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Author Topic:   Discussion With A Conservative Pastor: I CANT & Phat Only..for now
Phat
Member
Posts: 13789
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 1 of 47 (845060)
12-11-2018 4:47 AM


GREAT DEBATE: PHAT & ICANT ONLY
I wanted to start a topic with our resident Pastor ICANT. He has been a Pastor for many years and has conservative yet Biblically sound beliefs regarding GOD, Creator of all seen and unseen, and His Son Jesus Christ. First of all, I want to show public respect for this man, because he has stepped outside of his conservative church environment to talk with the liberal and moderate philosophies of this forum. I confess that I was curious what his church was like and so I found them online. Out of respect for Pastor ICANT, I won't share that information publically as that is up to him---but I DO want to start a conversation with him and allow it to develop before opening it up to responses from the rest of our forum.

Here is how it all started.

quote:
I CANT, I thought I would share with you an exchange that I had with my own Pastor, recently.
He likely thinks much the same way that you do, and I know that his reply will be ridiculed here at EvC, but nobody here is as well known by me as he is, and I value his input.

This is the conversation I had with my Pastor here in Denver:

ME --my faith has been tested lately...I believe, but I don't believe in what people tell me I need to believe in.
I believe that Jesus is Lord, that He is alive today and that He is Gods Son, Creator of all seen and unseen, but I do not believe in a word for word literal Bible...that stuff you guys teach about a literal Genesis and all that...makes no sense logically. I refuse to simply shut my eyes tight and declare that I believe THAT!

PASTOR--That’s your pitfall. The foundation of our faith is in Genesis. If you don’t believe that your foundation is built on sand and your faith will never be stable.

ME--I just have to be honest...I can't believe in something that is not logical.
Ken Ham is not a strong Christian, by the way. The reason I come to bug you is that I believe that you are, but my issue is with God and not humans.(although some humans are willfully ignorant)

PASTOR--You want a creator who does things according to your logic. You fail to realize He is beyond what our brains can fathom.

ME--my intelligence is likely my downfall...I wish I could just have the trusting faith of a child, but I must be honest with myself
and yes you have a point...

PASTOR--Your intelligence? Think about that statement. Your intelligence. It’s minuscule in comparison to an infinite God.

ME--I know. that I DO believe!

PASTOR--You.... you are your own issue. You have to learn the all-important lesson of dying to self.

I CANT writes:

Making the statement "Even if" is questioning God's existence.

The reason that I frame my statements that way is to present my belief the way that many people at EvC would understand. jar taught me the idea that God cannot be proven, thus to frame the issue as a belief against reality is more honest than to declare that what I believe is reality.

ICANT then responded:

How do you half believe? That does not seem logical.
If you want to discuss your pastor's conversation I think it would be better to start a thread with this post you made. Put it under Faith and Belief.
I think you have a problem believing Genesis 1:1.
But if you can't believe Genesis 1:1 you won't believe the rest. But if you believe Genesis 1:1 you will have no problem with the Bible. But if you study the Bible you will find in the translations where man put his stamp on it which resulted in mistranslations of words. But the original autographs contain no errors.

If you believe the Bible teaches the junk that Ken Ham puts forth and all the other YEC'S you are going to have trouble with that as it does not agree with the Bible or reality and what can be observed.
So if you would like to discuss what the Bible actually says start the thread as I suggested.

Great Debate, Please. I want to limit the conversation to myself and ICANT ONLY...for the first 50 or so posts. We can open it up to comments later.

Edited by Phat, : No reason given.


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
~Stile


Replies to this message:
 Message 3 by Phat, posted 12-11-2018 11:23 AM Phat has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 13789
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 3 of 47 (845065)
12-11-2018 11:23 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Phat
12-11-2018 4:47 AM


An Invitation And Request For ICANT

Hello, Pastor. First off, I wanted to start this topic in the Great Debate thread because I wanted an opportunity to talk with you about some questions which I have regarding your view and belief as well as how conservative Christianity in general believes and some of my concerns and questions. This is not so much a debate--I don't want to challenge you except as if I were a member of your flock asking questions to you away from the church environment... as if we were on a fishing trip and had time to talk.

You asked me if I believed Genesis 1:1.

I believe that I do. I have a lot of questions, however. It is probably better to address them here than it would be if I were in a Bible Study with the "flock" because I doubt many of them would ever ask such questions nor would they be edified by hearing them. It won't hurt the thick-skinned EvC group, however. I want them to just observe. Are you agreeable?


