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Author Topic:   Discussion With A Conservative Pastor: I CANT & Phat Only..for now
ICANT
Member (Idle past 59 days)
Posts: 6269
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007


Message 4 of 47 (845088)
12-12-2018 1:02 AM
Reply to: Message 3 by Phat
12-11-2018 11:23 AM


Re: An Invitation And Request For ICANT
Hi Phat

What took you so long?

I would love to have such a discussion with you. Are you going for 50 posts each or a total of 50 before opening it for comments.

Phat writes:

if I were in a Bible Study with the "flock" because I doubt many of them would ever ask such questions nor would they be edified by hearing

It would depend on the flock. My flock which is very small would not have any problem with any question asked in a service. They know how to read the Bible and understand it. I would like to share with you and everyone else here how to accomplish that. It is hard to understand the Bible without first being saved and receiving the Holy Spirit to lead mankind and guide them in all truth.

But I studied something in the 7th grade in journalism class that can help anyone to better understand what they read. We studied it so we would know how to write a story to tell what we were reporting on.

There are five things you need to know to tell a story or understand it.

1. Who is speaking/writing?
2. To whom or about whom is he speaking/writing?
3. What subject is he speaking/writing about?
4. When or about what time is he speaking/writing?
5. What is the occasion for the speaking or writing?

We need to add the proper application rule to understand the Bible.

There is the general application of a truth or deed to every person.
And
The particular application of a truth or deed to an individual or particular group.

The first thing you need to know is who is speaking or writing?
1. Sometime God is speaking.
2. Sometime angels are speaking.
3. Sometime the devil is speaking.
4. Sometime prophets are speaking.
5. Sometime wicked men are speaking.
6. Sometime apostles are speaking.

Phat read a passage of scripture you have problems with understanding and apply these rules to it and see if it is easier to understand.

God Bless,


"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 3 by Phat, posted 12-11-2018 11:23 AM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 5 by Tangle, posted 12-12-2018 3:29 AM ICANT has not yet responded
 Message 8 by Phat, posted 12-12-2018 12:29 PM ICANT has responded
 Message 40 by Phat, posted 01-21-2019 6:07 PM ICANT has responded

  
ICANT
Member (Idle past 59 days)
Posts: 6269
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007


(1)
Message 9 of 47 (845150)
12-12-2018 2:53 PM
Reply to: Message 8 by Phat
12-12-2018 12:29 PM


Re: Starting Intro
Hi Phat

Phat writes:

You may have noticed that Tangle interrupted us and added a 6th thing.

Which is covered in #5, being the occasion for the speaking/writing.

Phat writes:

I was taught the same basic principles that your church believes...including the KJV Only thing.

They used the KJV only before I came as their pastor. In fact they had a questionnaire with 19 questions I had to answer before they even let me come speak to them. No one is allowed to speak in our pulpit until they have answered the questions to the satisfaction of the Church. All our missionaries we support have to fill one out every year.

They use the KJV Bible because it is the best English translation we have. Does it have mistakes in it? Yes there are places where the translators used the wrong word to translate into English. Genesis 1:2 has the first mistake of using a conjunctive conjunction instead of a disjunctive conjunction as it should have been. The LXX uses a disjunctive as well as the Masoretic text is marked as a disjunctive with a Rebhia.

Phat writes:

I have extreme insulin resistance and Type II Diabetes.

Sounds like yours is worse than mine. I have been on meds for the last ten years (metformin). But 4 months ago I put myself on the Keto diet. I hate fasting. Since going on the diet I have lost 24 lbs, quit using metformin and my morning sugar runs between 84 and 107 depending on how much I cheat. Went to Golden Corral Monday evening ate all I wanted and even 1 piece of fudge and my sugar was only 107 Tuesday morning.

Phat writes:

What I DO question is why God would have done it that way.

Do you question why or do just not understand why God would do things the way He did?

When I look back at my life and the life of others I don't understand why God chose to make it possible for me and them to spend eternity with Him. He made it so easy no one should miss heaven. But it is His Estate and He can make any rules He desires to make. He could have made it a lot harder but He desired that everyone ever born would come to Him, trust Him and be saved.

quote:
John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

3:17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.


That tells you everything you need to know.
God loved you.
God died in your place to buy you back from bondage.
God died so all could be saved and have eternal life with Him.
Verse 18 tells us that a person is condemned already.
Since all are condemned all must accept His free full pardon to be un-condemned.

The reason mankind is condemned is because they have not trusted Him to do what He says He will do. That is give everyone eternal life if they only believe on which is trust Him.

When it comes to your salvation you know what you did when you first asked God to save you. If you were playing games He did not even hear you. If you were serious and meant business with Him, He gave you eternal life at that moment and you have that eternal life at any moment that ever comes to exist (present perfect tense in the Greek).

Examine your earlier decision and if you meant business with God you can rest assured that He honored His word and gave you eternal life and you became my brother, and we will spend eternity together with God knowing all the answers to the questions we can't find here on earth.

God Bless,


"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 8 by Phat, posted 12-12-2018 12:29 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 10 by Phat, posted 12-12-2018 5:59 PM ICANT has not yet responded
 Message 12 by Phat, posted 12-13-2018 3:23 PM ICANT has not yet responded

  
ICANT
Member (Idle past 59 days)
Posts: 6269
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007


Message 13 of 47 (845277)
12-13-2018 7:12 PM
Reply to: Message 11 by Phat
12-12-2018 6:45 PM


Re: A Rabbit Trail For A Moment
Hi Phat

Phat writes:

I enjoy putting these posts together. It is refreshing to talk with someone who trusts that I know what I'm doing if I am serious with God.

Being serious with God is the most important thing we can do in this life. As He is the one that is going to judge us in the end. He will judge the unsaved as to what they did with the opportunity to trust Him. They will be cast into the lake of fire. He will judge those who have trusted Him for salvation according to what they have done for Him after they were saved. That is where our good works come into play. Not in order to be saved but to please our Father for what He has done for us. He wants us to love Him just because He is God.

Phat writes:

Do you believe that many of the men in the Baptist Convention have similar philosophical interests related to belief yet not Bible specific?

It really depends on what group of Baptist you are talking about.

