Understanding through Discussion


Welcome! You are not logged in. [ Login ]
EvC Forum active members: 57 (9054 total)
59 online now:
PaulK (1 member, 58 visitors)
Newest Member: EWolf
Post Volume: Total: 888,321 Year: 5,967/14,102 Month: 115/438 Week: 47/112 Day: 2/8 Hour: 0/0


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   Exposing the evolution theory. Part 2
Tangle
Member
Posts: 8236
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.8


Message 20 of 294 (844687)
12-04-2018 3:18 AM
Reply to: Message 17 by Porkncheese
12-03-2018 10:08 PM


Re: Thread Copied from Proposed New Topics Forum
This is a jumble of ill-considered opinion, I'll just make a couple of general comments.

1. We love to be questioned, it's the entire purpose of the place. But if you do it in a dumb and garbled way, you'll get told that your questioning is dumb and garbled.

2. We would prefer that if you open a thread that you stick around to defend what you say, but we understand that life gets in the way and sometimes that's not possible. But what you don't then do is open another thread instead.

3. You really need to get yourself straight about this evolution=atheism stuff. It's not just wrong, it's a lie. There are a few atheists here but there are more believers. With one or two exceptions all accept the ToE. Across the Western world believers are in the majority and most scientists are believers of some sort or another. With very, very few exceptions all scientists accept the ToE regadless of their religious or other views. You've been told a lie, please don't repeat it.

The ToE is just another branch of science it has nothing to do with religion. It doesn't care what people believe, it simply reports what's observed. You saw that from Darwin himself.

Those that discovered that the earth was very old 200 years ago were Christians that set out to find evidence that it was young to verify the bible stories. They were forced to accept the opposite - because like Darwin, they followed the evidence.

Please do the same.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 17 by Porkncheese, posted 12-03-2018 10:08 PM Porkncheese has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 22 by Porkncheese, posted 12-04-2018 7:32 AM Tangle has responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 8236
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.8


(2)
Message 24 of 294 (844697)
12-04-2018 7:57 AM
Reply to: Message 22 by Porkncheese
12-04-2018 7:32 AM


Re: Thread Copied from Proposed New Topics Forum
Listen dickhead, if you don't do anything else, learn that evolution has nothing whatsoever to do with atheism.

The vast, overwhelming majority of those that accept evolution are not atheists. The overwhelming majority of scientists that work in the field are not atheists. Darwin himself was a Christian. Even the Catholic church accepts evolution as fact.

Get your head into the right place and you may be able to sustain a rational argument, blather on like you do here, talking nonsense, and you've lost any argument you want to make before you start..

Edited by Tangle, : No reason given.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 22 by Porkncheese, posted 12-04-2018 7:32 AM Porkncheese has not yet responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 8236
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.8


(1)
Message 51 of 294 (844769)
12-05-2018 6:34 AM
Reply to: Message 45 by Porkncheese
12-05-2018 4:31 AM


Re: Survey
P&C writes:

100 scientists were surveyed and asked
What are the chances of ToE being completely correct?
Answers varied from 0% to 100%

Varying levels of FAITH as some BELIEVE it more than others
Hardly a science when they can't even agree on it

One of the promises you made to us (and immediately broke) was that you'd present your arguments to the highest scientific standard. A very basic of this is to to properly reference your source.

So you'll see this a lot...

“Source please”


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 45 by Porkncheese, posted 12-05-2018 4:31 AM Porkncheese has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 52 by Pressie, posted 12-05-2018 7:05 AM Tangle has not yet responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 8236
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.8


Message 68 of 294 (844849)
12-06-2018 1:55 PM


I think what we're witnessing here is evidence of absense.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 8236
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.8


Message 256 of 294 (849035)
02-21-2019 5:21 PM


It's quite interesting how far creatists have come over the last couple of centuries.

When Darwin was working on the problem of how species arose the widespread belief was that species were immutable, that god created all the living things on earth as they are seen today; unchangeable and unchanging, his perfect creation.