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
~Stile


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Phat, posted 12-11-2018 4:47 AM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 4 by ICANT, posted 12-12-2018 1:02 AM Phat has responded
 Message 37 by Phat, posted 12-25-2018 6:27 AM Phat has not yet responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 13789
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 6 of 47 (845114)
12-12-2018 10:47 AM
Reply to: Message 5 by Tangle
12-12-2018 3:29 AM


I CANT and Phat ONLY Please.

Edited by Phat, : No reason given.

Edited by Phat, : added comment. I do appreciate Tangles input, but not here not now

Edited by Phat, : No reason given.


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
~Stile


This message is a reply to:
 Message 5 by Tangle, posted 12-12-2018 3:29 AM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 7 by Tangle, posted 12-12-2018 11:03 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 13789
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 8 of 47 (845134)
12-12-2018 12:29 PM
Reply to: Message 4 by ICANT
12-12-2018 1:02 AM


Starting Intro
ICANT writes:

Hi Phat
What took you so long?
I would love to have such a discussion with you. Are you going for 50 posts each or a total of 50 before opening it for comments?

I just want the discussion to be between us for now. Let's go for 50 or so and then re-evaluate. I hope that you and I can find common ground and yet I will be honest in my questions. I have many.

ICANT writes:

My flock which is very small would not have any problem with any question asked in a service. They know how to read the Bible and understand it. I would like to share with you and everyone else here how to accomplish that. It is hard to understand the Bible without first being saved and receiving the Holy Spirit to lead mankind and guide them in all truth. There are five things you need to know to tell a story or understand it.

Yes, I also was taught those same 5 things in church. We had an old parishioner, Joe. He taught me the same 5 things you mention in regards to understanding the Bible. You may have noticed that Tangle interrupted us and added a 6th thing. We can discuss that later, but first, let me tell you that I was taught the same basic principles that your church believes...including the KJV Only thing.

There was one specific example that we were taught contrasting the NIV and the KJV. It was Jesus explaining why the Disciples could not drive some demons out. The scripture was Mark 9:29 and Matthew 17:21. Here is an online commentary regarding the particulars: Prayer and Fasting or just Prayer? Let me just say that in my life, I have extreme insulin resistance and Type II Diabetes. Listening to most doctors does not work. Science has failed to get rid of the problem through drugs. Had I simply extrapolated my sickness to demonic activity, which I don't do by the way.. I would have simply prayed. had I saw your trusty old KJV I would have found my answer: Fasting. Bottom Line: Be it a demon of sickness or be it a metabolic disorder, fasting and prayer together are better than any drug. Mind you I consult Doctors also...im not inclined to hole up in the backwoods with a prayer group alone.

But let's address the whole idea of faith and belief and if it conflicts with science, critical thinking, and basic human wisdom. We can do that a little at a time as my questions come up. But first lets address my salvation. Faith doesnt think I'm saved. Many here at EvC scoff at the whole idea..but of course that is expected. Your church lays out the basic doctrine on their website, as do many churches. And I am the type of guy who questions everything that I have been taught. I don't question that God exists. I even agree with my pastor that I am my own issue and need to die to self. Keep in mind, however, that I am unafraid to question everything .

I do not doubt that Jesus is alive today. I do not doubt that He died for me, (for all of us) was buried, and rose again on the 3rd day. What I DO question is why God would have done it that way. In ways, the stories don't make sense in light of what we know today. In addition, there is lots of evidence that organized religion globally has an agenda apart from heavenly recruitment. Comments?


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
~Stile


This message is a reply to:
 Message 4 by ICANT, posted 12-12-2018 1:02 AM ICANT has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 9 by ICANT, posted 12-12-2018 2:53 PM Phat has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 13789
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 10 of 47 (845165)
12-12-2018 5:59 PM
Reply to: Message 9 by ICANT
12-12-2018 2:53 PM


Phats Early Influences
Perhaps I should start at the beginning. I was born and raised here in Denver and have lived here all of my life. When I was younger, my parents used to take me to our church...a Methodist church. They were part of the post-war migration westward after WW II and were products of both the Great Depression and the war itself. As far as I was told, neither grew up with much religion nor belief. God was never spoken of personally and relationally in our house, but church attendance was encouraged because it gave them a sense of social connection with other like-minded people and they could show me off to the other families...their son in his two tight suit.