The North American Baptist Convention has their set of belief's and practice.

The Southern Baptist Convention which has four divisions in it with each having their set of belief's and practice.

Those are the major Baptist Conventions everybody else claims to be independents of some sort. Most Baptist Churches in the US are too liberal for my Church to fellowship with as they practice a lot of traditions of mankind instead of following what God has said for us to practice in His Word.

We are an independent fundamental Bible Believing Baptist Church answering to no one but God. We do corporate with several like minded Churches in doing mission work, and supporting missionaries.

Phat writes:

Basically, the question is whether a man should limit himself to the Bible only or whether you consider it appropriate to discuss spiritual matters philosophically.

When is comes to faith and practice the Bible is the final authority.

If people can not discuss things regardless of their subject how can one's knowledge be increased. No man is an island unto himself.

Phat writes:

After all, Pastor, you likely discuss many things every day with many people.

Yes I discuss many things. Some have to do with the Bible. Some have to do with worldly things and decisions people make. Some have to do with how to do things like build a cabinet, hang a door, or other chores around the house. I am expected to know everything which I don't. The pastor is supposed to have the answer for everything. So I try to learn all that I can.

Phat writes:

I am impressed that you are even here at EvC given how conservative you appear to be.

When I was in school I was not exposed to the Big Bang Theory or any other theory. I did know about the gap theory, as I had read about it. But the angels being kicked out of heaven because the devil sinned and living on the earth having children with humans did not make sense to me then and it does not now. The devil still has access to heaven today and will until the war takes place in the last days between him and his angels and Michael and his angels. Then he is chained for 1,000 years in the lake of fire. I knew this when I was 10 years old and had never heard anyone preach about it.

I was out of the US for 15 years from 1989-2003 and when I came back it was like I was in a foreign country compared to the country I had left. I had to go back overseas for another year and returned in 2006. I then ventured into EvC in 2007 to broaden my knowledge.
I am beginning to think it was a waste of time but every now and then there is a spark that spurs me on. I am in the process of writing a book titled Creation according to Gods Word. In it I will cover the gap theory, the day age theory, the big bang theory, I will even touch on string theory which is not a theory.

I will compare these to what the original Biblical Text says about creation.

If you notice I keep asking anyone that will answer my post to give me any and all evidence they have to support their beliefs. Basically I get told I don't know anything, I am not educated enough to understand what I am reading. But no one gives any evidence to support the BBT, or inflation. I do get a lot of assertions which is not evidence. When I give evidence no one refutes it they only tell me I am not qualified to talk about it.

After typing these last few paragraphs I am beginning to question myself about why I am still here posting when I am getting no evidence or debate.

God Bless,


"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 11 by Phat, posted 12-12-2018 6:45 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 14 by Phat, posted 12-14-2018 5:13 AM ICANT has responded

  
ICANT
Member (Idle past 59 days)
Posts: 6269
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007


(1)
Message 15 of 47 (845342)
12-14-2018 12:28 PM
Reply to: Message 14 by Phat
12-14-2018 5:13 AM


Re: A Rabbit Trail For A Moment
Hi Phat

Phat writes:

It's harder to develop a time of communion and prayer at home alone.

If you practice what I have for the past 70 years you will not have a problem talking with God.

Every night when I lay down to go to sleep I have a conversation with God thanking Him for helping me make it through the day. Speaking specifically about some of the days events. I then ask Him to keep me through the night.

When I wake up before I get up I have a conversation with God thanking Him for keeping me through the night and asking Him to help me make it through the day.

Then I have conversations with God all through the day. I consult God about every decision I make.

Phat writes:

intense! I read this link:
Who are the Independent Baptists, and what do they believe?

That is a pretty good article. They do mention things we don't agree with.

When is comes to dress the Bible teaches modest apparel. Ladies can wear pants and pant suits as long as they are modest. Our ladies have a ladies auxiliary which meets once per month and they have a lesson on some subject they choose. During these lessons our young ladies are taught how to act like ladies and how to keep their temple pure in God's eyes. It is not the Pastor's job to preach on those subjects. I have a wife of 62 years that is very capable of doing that as well as several other ladies.

The men have a meeting on the same night as the ladies meet and we follow the same pattern plus talk about things we need to take care of in the next business meeting. Our young men are taught to be gentlemen. All of our young people say thank you, yes ma'am/sir, no ma'am/sir and please. Our young men are taught to have proper respect for ladies, which includes a man never raises his hand against a woman, for any reason.

We accept members from any church of like faith and order as we are. All others need to be baptized as a scriptural new testament church is the only entity that has the authority to preach, teach, or baptize.

We believe that all scriptural churches will make up the Bride of Christ.

A scriptural new testament church is a group of scripturally baptized believers who are covenanted together to carry out the great commission. To be scriptural they have to be following God's Word in their teachings.

Any who teach any type of works in order to be saved are not teaching God's Word and therefore they are not a scriptural new testament church.

Phat writes:

When people try and share their questions and concerns with you, do you offer any answers to them apart from urging them to study scripture more thoroughly?

Yes I answer their questions and if I don't know the answer I search until I find the correct answer.

I allow my people to ask questions during my sermon if one pops into their mind while I am preaching. They have learned not to ask a question at 5 minutes to 12 because I will answer it before we dismiss.

But we have instituted a Bible study 1 night a month in different members homes in which everyone brings their questions, or verses they have problems with and we do a round house discussion. That has eliminated most questions during my sermons. I have taught several books that I studied in Bible College so they are getting to the point they can answer their own questions as they arise.

Phat writes:

Have you had difficult parishoners before? How did you address them? Do they still attend? Just curious, Pastor.

I have had my share of parishioners like Judas. If you or a church is doing what God wants you to do the devil will send people to try to kill your testimony for God.

We do practice discipline like the church is taught to do by God's Word.

Phat writes:

Were you on missions trips when you left the US? What were they like? Were you successful? Did you learn anything while on them?

I went to the Cayman Islands to install some cabinets in a project my boss was selling cabinets too. I worked to support my family all my ministry from 1962 until 2007 before I pastored a church that paid me a salary. But if I had not had sufficient income from outside the church I could not have lived off what they were able to give me.

