whole "proof" that He was alive was a lie.


And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 297 by GDR, posted 01-05-2019 6:50 PM GDR has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 333 by GDR, posted 01-07-2019 4:14 PM ringo has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 16806
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 3.4


Message 318 of 374 (846471)
01-07-2019 11:08 AM
Reply to: Message 303 by Thugpreacha
01-06-2019 7:55 AM


Re: Calling evil good or good evil.
Phat writes:

... having little or no respect for Paul smacks of uninformed arrogance. Where are your credentials?


Where are Paul's credentials?

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 303 by Thugpreacha, posted 01-06-2019 7:55 AM Thugpreacha has acknowledged this reply

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 16806
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 3.4


Message 319 of 374 (846472)
01-07-2019 11:16 AM
Reply to: Message 312 by NosyNed
01-06-2019 11:07 AM


Re: The gospels are evidence!
NosyNed writes:

The Rowling books are explicitly stated by the author to be unreliable evidence (i.e., fiction) for the existance of Hogwarts.

The gospels might therefore be taken as a tich more "reliable" than the Harry Potter series.


There are actually (at least) three different categories here:
1. Books that admit to being fiction - e.g. the Harry Potter books
2. Books that are fiction but claim not to be - e.g. Treasure Island, the Bible
3. Books that claim NOT to be fiction - e.g. All the President's Men

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 312 by NosyNed, posted 01-06-2019 11:07 AM NosyNed has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 320 by Thugpreacha, posted 01-07-2019 11:32 AM ringo has responded

  
Thugpreacha
Member
Posts: 12566
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 320 of 374 (846473)
01-07-2019 11:32 AM
Reply to: Message 319 by ringo
01-07-2019 11:16 AM


Re: The gospels are evidence!
You've made up category 2. You have no proof of the claim.

Pauls credentials are usually stated without controversy among scholars. Why do you insist on challenging them? One could ask where your credentials are.

These arguments are far more than simple logic problems. Lots of things can be disproven on paper, but we are interested in whether the rubber meets the road(to Damascus) or not.

I realize that I have invoked a couple of logical fallacies here, but you cant just go and make up a category 2.


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
~Stile


This message is a reply to:
 Message 319 by ringo, posted 01-07-2019 11:16 AM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 321 by ringo, posted 01-07-2019 12:03 PM Thugpreacha has not yet responded
 Message 335 by Percy, posted 01-07-2019 5:17 PM Thugpreacha has not yet responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 16806
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 3.4


Message 321 of 374 (846474)
01-07-2019 12:03 PM
Reply to: Message 320 by Thugpreacha
01-07-2019 11:32 AM


Re: The gospels are evidence!
Phat writes:

You've made up category 2. You have no proof of the claim.


Yes I do. Jim Hawkins claimed that the events in Treasure Island really happened. He even went so far as to have Dr. Livesey narrate the parts that he didn't witness himself.

Phat writes:

Pauls credentials are usually stated without controversy among scholars. Why do you insist on challenging them?


I challenge everything. That's the proper MO. How else can you hope to figure out what's true and what's false?

Phat writes:

One could ask where your credentials are.


I'm not the one who is making claims about Jesus.

Phat writes:

These arguments are far more than simple logic problems. Lots of things can be disproven on paper, but we are interested in whether the rubber meets the road(to Damascus) or not.


You have it backwards. We already know that as far as many Christian claims are concerned, we know that the rubber doesn't meet the road at all.

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 320 by Thugpreacha, posted 01-07-2019 11:32 AM Thugpreacha has not yet responded

  
Thugpreacha
Member
Posts: 12566
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 322 of 374 (846475)
01-07-2019 12:50 PM
Reply to: Message 308 by Tangle
01-06-2019 8:57 AM


Double Post
Double, double toil and trouble;
Fire burn and caldron bubble.

Edited by Phat, : double post


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
~Stile


This message is a reply to:
 Message 308 by Tangle, posted 01-06-2019 8:57 AM Tangle has not yet responded

  
Thugpreacha
Member
Posts: 12566
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


(1)
Message 323 of 374 (846476)
01-07-2019 12:50 PM
Reply to: Message 308 by Tangle
01-06-2019 8:57 AM


It Never Would Have Spread Otherwise
Tangle writes:

Paul never met Jesus, yet the Christian church would not exist without him.

More precisely, the Christian Church would never exist if Jesus had never risen. Nobody would have ever heard of Him. You claim essentially that Paul took up the "myth" and ran with it to spread his own franchise, but that franchise never would have taken off either had the story never happened.

Acts 5:34-39 writes:


But a Pharisee named Gamaliel, a teacher of the law, who was honored by all the people, stood up in the Sanhedrin and ordered that the men be put outside for a little while. 35 Then he addressed them: "Men of Israel, consider carefully what you intend to do to these men. 36 Some time ago Theudas appeared, claiming to be somebody, and about four hundred men rallied to him. He was killed, all his followers were dispersed, and it all came to nothing. 37 After him, Judas the Galilean appeared in the days of the census and led a band of people in revolt. He too was killed, and all his followers were scattered. 38 Therefore, in the present case I advise you: Leave these men alone! Let them go! For if their purpose or activity is of human origin, it will fail. 39 But if it is from God, you will not be able to stop these men; you will only find yourselves fighting against God." NIV

The story never would have spread with such fervor...especially in the modern era.

Edited by Phat, : No reason given.