To attend church meant that one could claim to be a part of the larger moral and ethical community. The first time that I was introduced to God was by a group of 3 sisters who were among the founders of that particular church. Washington Park East

quote:
Thelittle church started by the Lort Sisters became the Washington Park Methodist Episcopal Church in 1912, but was popularly known then and subsequently as Washington Park Community Church.
In the fall of 1916, the congregation began a campaign for a new building, and John Evans II, grandson of the territorial governor, donated six lots at the northwest corner of South Race and Arizona for the site of a new building. The prominent architectural firm of Willis Marean and Albert Norton designed the building. Work began on the new structure in 1917, and Denver University Chancellor Henry A. Buchtel laid the cornerstone. The building was dedicated on 5 January 1919, with Bishop Francis J. McConnell preaching the first sermon (Note the Wiki Link). The church was one of the architectural gems of the East Washington Park Neighborhood and included a beautiful courtyard and covered walkway reminiscent of a medieval cloister.

Note how the social fabric of South Denver reflected the cohesiveness of a growing community and how the church fit into that lifestyle. My parents, of course, did not arrive until the 1950s and I was born in 1959. When I was 7 or so, the Lort sisters, still alive and in their mid-eighties, still taught Sunday school as they had for many years. There was something different about these ladies...I believe that they were what you call saved.

They had a radiant joy and their love of the Lord was contagious and not at all religious or rehearsed, as it is in many church folk. They had a group of we wayward children who didn't like attending regular service yet who also didn't fit in with the junior high group at the church who met by themselves Wednesday nights. Through the stories they told and the Bible they shared, I became drawn towards Jesus as someone who actually was alive. It was many years before I decided to accept that for myself, however.

ICANT writes:

When it comes to your salvation you know what you did when you first asked God to save you. If you were playing games He did not even hear you. If you were serious and meant business with Him, He gave you eternal life at that moment and you have that eternal life at any moment that ever comes to exist (present perfect tense in the Greek).

Examine your earlier decision and if you meant business with God you can rest assured that He honored His word and gave you eternal life and you became my brother, and we will spend eternity together with God knowing all the answers to the questions we can't find here on earth.

I'm sure that I am saved if in fact it is based on belief and acceptance rather than good works. I talk with God daily.
I recall that I felt a distinct change in my nature and perception when I accepted Jesus into my heart. During my 14 years here at EvC, I have gotten into some discussions which did make sense from my opponents. Take ringo, for instance. He won't claim to be an atheist yet he states that God is fiction. He has no relationship with God, nor did jar, apart from an almost distant deistic approach. Percy is the same way, but I respect these members here as much as I respect you, different though they are. We can discuss certain particulars that I agree with and disagree with.

Edited by Phat, : fixed spelling and added link


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
~Stile


This message is a reply to:
 Message 9 by ICANT, posted 12-12-2018 2:53 PM ICANT has not yet responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 13789
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 11 of 47 (845170)
12-12-2018 6:45 PM


A Rabbit Trail For A Moment

I enjoy putting these posts together. It is refreshing to talk with someone who trusts that I know what I'm doing if I am serious with God.

Addressing the peanut gallery following this thread: I just set up a comment thread for anyone so inclined to comment on what ICANT and I say to one another.

Peanut Gallery Comments on Great Debate As I began telling my story about my parents church, I googled the Lort sisters and found the link from Bishop Francis J. McConnell and noted his belief in Boston Personalism. It appears that he was a learned Bishop. Do you believe that many of the men in the Baptist Convention have similar philosophical interests related to belief yet not Bible specific? Thats a rabbit trail. Basically, the question is whether a man should limit himself to the Bible only or whether you consider it appropriate to discuss spiritual matters philosophically. My personal belief is that it can't hurt. After all, Pastor, you likely discuss many things every day with many people. I am impressed that you are even here at EvC given how conservative you appear to be.

Edited by Phat, : added

Edited by Phat, : No reason given.


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
~Stile


Replies to this message:
 Message 13 by ICANT, posted 12-13-2018 7:12 PM Phat has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 13789
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 12 of 47 (845233)
12-13-2018 3:23 PM
Reply to: Message 9 by ICANT
12-12-2018 2:53 PM


Christian Belief In Debating EvC Forum

EvC Forum challenged my beliefs, but I have to this point kept my belief that God exists, that His character and essence is in Jesus Christ, and that Jesus Christ lives today...eternally in communion with me.