In other words I have always done mission work. My first pastorate in 1968 after school was a mission in Largo, Florida. When I went there my family made the 3rd family. We grew to the point we purchased 5 acres of property that had a house on it. I removed a wall between the master bedroom and living room and we had services in the house. I had a mobile home I was living in at that time. We reached capacity for the house having a top attendance of 52 people in a service. We then constructed a sanctuary building with Sunday school rooms and kitchen area. The auditorium would seat 160 people. The church reached the point it could support a pastor and I resigned and took another church that had bad financial problems. I stayed with the church until we reached the point finances were such they could support a pastor and had over 18k in the bank. I resigned and went back to school to study the languages more. During this time we worked with an established church teaching God's Word.

In 1989 I went to the Cayman Islands to install the cabinets I mentioned above, a 4 month job. That wound up lasting 6 months. I came back to the states and 4 months later the fellow I had done the work for wanted me to come down and work for his company doing the next phase of his project.

Not long after my return to the Island one of my former Pastors from 1955 was preaching at a little church on the Island. My wife and I went to see them and found out why God had sent me to the Island. It was a small group that had a building that was half finished. Birds and all kinds of insects could fly in and out of the building where the rafters were attached to the beam and nobody knew how to fix the problem and there were many other things that needed to finish the building. We joined the church and began to fix all the problems as I was a contractor and had done all those things in the states. We finished the building and the church grew. There were members from between 14 and 20 different countries at all times. I was privileged to teach Sunday school and special classes to these many people from all these countries. I taught people who went back to their country and could not find a scriptural church so they started one themselves. During my time there we had 39 people that came from Cuba who spent 9 months with us coming to our services. I preached Sunday morning and evening in a service for them in the fellowship hall. Since I did not know Spanish I used 3 interpreter's who said they learned more during that 9 months that they had in the last 10 years. This was due to the fact they had to listen in order to interpret the message.

The church decided we needed to build a parsonage for the Pastor to live in. Interest at that time was 12.75% which we would not have been able to afford payments on a loan. We prayed and waited on the Lord to provide the funds. One Sunday morning a gentleman and his wife came to visit us. They were members of a church in California that we fellowshipped with. Before he left the Island he decided to loan us 150k to build the parsonage with. My boss had given a bid of 450k CI dollars (each equal to $1.25 US). I drew the plans for the parsonage a 3200 sq. ft. house. The government approved the plans. Since it was a church all the material that we imported was tax free reducing the cost quite a bit. We finished the building for 120K paid the 30K immediately on the principle. We paid the entire loan off in less than 5 years. When we left the Island in 2003 everything was paid for and the church had over 100k in the bank. God is good and supplied our needs as well as protect our benefactors money in the process as the bank the money was in went bankrupt 1 month after we got his money out of it. Again God is good.

Phat writes:

Your book sounds like quite a project.

The hardest problem that I am having now is filtering through all the information I have obtained over the last 10 years and trying to condense it down to a book of around 300 pages. I have over 1 Terabyte of information I am working with.

Phat writes:

Perhaps we need to fast now and then.

If you have noticed I have done a little of that over that last few months.

God Bless,


"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 14 by Phat, posted 12-14-2018 5:13 AM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 16 by Phat, posted 12-14-2018 12:48 PM ICANT has responded

  
ICANT
Member (Idle past 59 days)
Posts: 6269
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007


Message 17 of 47 (845369)
12-15-2018 12:39 AM
Reply to: Message 16 by Phat
12-14-2018 12:48 PM


Re: A Rabbit Trail For A Moment
Hi Phat

Phat writes:

Do you ever read any of the ongoing arguments that members here engage in or do you ignore them? Just curious...I wouldn't blame you if you did ignore them.

When I have time I read. You can't learn without reading. Neither can you learn if you have a closed mind. There are too many people who know what they believe and they don't want any body to bother them with the facts.
I see a lot of those in the church and I see some here those are a hopeless cause.

God Bless,


"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 16 by Phat, posted 12-14-2018 12:48 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 18 by Phat, posted 12-15-2018 11:11 AM ICANT has responded

  
ICANT
Member (Idle past 59 days)
Posts: 6269
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007


(1)
Message 19 of 47 (845627)
12-18-2018 3:46 AM
Reply to: Message 18 by Phat
12-15-2018 11:11 AM


Re: EvC Critics Challenge Orthodox Beliefs
Hi Phat

Phat writes:

Your own critics claim that you don't know science

Actually they claim I don't know what they believe about what science says.

They are correct as they don't have websites and published papers I can read and learn what their version of science is. They sure don't present any objective, verifiable, evidence for anything just bluster and assertions.

Something is scientifically verifiable if it can be tested and proven to be true.

How do you test anything that took place 13.7 billion years in the past?

But according to these guys nothing can be proven true.

Phat writes:

and what you see as wisdom based on scriptural interpretations.

quote:
Proverbs 1:7 The fear of the LORD is the beginning of knowledge: but fools despise wisdom and instruction.

Faith writes:

Faith does the same thing, which is why she is a YEC.

Faith is a YEC because she has believed the devils lie like Eve did in the garden. Faith is too blind to understand what the Bible says and she believes the teaching of a bunch of wolves in sheep's clothing.

Phat writes:

Do you respect the scientific method? Do you understand it?

Phat it it wasn't for science we would still be riding in wagons pulled by mules or horses. There would be no automobiles, airplanes, trains, buses, telephones, computers, TV's, glasses I wear, teeth I eat with, artificial joints I have in my legs, and all the other convenience's we have. So yes I respect science.

Sir Roger Penrose don't understand what we been talking about the last few days. He is one of the most prominent physics there is, so why should I understand it.

I understand the universe exists.
I understand that according to scientific laws (entropy) the universe can't be eternal.
I understand because of that the universe had to have a beginning to exist.
I understand the universe can not begin to exist from non existence.

Yet so called scientist and wannabe's want me to believe it did. They have contrived all kinds of ways that the universe could begin to exist. Hartley/Hawking devised the instanton, that they said if it appeared it would create just such a universe as ours. But for particles to appear seemingly out of nowhere requires a vacuum to exist in. There was no existence so where would the vacuum exist?