Now even the most ardent YEC allows for divergence within what they call kinds from leaving the ark and the ID movement accepts evolution from simple to complex but claim that the development of species is directed by god.

It's an enormous volte-face that would have their Christian predecessors crying heresy and demanding burning at the stake.

They're being backed into a tight corner which is already pretty full of other flat earth, tin hat science deniers. As even more discoveries will be found, that corner is going to get even smaller and even wilder claims will be made. I'd love to be around in another 100 years to see what becomes of them.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 8236
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.8


(2)
Message 262 of 294 (849053)
02-22-2019 6:19 PM
Reply to: Message 258 by WookieeB
02-22-2019 1:19 PM


Re: Older never responded to message
Wookie8 writes:

Conflation and Ad-Hominem. Nice way to avoid the science in a this-is-supposed-to-be-a-science-forum.

So no attempt to take on the points made then? Creationists accept that life is no longer immutable and evolution happens. Heresy!

Love this because in reality it is applying much better to Dawinian explanations. It seems that new papers are coming out weekly that put another nail into the old evolutionary explanations and the ID paradigm is becoming stronger.

ID was stillborn years ago. I remember being really excited about it but when I went to study it, it fell apart almost immediately. Just more religiously motivated nonsense - stronger? It's been dead for years.

As for Darwinian explanations, it seems that creationists are keener on them than scientists. He was 150 years ago, before the discovery of the gene. I suppose it's something about their desire to find absolute truth in an ancient book. Science isn't like that Wookie - it moves on. We know there's more to evolution that Darwin could possibly imagine. We also know that it doesn't require an invisible, enevidenced and unnecessary intervention to work.

No wonder that more and more scientists are publicly coming out as skeptical of claims for the ability of random mutation and natural selection to account for the complexity of life.

Who do you think you're fooling? Is it yourself?


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 258 by WookieeB, posted 02-22-2019 1:19 PM WookieeB has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 265 by Tanypteryx, posted 02-22-2019 10:04 PM Tangle has not yet responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 8236
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.8


Message 266 of 294 (849063)
02-23-2019 3:11 AM
Reply to: Message 263 by Tempe 12ft Chicken
02-22-2019 6:39 PM


Re: I see not much has changed
Chicken writes:

Wookie was asking for an example of poor design, so I would guess I need to point out the Giraffe Weekend: The Recurrent Laryngeal Nerve

I would also offer the pancreatic cancer which is currently killing my brother-in-law. The only respect that that could be considered good design is if the designer was a psychpathic torturer - in which case it's exquisite.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 263 by Tempe 12ft Chicken, posted 02-22-2019 6:39 PM Tempe 12ft Chicken has not yet responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 8236
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.8


(1)
Message 275 of 294 (849110)
02-25-2019 4:18 AM


Biology has been able to explain how organic life evolved on earth and geology astrophysics explains how inorganic material formed - and still forms - non-living structure. All are natural processes.
We still do not know how life began, that's work in progress.

I can look at a chair and say that it looks like someone made it - because I have experience of things that are made and things that occur naturally. I don't need to see the carpenter and get his evidence because I know how this all works - i've seen it and done it myself. But for non made-made things that have natural explanations for their existence, I really need you to produce this designer otherwise there's a very big and important piece of the explanation missing. But you can't do this.

Even worse, I know, and you know and everybody involved knows, that this whole thing is religious. You are not standing back objectively and saying 'I don't know who or what the designer is', you're saying goddidit, to each other but not to us. Claiming it's neutral is bullshit and harms whatever weak arguments you have because it shows that you are dishonest and have a not well hidden agenda that is non-scientific.

Neither of those things would matter if you could actually prove any of your claims - facts are fact no matter what motivates their discovery. But the sad facts are that you don't have any facts; everything you claim has been debunked. It doesn't stand up. You are unable to produce any real evidence. You even mention the bloody flagella for god's sake; something that has been shown not to be IC because all the parts necessary for it are available to it. I mean really??