Jar and I really had a big history of going at it in regards to belief. Jar taught me that I can believe yet not prove that God exists, but that IF God exists, God exists regardless what any of us imagine, write about or read about. I learned jars arguments quite well and have studied them in preparation for my discussions here on the forum. Critics would chastise me for allowing my mind to be swayed by unbelievers, but it is my nature to get involved in these discussions, and I will continue to do so. I was never allowed to go as deep with church members or even Pastors...because they simply would never entertain the arguments nor my questions.

The likely reason that Christian believers won't go as deep with me is found in scripture:

Titus 3:9 writes:

But avoid foolish questions, and genealogies, and contentions, and strivings about the law; for they are unprofitable and vain.


2 Timothy 1:3-7 writes:

3As I besought thee to abide still at Ephesus, when I went into Macedonia, that thou mightest charge some that they teach no other doctrine, 4Neither give heed to fables and endless genealogies, which minister questions, rather than godly edifying which is in faith: so do. 5Now the end of the commandment is charity out of a pure heart, and of a good conscience, and of faith unfeigned: 6From which some having swerved have turned aside unto vain jangling; 7Desiring to be teachers of the law; understanding neither what they say, nor whereof they affirm.

Note that Timothy is advised to avoid questioning the Faith. To me, this is a stumbling block to my learning. Tangle is a man with 4 degrees who warns me to avoid you. Jar never had much respect for you, either. Granted they all quibble with you over cosmological science vs what the Bible says...and I won't go into all that except to say that I have watched Faith get torn to shreds in her defense of YEC beliefs and get frustrated because she simply won't consider the evidence provided by the members who actually do have degrees in those fields of discipline. She is a Calvinist all the way and won't question the Bible. I'm guessing that you also are that way, though I hope that as we engage in our dialogue that you will at least listen to any arguments I have regarding the modern critical thinking and questioning and how it relates to what has been historically taught in the faith.

I have no interest in YEC or old earth creationism. I believe that God was the original and initial Creator and I don't care how we got from there to here. My questions are more philosophical and focus on how God thinks and how modern humanity gets along and whether science and Religion can peacefully coexist or not.

ICANT writes:

Sounds like yours is worse than mine. I have been on meds for the last ten years (metformin). But 4 months ago I put myself on the Keto diet. I hate fasting.

Now you have my attention! It takes wisdom to adopt a ketogenic approach to diabetes. As for fasting, that is tough but the research shows that it works well if the body has extreme insulin resistance and the sugars are too high. In regards to this topic, my pastor was right. I am my own issue. I am responsible for my health. Having a donut at the church will throw it all out of whack. Why must all of the refreshments at church be so sweet?

Edited by Phat, : added donut


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
~Stile


This message is a reply to:
 Message 9 by ICANT, posted 12-12-2018 2:53 PM ICANT has not yet responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 13789
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 14 of 47 (845304)
12-14-2018 5:13 AM
Reply to: Message 13 by ICANT
12-13-2018 7:12 PM


Re: A Rabbit Trail For A Moment
ICANT writes:

Being serious with God is the most important thing we can do in this life.

I agree. For me personally, prayer and introspection/contemplation are necessary for my day. I will confess that I lapse occasionally, but when the times get tougher, I pray more often. Of course, we pray at church, but it's easy to do there. It's harder to develop a time of communion and prayer at home alone.
ICANT writes:

We are an independent fundamental Bible Believing Baptist Church answering to no one but God.

Looks intense! I read this link:
Who are the Independent Baptists, and what do they believe?

When people try and share their questions and concerns with you, do you offer any answers to them apart from urging them to study scripture more thoroughly? Have you had difficult parishoners before? How did you address them? Do they still attend? Just curious, Pastor.

ICANT writes:

I was out of the US for 15 years from 1989-2003 and when I came back it was like I was in a foreign country compared to the country I had left. I had to go back overseas for another year and returned in 2006. I then ventured into EvC in 2007 to broaden my knowledge.
I am beginning to think it was a waste of time but every now and then there is a spark that spurs me on. I am in the process of writing a book titled Creation according to Gods Word. In it I will cover the gap theory, the day age theory, the big bang theory, I will even touch on string theory which is not a theory.

I will compare these to what the original Biblical Text says about creation.