Two branes crashing together has been proposed but no place for them to exist in has been proposed. Penrose says string theory is a Fashion

I understand the standard theory requires inflation which Penrose says is a fantasy.

I understand the standard theory requires dark matter and dark energy in order to exist. Yet none has ever been found. But without it the universe would fly apart, therefore it must exist.

I understand the standard theory has many problems listed below.
"The flatness problem."
"The horizon problem"
"The density fluctuation problem"
"The exotic relics problem"
"The thermal state problem"
"The cosmological constant problem"
"The singularity problem"
"The timescale problem"
You can find all those listed here

Inflation was invented to solve most of these problems.

Phat writes:

Do you see limits on what the Bible can teach about science or do you believe that science itself errors by limiting the Bible?

Mans interpretation is the problem.

The Original manuscripts of the Bible makes no mistake and is perfect but we only have copies, of copies, of copies, of copies, of copies etc. Mankind made all those copies. But where it speaks of scientific things it makes no mistakes but it is not a science book.

To me science is trying to figure out how God did it.

As I have said before:

The standard theory says the universe had a beginning. It does not tell us anything about how the universe began to exist. It only tries to explain what man think's happened from T=0 -43 until now. Man has changed his mind several times over the years.

The Bible tells us God created the heavens and the earth in one light period. Genesis 2:4 The Bible gives us the history of that light period in genesis 2:5-4:24.

Hubble told us the universe was expanding.
The Bible tells us God stretched out the heavens.

Science discovered the earth was circular after they thought it was flat.
The Bible tells us God sits on the circle of the earth.

Science tells us gravity keeps the parts of the universe where they are.
The Bible tells us God placed them where they are and even named the stars. Job 26:7, 9:9 Psalm 147:4, 8:3.

So as you see I believe science and the Bible agree.

Phat writes:

Do you believe that a sincere man who is open to the possibility that God exists and who is open to the possibility that Jesus is/was more than just human will be accepted by God

Short answer No.
Long answer: changing your wording.

A man must believe that God is and the He is a rewarder of them that diligently seek Him. Not my rules but His.

quote:
Hebrews 11:6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

You can not question His existence. You must by faith believe that He does exist. You must believe by faith that He will give you eternal life when you trust Him to do so. Then all you do is receive His free full pardon.

Phat writes:

without having to formally go get baptized by a church?

Baptism and church membership are not required to go to heaven.

The thief on the cross never went to church and was not baptized and Jesus told him "today shalt thou be with me in Paradise". I can not disagree with Jesus.

But I believe to be in the Bride of Christ, you have to be born again, baptized and a faithful member of a scriptural new testament church, looking and longing for His return, but until then busy about His business.

Phat writes:

Can you see why the other side argues the way that they do?

Sure I can. If I didn't I wouldn't be preaching. When I preach I try to introduce my audience to my friend.

People who have never met my friend in person can not understand why I do what I do. I have met Him, I have talked with Him, I have touched Him, and He had touched me and made something out of my life. Had it not been for Him I would probably be dead from drinking as I am an acholic from birth. But God changed my lifestyle. He gave me something to live for.

Phat writes:

I believe in spiritual warfare, as loony as it may sound to some.

I have a constant fight with my old worldly body it wants to do things that are not pleasing to God. So I like Paul have to keep my body under subjection.

Phat writes:

Have you ever seen an actual manifestation of demonic activity?


In my lifetime I have had encounters with 2 demons. In the name of Jesus they departed from their host.

Phat writes:

What confirmed it for you?

Raving manic became calm and in their right mind.

God Bless,


"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 18 by Phat, posted 12-15-2018 11:11 AM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 20 by Phat, posted 12-18-2018 9:58 AM ICANT has responded
 Message 24 by Phat, posted 12-19-2018 8:55 AM ICANT has responded

  
ICANT
Member (Idle past 59 days)
Posts: 6269
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007


Message 25 of 47 (845726)
12-19-2018 12:45 PM
Reply to: Message 24 by Phat
12-19-2018 8:55 AM


Re: EvC Critics Challenge Orthodox Beliefs
Hi Phat

Phat writes:

They would argue why such a Deity would need to condemn people simply for not believing in Him.

You apparently did not understand the quote this statement follows.

A person is condemned because the man formed from the dust of the ground disobeyed God and ate the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. That disobedience separated God and mankind and also brought with it physical death.

At that point the universe and everything in it or would ever be in it was condemned (separated from God).

A way had to be made to bridge that gap or all would remain condemned.

God took on the form of man and came down to earth in the form of a man we call Jesus and died on the cross to make a way mankind could be reunited with God, as the first man was before he ate the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. He should have been call Emmanuel (Mat 1:23) which means God with us but men just refuse to obey God.

So all mankind is condemned.
Mankind continues to be condemned because he has not trusted God to give him eternal life receiving a full pardon for that condemnation.

So when a man/woman accepts God's offer of the free full pardon he/she is no longer condemned.

If they do not receive that free full pardon they remain condemned for eternity.

Phat writes:

If he does not receive the message, it is likely because he does not trust the messenger.

A person, Tangle does not receive the message because they do not hear the message. The messenger does not matter. They can pick up a Bible and read the gospel and get saved without anyone talking too them. If a person wants to find the answer, will read the book of John KJV Bible the Holy Spirit will speak to them and draw them to a conclusion. If He does not draw them they will not receive the message no matter how many time they read it or listen too it.

Phat writes:

We all do, Pastor.

I know a lot of so called Christians who disagree that they are just a sinner saved by grace. They don't believe they are a sinner.

God Bless,


"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 24 by Phat, posted 12-19-2018 8:55 AM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 26 by Phat, posted 12-20-2018 1:42 PM ICANT has responded

  
ICANT
Member (Idle past 59 days)
Posts: 6269
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007


Message 27 of 47 (845791)
12-21-2018 4:32 AM
Reply to: Message 26 by Phat
12-20-2018 1:42 PM


Re: EvC Critics Challenge Orthodox Beliefs
Hi Phat

Phat writes:

What do you think of Calvinism? How about Mid Acts Dispensationalism?

I don't think much of Calvinism. John Calvin had some beliefs that others did not go along with so he started his own church and taught some things there were not in the Bible.