You need to do a lot better than this and start answering questions properly, how do you know that something is designed if we have no experience or knowledge of the designer and we have natural explanations for what we see? Why is this outside influence necessary and why can't I see anything that can't be explained by a process that is already understood?

You're not talking to the congregation now, we've all seen these arguments before and there are some here with real scientific knowledge, bluffing isn't going to work.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


Replies to this message:
 Message 276 by Phat, posted 02-25-2019 9:13 AM Tangle has responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 8236
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.8


Message 277 of 294 (849116)
02-25-2019 9:40 AM
Reply to: Message 276 by Phat
02-25-2019 9:13 AM


Re: Producing The Producer
Phat writes:

It would seem a bit of a chore to simply make God appear. You will say "of course...because he does not exist!"

Yup. Annoying I suppose but ...

but you really can't expect anyone to "produce" anything whether he existed or he didn't.

I do if they expect me to take any notice of their ideas. It's a simple fact that they say design but can't prove it by showing a designer. And sadly simply saying it's designed is not convincing anyone who isn't already a creationist - because we have natural processes that 'create' these things.

Without presenting the designer, all your friend can do is fabricate reasons why the natural processes that we have identified can't do some of the things that we say they do. They have been unable to show this. And in most cases they're just arguments from ignorance.

I suppose I could put in a prayer asking Him to get tangles attention. You will likely trot out the statistics (that you love) and show me how it has been proven that prayer does nothing.

I don't have to trot out statistics do I? You can test it empirically yourself right now. Pray and prove me wrong. Prayer hs never worked for you has it.

Maybe we best just call it a day and go fishing.

It's always best to go fishing, but if you want to convince anyone of any argument, you're going to have to produce some hard facts, not waffle.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 276 by Phat, posted 02-25-2019 9:13 AM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 278 by Phat, posted 02-25-2019 10:07 AM Tangle has responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 8236
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.8


Message 279 of 294 (849120)
02-25-2019 10:59 AM
Reply to: Message 278 by Phat
02-25-2019 10:07 AM


Re: Producing The Producer
Phat writes:

I've no problem believing that He can hypothetically do anything.

Except help you with your problems and make this place happy and healthy for everyone it seems.

Which does not mean that He is simply magic at my imaginative whim.

Well there's your paradox again. He can do everything, but not that. God meet meatloaf.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 278 by Phat, posted 02-25-2019 10:07 AM Phat has not yet responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 8236
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.8


Message 289 of 294 (849160)
02-26-2019 6:42 PM
Reply to: Message 288 by WookieeB
02-26-2019 5:33 PM


Re: problems with detecting design
Wookie writes:

If I found a nest in a tree, based on characteristics of that nest, I could realistically infer that it was designed.I would not have to know whether it was from a finch or an eagle, or a seagull. I wouldn't even have to say that a bird did it necessarily, a human could have made it. None of that information matters other than that I could identify it was made by a process other than random/natural (non-mind) means.

Mankind has never seen anything like this bundle of twigs before. But it's made out of twigs and it's in a tree so obviously the tree made it. Exactly how is a mystery; just like the tree. Let's worship the tree, just in case.

It sure looks like lightening is designed, somebody up there is bloody angry, let's call him Zeus (Greek), Thor (Norse), Perun (Slavic), Indra (Hindu), Shago (Yaroba), Santeria (Africa), Candomble (Brazil).

Wow, look at those crystals, they're all slightly different but they all have the same basic geometry. Somebody had to have real intelligence and a plan to make those.

Category error my arse. Unless we know what design looks like we can not infer a designer. If we study your nest on anything but a superficial level we can work out what it is and what it does, because we can see what made it and why. To leap to the assumption that the tree (or god) did it is the grievous error.

Like your nest, we have all the evidence we need to demonstrate that a designer is not necessary for life and rock formations.

So produce your designer and prove us wrong.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 288 by WookieeB, posted 02-26-2019 5:33 PM WookieeB has not yet responded

  
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2018 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.0 Beta
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2021