Were you on missions trips when you left the US? What were they like? Were you successful? Did you learn anything while on them?

Your book sounds like quite a project. I would like to read it once you have it published. Let me know when it is due to come out.

You being here is not a waste of time,but I think we all are a bit addicted to the internet. Perhaps we need to fast now and then.

Edited by Phat, : No reason given.


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
~Stile


This message is a reply to:
 Message 13 by ICANT, posted 12-13-2018 7:12 PM ICANT has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 15 by ICANT, posted 12-14-2018 12:28 PM Phat has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 13789
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 16 of 47 (845346)
12-14-2018 12:48 PM
Reply to: Message 15 by ICANT
12-14-2018 12:28 PM


Re: A Rabbit Trail For A Moment
Do you ever read any of the ongoing arguments that members here engage in or do you ignore them? Just curious...I wouldn't blame you if you did ignore them.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
~Stile


This message is a reply to:
 Message 15 by ICANT, posted 12-14-2018 12:28 PM ICANT has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 17 by ICANT, posted 12-15-2018 12:39 AM Phat has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 13789
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 18 of 47 (845384)
12-15-2018 11:11 AM
Reply to: Message 17 by ICANT
12-15-2018 12:39 AM


EvC Critics Challenge Orthodox Beliefs
RiverRat, in another topic writes:

Short story, when I first felt the Holy Spirit I felt something so amazing, so wonderful, so full of love that I wanted to share it with everyone. I wanted to be like Jesus. Offending people was the last thing on my mind. Well, I got a big wake up call as I proceeded the next few years trying to share that love. I found myself offending people with it (especially here). The people being offended probably weren't being offended by me per-say but by their pre-conceived notions and ignorance of where I was coming from. I found out that you can never be non-offensive.

Reminds me of the scripture:
Matt 24:9-11 writes:

"Then you will be handed over to be persecuted and put to death, and you will be hated by all nations because of me. 10 At that time many will turn away from the faith and will betray and hate each other...

I have my own share, but many members who do criticize me have also become online penpals. J.A.R. was the most persistent. He would argue with me about what the Bible really said. He always asked me if I had ever read it. When I told him that I had, he would give me his own interpretation, which, admittedly, came from a plain reading of the text yet which never matched up to what I had been taught through many Bible Studies. Ringo is the same way, though Ringo often sharpens me when he points out certain things which I gloss over. So I have some questions. Your own critics claim that you don't know science--at least not the methodology that they have been taught. They will claim that you try to arrive at a meaning using common sense and what you see as wisdom based on scriptural interpretations. Faith does the same thing, which is why she is a YEC. I have always respected much of what our members study here, but I can see that they don't trust that something as simple as a confession, commitment, and belief lead to any sort of proof that the truth found in "way,truth, and life" can ever satisfy scientific questioning.

Do you respect the scientific method? Do you understand it?

Do you see limits on what the Bible can teach about science or do you believe that science itself errors by limiting the Bible?

Do you believe that a sincere man who is open to the possibility that God exists and who is open to the possibility that Jesus is/was more than just human will be accepted by God without having to formally go get baptized by a church?

Can you see why the other side argues the way that they do?

I believe in spiritual warfare, as loony as it may sound to some. I had an experience in my past that confirmed my doubts. Some have urged me to reevaluate what I concluded.

Have you ever seen an actual manifestation of demonic activity?

What confirmed it for you?

Edited by Phat, : No reason given.


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
~Stile


This message is a reply to:
 Message 17 by ICANT, posted 12-15-2018 12:39 AM ICANT has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 19 by ICANT, posted 12-18-2018 3:46 AM Phat has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 13789
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 20 of 47 (845636)
12-18-2018 9:58 AM
Reply to: Message 19 by ICANT
12-18-2018 3:46 AM


Re: EvC Critics Challenge Orthodox Beliefs
One of the biggest arguments which we have had at EvC among those who claim to be believers is the argument over works vs Belief as a means to salvation.

How do you interpret the following scripture?

James 2:14-17 writes:

14 What good is it, my brothers, if a man claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save him? 15 Suppose a brother or sister is without clothes and daily food. 16 If one of you says to him, "Go, I wish you well; keep warm and well fed," but does nothing about his physical needs, what good is it? 17 In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead. NIV

Lets compare the KJV:

James 2:14-17 writes:

14 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?