My aunt was a pastor of a Calvinist belief church. I will always remember her telling me that whatever is to be will be even if it don't ever happen. I couldn't figure that one out.

I had heard of dispensationalism but never Mid Acts dispensationalism.

It seems like they want to do the right thing but when studying the Bible and rightly dividing it. They believe you should not eliminate one word, syllable or punctuation from the complete sacred text.

I don't know how you can really understand the Bible much less rightly divide it, if you don't know it did not have punctuation marks in the original. It did not have sentences, paragraphs or chapters. Those came along around 1100 AD.

Phat writes:

Critics would point out that the first man and woman wouldn't have known any better. After all, did they initially know God? Were they given an understanding of who He was and what they were expected to do in life or did they just disobey out of curiosity?

The woman did not have to know anything. The man was the one who was ordered not to eat the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.

The man formed from the dust of the ground was smart enough to know if you are told not to do something you better not do it. That man was not a modern man as we are he was created formed and made and was perfect in every way. He was smart enough to be able to name all the animals.

That man was there when God planted the garden in Eden.

He was there when God formed the animals, fowl, and every beast of the field.

He knew God took a part out of him and made a woman.

When he had witnessed all those things I think he would know he should do what God said.

Phat writes:

What happens if we received the free full pardon and asked God into our hearts but later on again disobeyed God? I would think that all Christians have disobeyed Him at least once.

If only once God would be well pleased. But we disobey Him every day many times.

If a person had to earn their free full pardon it would not be a free full pardon. But if you had to earn it and you sinned you would lose it because you was not earning your eternal life.

But when a person is born again they receive eternal life. Now you tell me what you would have to do for that life to cease to be?

Eternal if from now on and anytime that becomes now.

Phat writes:

Critics argue that since Christians believe they are forgiven they are not as worried about sinning or disobedience.

The people trying to live a life like Christ that I know worry about disobeying God a lot more than they did when they were lost.

Phat writes:

Finally...lets take Stile as an example. He chooses to not believe, but is a good person.

But being a good person is not being born again. And as long as he does not believe God is, and will do what He says He will do and accepts His offer of a free full pardon he will be lost and spend eternity in the lake of fire with the devil.

To receive salvation and be born again does not require any works at all.

But Paul said it best.

quote:
2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.


Saved by grace through faith.
NOT OF WORKS
But saved people who are born again will work.

quote:
10:27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:

10:28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.


There is no wiggle room in verse 27. It says we will follow him if we are His sheep. If we don't follow Him we are probably goats.

Notice Jesus says in verse 28 He gives them (His sheep) eternal life. You can't earn a gift. He also says they will never perish.

Phat writes:

Lucifer who chose to rebel and become satan, isnt evil indirectly Gods fault?

Lucifer the word does not come from a Hebrew word it comes from a Latin word. (Product of the Catholic Church). Lucifer is used in the Bible 1 time and is talking about a man who happens to be a king. Read the text in Isaiah Isa 14:12 and apply rules I gave for understanding the Bible.

Isaiah records in verse 16 " Is this the man that made the earth to tremble,"

Satan was never under grace and so he has never fallen. He still roams the halls of heaven, and will until the end time.

God Bless,


"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 26 by Phat, posted 12-20-2018 1:42 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 28 by Phat, posted 12-21-2018 9:47 AM ICANT has responded

  
ICANT
Member (Idle past 59 days)
Posts: 6269
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007


(1)
Message 29 of 47 (845871)
12-21-2018 1:51 PM
Reply to: Message 28 by Phat
12-21-2018 9:47 AM


Re: Jesus: Plan A or Plan B?
Hi Phat

Phat writes:

Interesting. Let me pin this belief down a little more. First, our critics will argue that not all of these beliefs are firmly rooted in the Bible.

Over the last 70 years I have had many people make the statement the Bible says...….etc. When in fact the Bible says no such thing they are repeating something that they have heard and accepted as truth.

This is not just limited to the religious bunch. The scientific people have been taught things that they believe is the truth. Although I have been told recently that there is no absolute truth in science. Even the universe may not exist as I might be hallucinating. I would probably be told that I may or may not exist as I could be hallucinating. But something would be existing to do the hallucinating.

Back to what people believe about the devil.
Many believe he was the choir director in heaven.
Many believe he is a fallen arch angel.
Many believe he has been cast out of heaven.
Many believe 1/3 of the angels followed him.

Lets examine those claims and why we have them.

There is zero evidence for the devil being the choir director.

Jude 1:9 talks about Michael being an arch angel. No other is mentioned anywhere in the Bible. The word archangel is used only two times in the Bible. The other time is 1 Thessalonians 4:16 and is talking about Jesus coming with shout of the voice of an archangel. So we can rule out the devil being a fallen archangel.

The fall of the devil was a part of the gap theory which has been around since the first century AD. The belief was that the devil sinned and was cast out of heaven to the earth and 1/3 of the angels followed him. This will happen in the future but has not taken place yet.

quote:
Revelation 12:7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,

12:8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.

12:9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

12:10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.

12:11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.


This is still a future event. The devil was still in heaven during the lifetime of Job. Job 1:7, 2:2.
He was still there when the brethren were killed during the tribulation period.

So the devil is yet to be cast out of heaven in the end of the Great tribulation period. 1/3 of the angels will follow him and they will have a war with Michael and his angels with Michael winning. Michael is the most powerful angel and deserved the title archangel. All others are subservient to him.

The mistaken idea that Lucifer is the devil comes from Isaiah 14:3 where Isaiah was to take up a proverb against the king of Babylon.
This king was ruthless and had got too big for his britches thinking he was equal to God. I have met a few of those in my lifetime. Read the text and you will find out that the text is talking about a man not an angel.

Ezekiel 28:1-19 Ezekiel was to deliver a message to the prince of Tyrus which died is used to support the devil being cast down. The narrative is about a man not the devil.

So where did the devil come from and how did he become evil.
Isaiah 45:7 tells us that God created evil. The devil is the father of all evil therefore he was created evil. He has never fallen from anything as he is doing exactly what he was created to do. He was created to give mankind a choice. Without the devil being evil there would only be good and mankind would never have known good and evil.