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
~Stile


This message is a reply to:
 Message 308 by Tangle, posted 01-06-2019 8:57 AM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 324 by Tangle, posted 01-07-2019 1:07 PM Thugpreacha has responded
 Message 336 by Percy, posted 01-07-2019 5:35 PM Thugpreacha has acknowledged this reply
 Message 338 by Theodoric, posted 01-07-2019 5:55 PM Thugpreacha has acknowledged this reply

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 6950
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 5.1


Message 324 of 374 (846477)
01-07-2019 1:07 PM
Reply to: Message 323 by Thugpreacha
01-07-2019 12:50 PM


Re: It Never Would Have Spread Otherwise
Phat writes:

More precisely, the Christian Church would never exist if Jesus had never risen. Nobody would have ever heard of Him. You claim essentially that Paul took up the "myth" and ran with it to spread his own franchise, but that franchise never would have taken off either had the story never happened.

That's nonsense. There are plenty of religions that have developed purely from myth without the slightest chance of their miraculous claims being true - Mormonism is just one in modern times.

All that's required is a story and enough people to propagate it. The fact that the main instigator had never heard any of the stories first hand should ring huge alarm bells. When you then find that 'Paul's writings are by four different people you should be even more alarmed. In fact 'Paul' didn't need Jesus to exist at all let alone be ressurected, all he needed was the stories.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 323 by Thugpreacha, posted 01-07-2019 12:50 PM Thugpreacha has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 325 by Thugpreacha, posted 01-07-2019 1:22 PM Tangle has responded

  
Thugpreacha
Member
Posts: 12566
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 325 of 374 (846478)
01-07-2019 1:22 PM
Reply to: Message 324 by Tangle
01-07-2019 1:07 PM


Re: It Never Would Have Spread Otherwise
Mormons piggybacked on Christianity. Without the Bible, the Book of Mormon never would have stood on its own.

Evidence from their own website

Edited by Phat, : No reason given.


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
~Stile


This message is a reply to:
 Message 324 by Tangle, posted 01-07-2019 1:07 PM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 326 by Tangle, posted 01-07-2019 1:26 PM Thugpreacha has responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 6950
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 5.1


Message 326 of 374 (846479)
01-07-2019 1:26 PM
Reply to: Message 325 by Thugpreacha
01-07-2019 1:22 PM


Re: It Never Would Have Spread Otherwise
Phat writes:

Mormons piggybacked on Christianity. Without the Bible, the Book of Mormon never would have stood on its own.

And Christianity piggybacked on Judaism (and Paganism). The New Testament could never have stood on its own

Edited by Tangle, : embarassing spelling....


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 325 by Thugpreacha, posted 01-07-2019 1:22 PM Thugpreacha has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 327 by Thugpreacha, posted 01-07-2019 1:30 PM Tangle has responded

  
Thugpreacha
Member
Posts: 12566
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 327 of 374 (846481)
01-07-2019 1:30 PM
Reply to: Message 326 by Tangle
01-07-2019 1:26 PM


Re: It Never Would Have Spread Otherwise
I'll accept this argument. One could argue, however, that Paganism piggybacked on imagination---the art of making things up. Judaism was not arguably made up.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
~Stile


This message is a reply to:
 Message 326 by Tangle, posted 01-07-2019 1:26 PM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 328 by Tangle, posted 01-07-2019 1:39 PM Thugpreacha has responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 6950
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 5.1


Message 328 of 374 (846482)
01-07-2019 1:39 PM
Reply to: Message 327 by Thugpreacha
01-07-2019 1:30 PM


Re: It Never Would Have Spread Otherwise
Phat writes:

Judaism was not arguably made up.

Of course it was, they all are. That's why there's so many of them.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 327 by Thugpreacha, posted 01-07-2019 1:30 PM Thugpreacha has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 329 by Thugpreacha, posted 01-07-2019 1:43 PM Tangle has responded

  
Thugpreacha
Member
Posts: 12566
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 329 of 374 (846483)
01-07-2019 1:43 PM
Reply to: Message 328 by Tangle
01-07-2019 1:39 PM


Re: It Never Would Have Spread Otherwise
Ahhh the old "seen one seen em all" argument. The problem is, you haven't even seen One yet. Just as you never saw Santa Claus, right? Wrong. They all are not the same.

But let's take a break and go fishing. maybe you can teach me something I need to know.


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
~Stile


This message is a reply to:
 Message 328 by Tangle, posted 01-07-2019 1:39 PM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 330 by Tangle, posted 01-07-2019 3:20 PM Thugpreacha has not yet responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 6950
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 5.1


Message 330 of 374 (846490)
01-07-2019 3:20 PM
Reply to: Message 329 by Thugpreacha
01-07-2019 1:43 PM


Re: It Never Would Have Spread Otherwise
Phat writes:

Ahhh the old "seen one seen em all" argument.

I've definitely seen one. Or actually a couple of flavours of one (there being 38,000 flavours of Christianity alone.)

The problem is, you haven't even seen One yet.

You mean the One you believe in, that's different to the One Faith believes in? Or is it the One GDR believes in?

The normal answer is that they're all the same at base, well if that's the case then I have met the One, 'cos I believed the same crap you do when I was a kid. Sadly, I'm afraid to say he's just as fake as all the rest. I had an epiphany.

Just as you never saw Santa Claus, right? Wrong. They all are not the same.

They are exactly the same in that everyone that believes them believes in them the same way that you do. Many with less doubt.

But let's take a break and go fishing.

That's not going to work, it's closed season.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 329 by Thugpreacha, posted 01-07-2019 1:43 PM Thugpreacha has not yet responded

  
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