15 If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,

16 And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?

17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
KJV

In addition, it has recently been brought up that in the parable of the Good Samaritan, help was extended beyond the immediate group. Some believers maintain that the church need only take care of its own. Comments?


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
~Stile


This message is a reply to:
 Message 19 by ICANT, posted 12-18-2018 3:46 AM ICANT has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 21 by Tangle, posted 12-18-2018 10:40 AM Phat has responded
 Message 31 by ICANT, posted 12-22-2018 2:31 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 13789
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 22 of 47 (845640)
12-18-2018 11:00 AM
Reply to: Message 21 by Tangle
12-18-2018 10:40 AM


Re: EvC Critics Challenge Orthodox Beliefs
Thanks, Tangle.

I will say that there is a lot of merit in jar and ringos argument regarding the sheep and the goat's judgment. Even if Christians believe and subjectively *know* that they are saved, it does no harm to humble oneself and reevaluate ones behavior towards others in this world.

God loves humility and introspection leading towards repentance but He despises Pride.

Edited by Phat, : threw in a good message.


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
~Stile


This message is a reply to:
 Message 21 by Tangle, posted 12-18-2018 10:40 AM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 23 by Tangle, posted 12-18-2018 11:02 AM Phat has not yet responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 13789
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 24 of 47 (845718)
12-19-2018 8:55 AM
Reply to: Message 19 by ICANT
12-18-2018 3:46 AM


Re: EvC Critics Challenge Orthodox Beliefs
ICANT writes:

Let me address this a little and if you want to discuss it more bring it up in the debate.

Here it is, and for the sake of this point, allow me to represent the mindset that I believe is at EvC as well as voicing my own belief on the matter. I think I understand how both sides think---both sides meaning the believers and the unbelievers. You, of course, would logically argue that since God is an undeniable fact (Romans 1:18) that it is wise to consider reality from how He likely thinks about such issues...which is, of course, why you are a Pastor. Anyway...allow me to continue and see if I can get this post out... it's 630 am and I must leave in twenty minutes to attend an all-day union meeting. I have been fasting since noon on Monday and feel surprisingly vibrant and full of energy, though my critics will call me an old lightheaded fool!~

ICANT writes:

There is very little difference between me and Tangle.
We are both sinners. But there is a difference. Tangle is a lost sinner and I am a saved sinner.

Which is, I would imagine, the entire purpose of the Great Commission. It is why you teach your flock to go out and reach the lost. To us, Jesus Christ is good news...the best, in fact. To the lost, He is just another figure in History who may not even be the way that the literature described Him as. Thus, for you to introduce Him as your friend, they would have to essentially trust or believe you in order to even consider His acquaintance.
Matthew 10:40 writes:

He that receiveth you receiveth me, and he that receiveth me receiveth him that sent me.

I did not get a glorified body that did not commit sin when I was born again only my spirit was born again and sealed by the Holy Spirit until the day of redemption
Neither of us was condemned because we sinned. Mankind was condemned because the man formed from the dust of the ground disobeyed God and ate the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.
Most of them know what they claim is the sales pitch. They understand what it is that we believe. They may have some trouble accepting that God exists, largely because they see God as a creation of the literature and human belief of the time. They would argue why such a Deity would need to condemn people simply for not believing in Him. Moreover, they would wonder why such a Deity needed to have to die to pay the sin debt of humanity when it was the Deity who initially created the rules in the first place. From our standpoint, God loves everyone at EvC every bit as much as He has loved and adopted your flock and my family. Critics would read the Bible and point out that God seems to want to kill a lot of people...and they wonder what good it would do to accept such a God or to receive Him.

Tangle is still condemned because he does not believe in God and therefore has never trusted God to save him from the bondage he was sold into.
It is true that Tangle considers all of this made up. Keep in mind, however, that Tangle would need to trust the salesman before accepting the sale. If he does not receive the message, it is likely because he does not trust the messenger.

I, on the other hand, believe in God and have trusted Him to save me and give me eternal life. So I received a full pardon and am justified before God. But I am still a sinner. That is a battle I have to fight on a daily basis. I just have to try to get better every day.
We all do, Pastor. Comments?

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
~Stile


This message is a reply to:
 Message 19 by ICANT, posted 12-18-2018 3:46 AM ICANT has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 25 by ICANT, posted 12-19-2018 12:45 PM Phat has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 13789
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 26 of 47 (845773)
12-20-2018 1:42 PM
Reply to: Message 25 by ICANT
12-19-2018 12:45 PM


Re: EvC Critics Challenge Orthodox Beliefs
What do you think of Calvinism? How about Mid Acts Dispensationalism?