I have been asked how could the devil be in the presence of God when accusing Job and the other brethren with sin in his life. Well he has not sinned as he has done exactly what he was created to do. And he is doing it very well. 1/3 of the angels are his helpers who are usually referred to as demon spirits.

I hope that clears up the devil situation for you.

Phat writes:

So were 1/3 not under Grace? Implying that God kept the 2/3 by His Grace? Or did all of the angels have free will and, if so, was it just destiny that 1/3 fell and 2/3 stayed loyal?

Angels have never had a choice and have never been under grace. They have always done exactly what they were created for.

Had they had the choice of obey or not to obey (freewill) there would have been no reason for mankind. Everything created has done exactly what they were created for except mankind and they are the only entity created with the ability to make a choice as to whether they will obey God or not obey God.

Phat writes:

So along comes humans. You claim that Adam had essentially the same choice as the angels.

First thing ADAM is not the name of a man. It is the transliteration of the Hebrew word אדם with two added vowels of the Masoretes. The word means man, mankind.

The man formed from the dust of the ground in Genesis 2:7 is the only creature of any kind that has ever had the ability to exercise his freewill concerning good and evil. He caused all mankind to be under the penalty of sin, which is separation from God and physical death.

The only choice you have is to accept what God has offered through the death on the cross to reunite mankind to fellowship with God. Restoring mankind to the position the man formed from the dust of the ground had when placed in the garden. The man heard God's voice in the garden after he had eaten the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. He knew who was speaking to him so they had apparently talked before this occasion.

So no the man had choices the angels never had.

Phat writes:

In other words, was Jesus plan A from the beginning or was Jesus a necessary plan B after the Fall?

There was never a plan B.

Before the universe existed it was determined that the sacrifice on the cross would take place.

If the man in the garden had never eaten of the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil he would still be in the garden walking and talking with God and you and I would not be having this conversation as we would not exist.

Now why did the man eat the fruit? It seems he believed God that the day he ate the fruit he would die. He also though that extended to his wife who was never commanded not to eat the fruit from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.

When she came to him and told him she had eaten the fruit he thought he had to make a decision. She had eaten the fruit and was going to die. Leaving him alone with nothing but the animals and God. He made the choice concerning what he said a man would do for his wife in Genesis 2:24 where he said: "Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh".

In other words a man would give up everything for his wife. She was going to die and leave him alone so he willfully chose to eat the fruit and die with her rather than live in the garden with just the animals and God to talk to.

Phat writes:

I don't fully understand. And to be honest, I firmly believe that it is OK to not understand.

Isaiah quotes God as saying in Isa. 55:8

quote:
For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD.

God will give us what we can handle at the moment. When we grow He will add more understand to our knowledge.

Phat writes:

And one particular behavior that jar did which causes me to question his spirit is the fact that he violently opposed you. Insulted you. Denigrated you. Many of your opponents do likewise.

I am going to let John expound on that point.

quote:
John
15:18 If the world hate you, ye know that it hated me before it hated you.

15:19 If ye were of the world, the world would love his own: but because ye are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you.

15:20 Remember the word that I said unto you, The servant is not greater than his lord. If they have persecuted me, they will also persecute you; if they have kept my saying, they will keep yours also.

15:21 But all these things will they do unto you for my name's sake, because they know not him that sent me.

15:22 If I had not come and spoken unto them, they had not had sin: but now they have no cloak for their sin.

15:23 He that hateth me hateth my Father also.


As you can see it comes with the territory. You said you could not understand why I was still here. Well they need to hear it whether it affects their lives or not.

Phat writes:

Now...I can understand why you frustrate the science minded ones when you dialogue with them.

I frustrate them because they do not have answers to the questions I ask. Look at AZPaul's posts recently to me and point out any real evidence he has presented to support his view. He has made a lot of assertions but presented no physical evidence or supporting evidence.
They have even come to the conclusion there can be no truth.

Phat writes:

No God required. You, on the other hand, revere and value the Bible as Gods message to humanity. My jury is still out. I believe that Jesus is alive and real. That He is God incarnate. But as for the Bible, I question it. I do believe Genesis 1:1 however.

The KJV Bible I use is not perfect. Mankind has been copying copy's of it for years. All you have to do is look at the new translation and see that man has tried to change the text to suit their particular belief's throughout the years.

That is why I studied the original languages of the Bible and have continued to study them for the past 50+ years. I can read the dead sea scrolls which I have copies of and compare to the other texts I have available to me. I have a scholars edition of Logos Bible software where I have access to millions of books to study. And thousands of scholars to study behind.

But the most important tool I have is the Holy Spirit as I depend on Him to lead me in all truth. So much study and prayer are involved in a study of God's Word.

Phat writes:

Note the part about all humans being saved. Jar taught that Christianity is about what we do and not primarily about what we believe.

Christianity and being born again are two different things.
A person has to be born again before they can be a Christian.
But jar is trying to be a Christian without being born again as he believe all are saved and have to get lost by doing bad deeds.

The word Christian is in the Bible 2 times and Christians 1 time.

quote:
Acts 26:28 Then Agrippa said unto Paul, Almost thou persuadest me to be a Christian.

quote:
1 Peter 4:16 Yet if any man suffer as a Christian, let him not be ashamed; but let him glorify God on this behalf.

quote:
Acts 11:26 And when he had found him, he brought him unto Antioch. And it came to pass, that a whole year they assembled themselves with the church, and taught much people. And the disciples were called Christians first in Antioch.

These people were called little cristos because they were living a life like Christ and it was meant to be a derogatory term.

Phat writes:

So again, the argument is whether what we DO matters more than what we BELIEVE. Comments?

First you must be born again and receive the Holy Spirit to lead you in all truth. Without having the Spirit there is no way to receive or understand the Word of God.

But when you are born again you are literally bought and paid for by the debt paid for you on the cross of Calvary.

Since you are bought and paid for you should do what you are told to do. Not in order to be born again but because you are a born again bought and paid for child of the King.

jar and many other want to feel important in the decision and thus try to place the works of mankind above the sacrifice God made for them making His sacrifice of non effect.

If we could have pleased God by our works He would not have had to come down here and die on the cross. So their works and belief in them make fun of God's sacrifice.

God Bless,


"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 28 by Phat, posted 12-21-2018 9:47 AM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 30 by Phat, posted 12-21-2018 2:31 PM ICANT has responded

  
ICANT
Member (Idle past 59 days)
Posts: 6269
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007


Message 31 of 47 (845906)
12-22-2018 2:31 AM
Reply to: Message 20 by Phat
12-18-2018 9:58 AM


Re: EvC Critics Challenge Orthodox Beliefs
Hi Phat

Thought I would come back and get this one.

Phat writes:

How do you interpret the following scripture?

James 2:14-17 writes:


14 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?
15 If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,
16 And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?
17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
KJV

James was the pastor of the church at Jerusalem. So He had his biological Jewish brethren and his Gentile born again brethren and he is addressing them. They are all saved and born again so they have eternal life. But they are admonished to work not for salvation but because of salvation.

Why didn't you put the next verse in there?

quote:
2:18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.

It is impossible to show your faith without works.
But I can show you my faith by my works.

But salvation does not come by works faith produces works. If a person tells you they have faith in God and you do not see any fruit of that faith it is a dead faith.

quote:
Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.


We are saved by faith but we are saved to walk in good works.

quote:
John 10:27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:

10:28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

10:29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.

10:30 I and my Father are one.


We are saved by faith. This makes us Jesus sheep.
Jesus says His sheep hear Him and follows Him.
Those who do not follow Jesus is not His sheep.
Makes no difference how many time one has been baptized.
And joined a church. They have believed in vain.
Not truly hearing and obeying the word.

Phat writes:

In addition, it has recently been brought up that in the parable of the Good Samaritan, help was extended beyond the immediate group. Some believers maintain that the church need only take care of its own. Comments?

A parable is a simple story used to illustrate a moral or spiritrual lesson.

quote:
Luke
10:31 And by chance there came down a certain priest that way: and when he saw him, he passed by on the other side.

10:32 And likewise a Levite, when he was at the place, came and looked on him, and passed by on the other side.

10:33 But a certain Samaritan, as he journeyed, came where he was: and when he saw him, he had compassion on him,

10:34 And went to him, and bound up his wounds, pouring in oil and wine, and set him on his own beast, and brought him to an inn, and took care of him.

10:35 And on the morrow when he departed, he took out two pence, and gave them to the host, and said unto him, Take care of him; and whatsoever thou spendest more, when I come again, I will repay thee.

10:36 Which now of these three, thinkest thou, was neighbour unto him that fell among the thieves?

10:37 And he said, He that shewed mercy on him. Then said Jesus unto him, Go, and do thou likewise.


The lesson of this parable is found in verse 36 when Jesus asked who was neighbour to the man that fell among the thieves.

Now if you want to find out who Jesus was talking too you have to go back to verse 25and you find a young lawyer who is tempting Jesus. This lawyer wanted to know what he had to do to inherit eternal life.

This young lawyer was not a saved person just a self righteous religionist. Wanting to obtain eternal life his way.

God Bless,


"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 20 by Phat, posted 12-18-2018 9:58 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
ICANT
Member (Idle past 59 days)
Posts: 6269
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007


(1)
Message 32 of 47 (845907)
12-22-2018 2:51 AM
Reply to: Message 30 by Phat
12-21-2018 2:31 PM


Re: Jesus: Plan A or Plan B?
Hi Phat

Phat writes:

I'm just not sure what road of suffering He wants me to travel. Nor do I trust many of the religious in this world.

What makes you think you must suffer?

God does have a job for you to do. You just need to find that job and get busy.

I don't trust religion or the religious. Most of them belong to the devil.

PhatThe critics would agree, and say that organized religion is brainwashing people.

I say the critics are the ones that have been brainwashed.

Phat writes:

But tell me...can we ever have both, or is accepting God making a definite choice?

It is a definite choice to receive His offer of a free full pardon and then dedicating one's life to serving God. If you want to have a full peaceful life. Phat I don't have a worry in the world. God has always supplied what I needed never failing me once in my 79 years. As I look back I did not agree with Him on many occasions but He was right.

Phat writes:

Right any better than the Left or is everybody simply human and fallen...in need of a savior?

We are all sinners in need of a savior.
When we accept that savior we are still sinners
But we are not under the penalty of sin.

God Bless,


"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 30 by Phat, posted 12-21-2018 2:31 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 33 by Phat, posted 12-22-2018 4:29 PM ICANT has responded

  
ICANT
Member (Idle past 59 days)
Posts: 6269
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007


Message 34 of 47 (845929)
12-22-2018 11:00 PM
Reply to: Message 33 by Phat
12-22-2018 4:29 PM


Re: Jesus: Plan A or Plan B?
Hi Phat,

Phat writes:

ringo and I argue all the time about this stuff.

Those three thing are facts.

Phat writes:

To his credit, he at least knows the value of the message

Not the message in this:

quote:
We are all sinners in need of a savior.
When we accept that savior we are still sinners
But we are not under the penalty of sin.

If he did he would change his argument.

Phat writes:

but he argues even on behalf of satan...arguing that a loving God would never allow hell to exist.


But a just God would require a hell. Which He is.

Phat writes:

One characteristic of my critics Tangle and ringo is that they limit God to a character in a book.

Actually they limit Him to the abilities of mankind.

Phat writes:

They simply won't believe that God existed before the authors even wrote about Him.

This is the reason I say they limit Him to the abilities of mankind. They believe He is not God as He is a product of the thoughts of mankind, therefore He does not exist other than in the minds of some deluded people like Phat and ICANT.

Phat writes:

They have bought into the argument that the book (Bible) is a product of humans.

27% of the old testament was predictions about coming events.

Over 1,000 of those predictions have come true. Many are yet to come true. But so far they are coming true at a 100% accuracy rate.

Show me any other predictors that have that rate of fulfilled predictions.

Phat writes:

Additionally, they honestly see no evidence that God exists.

Even a blind person sitting in a forest can see evidence that God exists.

I don't think that is the problem. I think he can't dare face the reality that he is not the captain of his own destiny.

Phat writes:

ringo simply sees logic as his guiding light. Logic and evidence. Comments?

ringo would not recognize evidence if he stumbled over it.

You have to be looking for evidence before you can find it.