ICANT writes:

A person is condemned because the man formed from the dust of the ground disobeyed God and ate the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. That disobedience separated God and mankind and also brought with it physical death.

Critics would point out that the first man and woman wouldn't have known any better. After all, did they initially know God? Were they given an understanding of who He was and what they were expected to do in life or did they just disobey out of curiosity?

ICANT writes:

God took on the form of man and came down to earth in the form of a man we call Jesus and died on the cross to make a way mankind could be reunited with God, as the first man was before he ate the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. He should have been call Emmanuel (Mat 1:23) which means God with us but men just refuse to obey God.

What happens if we received the free full pardon and asked God into our hearts but later on again disobeyed God? I would think that all Christians have disobeyed Him at least once. Critics argue that since Christians believe they are forgiven they are not as worried about sinning or disobedience.

Finally...lets take Stile as an example. He chooses to not believe, but is a good person.

Yes, I know we all sin...but aside from that, what if a person such as Stile did as many good works as the members of your flock? Why would God punish him simply for not believing? Seems as if that gives too much power to satans influence after the Fall. And finally, if God created a free-willed Lucifer who chose to rebel and become satan, isnt evil indirectly Gods fault?

Edited by Phat, : No reason given.

Edited by Phat, : No reason given.


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
~Stile


This message is a reply to:
 Message 25 by ICANT, posted 12-19-2018 12:45 PM ICANT has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 27 by ICANT, posted 12-21-2018 4:32 AM Phat has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 13789
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 28 of 47 (845821)
12-21-2018 9:47 AM
Reply to: Message 27 by ICANT
12-21-2018 4:32 AM


Jesus: Plan A or Plan B?
ICANT writes:

Satan was never under grace and so he has never fallen. He still roams the halls of heaven, and will until the end time.

Interesting. Let me pin this belief down a little more. First, our critics will argue that not all of these beliefs are firmly rooted in the Bible. They point to the whole original sin doctrine. They also mention that many Christian beliefs came from Milton and Dante. But lets get hypothetical, back to the angels. OK.
So 2/3 stayed with God and 1/3 fell. In a sense, the 1/3 represented the very essence of what free will means for humans. They were allowed to disagree. Just as humans are allowed to question, challenge, and even ignore God.

So were 1/3 not under Grace? Implying that God kept the 2/3 by His Grace? Or did all of the angels have free will and, if so, was it just destiny that 1/3 fell and 2/3 stayed loyal?

So along comes humans. You claim that Adam had essentially the same choice as the angels. He walked with God. Thus he must have known Gods character. His sin was in allowing his wife to make her own choices? Or....what specifically?? And was it all meant to happen anyway, or did God say "oops...now I need Jesus"?

In other words, was Jesus plan A from the beginning or was Jesus a necessary plan B after the Fall?

Phat writes:

I do not doubt that Jesus is alive today. I do not doubt that He died for me, (for all of us) was buried, and rose again on the 3rd day. What I DO question is why God would have done it that way. In ways, the stories don't make sense in light of what we know today.


ICANT writes:

Do you question why or do just not understand why God would do things the way He did?

I don't fully understand. And to be honest, I firmly believe that it is OK to not understand. It is OK to question what I have been taught. I have chosen to take a stand in faith not to doubt it. I believe that I owe God my trust. Critics are not so sure. They not only question. They doubt. They often convince themselves through study that God does not exist. A product of human invention. I do not believe as they do.
Jar is (again) the one who attempted to introduce doubt in my mind. And one particular behavior that jar did which causes me to question his spirit is the fact that he violently opposed you. Insulted you. Denigrated you. Many of your opponents do likewise.
Google Dictionary writes:

verb
verb denigrate 3rd person present denigrates past tense denigrated past participle denigrated gerund or present participle denigrating
criticize unfairly; disparage.
disparage belittle deprecate decry cast aspersions on criticize attack speak ill of give someone a bad name defame slander libel run down abuse insult revile malign vilify slur badmouth dis pull to pieces talk smack


Now...I can understand why you frustrate the science minded ones when you dialogue with them. They were taught critical thinking yet were not taught that the Bible has any worth or value. You were taught this. But I have a suspicion that what we see is a bit of spiritual war. The inner spirits. Anyway...back to jar. This is a summation of some things he has said here at EvC over the years:
jar writes:

I do believe that Jesus is GOD but while he was here on earth He was fully man, human, just like you, just like me.