God Bless,


"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 33 by Phat, posted 12-22-2018 4:29 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 35 by Phat, posted 12-23-2018 8:16 AM ICANT has responded

  
ICANT
Member (Idle past 59 days)
Posts: 6269
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007


Message 36 of 47 (845961)
12-23-2018 11:05 PM
Reply to: Message 35 by Phat
12-23-2018 8:16 AM


Re: The Vast Universe
Hi Phat

Phat writes:

I always respected our members Cavediver and Son Goku.

I learned a lot from them even though cavediver got exasperated at the way I asked him questions.

Phat writes:

Do you believe or have any evidence in regards to the idea that the earth is Gods focus or do you believe He may have many forms of life throughout the universe (and maybe, hypothetically, multiverses) whom He is involved with?

There is no mention of such in the Bible of any such events. But since God is eternal and all powerful why would He be restricted to one experiment with creatures who He gives free will. There could be thousands of universes. Maybe He will let me have my own universe one day to be responsible for.

quote:
Isaiah 55:8 For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD.

55:9 For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.


Phat writes:

Keep in mind that we humans tend to think we are the center of things.

Yes we seem to think a lot more about our importance than we really are.

Especially when we get to the point we are telling the creator of the universe how He should rule and run His estate.

Our thoughts are no where near to God's thought.
Our ways are no where near to God's ways.

Yet puny little man shakes his fist in the face of God like we can change what He is doing. Or the way He is doing it.

God Bless,


"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 35 by Phat, posted 12-23-2018 8:16 AM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 38 by Phat, posted 12-26-2018 2:14 PM ICANT has responded
 Message 39 by Phat, posted 01-02-2019 11:19 PM ICANT has responded

  
ICANT
Member (Idle past 59 days)
Posts: 6269
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007


(1)
Message 41 of 47 (847691)
01-25-2019 12:43 PM
Reply to: Message 38 by Phat
12-26-2018 2:14 PM


Re: Merry Christmas Pastor ICANT
Hi Phat,

We had a wonderful holiday period with too much good food. And a lot of good fellowship. Hope yours was the same. We been real busy with the holiday's and getting ready for the second semester of college classes we have at our church. I have also been having a lot of problems with my artificial knee implant.

Phat writes:

I would have enough of a challenge simply being responsible for a family or a small flock. Perhaps I could learn to be responsible for a country at best...but a planet..or a universe would require supernatural wisdom and impartation.

Well Paul said we don't know what we will be like when we meet Jesus but that we would be like Him. I think that would qualify either of us to oversee a universe.

Phat writes:

It is a choice and a decision. I feel as if I will never be able to convince anyone nor will I ever convince them.

Back in the early sixties when I first started preaching I thought it was my job to convince people they needed to be saved. Later I discovered I was trying to do the work of the Holy Spirit. It is His job to convict people and my job to present the word to them. I have had a few converts in my lifetime that I convinced but they were unconvinced still.

So you are right it is a decision that people have to make on their own. That is why we call it free will. They are free to believe in God and trust Him if they so desire too. They can also choose to not believe in God as many here have done. So I don't try to convert people today I only try to present the Word of God where it can be understood.

Phat writes:

but my question is why people put so much energy into trying to challenge the resurrection rather than simply accepting it as a belief.

They refuse to believe because they do not want to have a higher authority than themselves to be responsible too.

And no we will never be able to present a logical argument that will convince them, of anything. I simply want to present the alternative so when they stand before God at their judgment they will be without excuse.

quote:
Antiquities 18:63
The standard text of Josephus reads as follows:

About this time lived Jesus, a wise man, if indeed one ought to call him a man. For he was the achiever of extraordinary deeds and was a teacher of those who accept the truth gladly. He won over many Jews and many of the Greeks. He was the Messiah. When he was indicted by the principal men among us and Pilate condemned him to be crucified, those who had come to love him originally did not cease to do so; for he appeared to them on the third day restored to life, as the prophets of the Deity had foretold these and countless other marvelous things about him, and the tribe of the Christians, so named after him, has not disappeared to this day. (All Josephus citations, except the next, are from P. L. Maier, ed./trans., Josephus –The Essential Works (Grand Rapids: Kregel Publications, 1994).



Josephus.
This statement of a Jewish historian was written not long after the death and resurrection of Christ. Much more evidence of Christ than the scientific story of creation.

Phat writes:

Seems the critics earn a living being critical and skeptical.

I am critical and skeptical, that is the reason I have spent 50 years studying Greek and Hebrew so I can understand what God said and not have to take what someone else says it means.

Phat writes:

Critics say that religion won't help the world.

I agree that religion won't help the world, not will it help anyone.

To fix our problems people need to be born again. That is born of God. When a person is born again of the Holy Spirit they become a new creature with a new outlook on life and a different lifestyle.

Most people who claim to be Christians have not been born again so they are the same old person pretending to be a child of God.

Phat writes:

I feel that simply sharing the Gospel no longer works for a skeptical and educated world.

But that is all you can do. You can't change anybody only they can accept a change of themselves they can't even produce the change, only God can do that.

God Bless,


"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 38 by Phat, posted 12-26-2018 2:14 PM Phat has not yet responded

  
ICANT
Member (Idle past 59 days)
Posts: 6269
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007


Message 42 of 47 (847694)
01-25-2019 1:08 PM
Reply to: Message 39 by Phat
01-02-2019 11:19 PM


Re: 2019 and beyond
Hi Phat,

Phat writes:

How were your holidays? Did you ever get a chance to watch the videos that I sent you?

I watched the first one and thought it was pretty good. I will get around to the others later.

Phat writes:

I wanted to ask you also about your opinion of the TV Evangelists.

99.9 % are in it for fame and fortune with the latter being the most important.

Phat writes:

Finally, what do you think of this question?

That question being: Why is Christianity right?

Let me define what I believe to be Christian or Christianity.
It is a lifestyle of living a life like Christ did during His 33.5 years here on earth in a human body. He lived a sinless life. I can't and therefore do not claim to be a Christian. I just claim to be a born again child of God.

The thing that separates Christ from all the other religious founders is that He is alive after being crucified and they are all dead.

God Bless,


"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 39 by Phat, posted 01-02-2019 11:19 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
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