I think lots of folk misunderstand the term incarnate. They have, if they even really think about it at all, some idea of incarnate means "God in Human Form" as though it was some costume GOD put on so he could sneak around and spy on the humans.

That makes as little sense theologically IMHO as the idea that Jesus let himself be killed as some blood sacrifice.

Jesus was a teacher. The information we have all says that everything he did during his life was to teach people. If the message was as some have said, that his followers are saved and the bad guys are gonna get it, Jesus lives the wrong story. In that story when it came time to lay hands on Him He would have swung around, flapped open his oilskin slicker, drawn his trusty Ivory handled six-guns, mowed down the Clancy Brothers and rid out of town leaving behind one silver bullet and on the ears of the wind, a hearty "Hi-Ho Silver, Away".
But Jesus is not some Masked Man. The power of the Jesus saga is that He is human.
A God cannot be tempted, Jesus was. And Jesus resisted. And the message is "humans can resist evil".
A God cannot be threated, Jesus was. And Jesus did not respond with more violence. And the message is "humans can try to find ways other than violence".
A God cannot die, Jesus did. And Jesus rose from the dead. And the message is "all humans will rise from the dead".
Just as I believe that we must be honest about the great Evil that Christians have done in the past and that Christians are doing now, I believe we must also be honest about what the message was.
It is not that Christians are saved and everyone else is damned.
It is that GOD gave us in the life of Jesus a clear lesson of what a human should do, and more importantly, can do.

Note the part about all humans being saved. Jar taught that Christianity is about what we do and not primarily about what we believe. Ringo agrees, teaching that the message to go and do is a truth unto itself. jar concurred.
jar writes:

Well, even if the whole Bible is no more than tales told around the campfire the message is still of value.

No God required. You, on the other hand, revere and value the Bible as Gods message to humanity. My jury is still out. I believe that Jesus is alive and real. That He is God incarnate. But as for the Bible, I question it. I do believe Genesis 1:1 however.

Jar also mentioned a few other things that stuck in my head. To wit:

jar writes:

But that is not to say that Christianity as I see it is easy. I don't see all the copouts, benefits and "get out of hell free cards" that many Christians seem to think exist. You don't get to blame problems on some Fall, or claim the "devil made you do it" or know that you are saved just cause you "believe". You also have to try to live the life.

But GOD knows we are humans just as Jesus knew that Peter would fail, or Thomas would doubt or that folk would worry if there was enough Low Country Boil to feed all the guests. Jesus didn't punish Peter for failing to walk on water, He was probably pleased and surprised Peter got as far as he did. He held Peter up, led him back to the boat and calmed the winds.

GOD is like that. Like a parent watching a child when the training wheels first come off, GOD knows we will likely fail, and GOD will be there to help us up when we fall over, get us back on the bike and watch us try again. One day we might even get the hang of it and that taste of freedom when you take your first ride and the wind is blowing in your face and your hair is flying and you are out of sight of the house and you can go anywhere, is something you will always cherish. And whether you know it or not, a parent is watching through the curtains, maybe even a tear of joy in the old mans eye.

The otherside of Christianity as I see it is that just like learning to ride the bike, YOU have to do it. There are NO training wheels like the Fall or Satan or Knowledge that YOU are Saved to hold you up.

GOD sent us the message that we all start out saved. Atheist, Agnostic, Christian, Jew, Muslim, Taoist, Satanist, Wiccan, Buddhist, or Anamist, all start even. When you die though you will be judged. And you will be judged individually, uniquely, against yourself. Did you try to do what is right and not do what is wrong?

You won't be able to say that "The world is filled with sin" or "We are all Fallen" or "The Sins of Adam" or even "I'm a Christian". None of those will carry any weight. The judgement will be on what you did and what you might have done, and the Judge will have perfect knowledge of both.

So again, the argument is whether what we DO matters more than what we BELIEVE. Comments?

Edited by Phat, : No reason given.


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
~Stile


This message is a reply to:
 Message 27 by ICANT, posted 12-21-2018 4:32 AM ICANT has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 29 by ICANT, posted 12-21-2018 1:51 PM Phat has responded

  
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