Discussion With A Conservative Pastor: I CANT & Phat Only..for now

That was a great explanation of a lot of things! The only thing that the critics have left is that the Bible was written, edited,and redacted by humans and is thus not the living word. The way that you explain it, however, makes it believable.

I never understood why God created evil but now it appears to make sense. We really do have a decision to make. We have several who claim to be Christians here at EvC and we have a Deist(Ringo) who claims to follow the message while being unconvinced of the need to be a Christian. He has challenged me in many of my comfort zones, however. I am scared to lose my material comforts in life. I am scared to have to suffer. I DO love Jesus, however, and am unafraid to follow Him. I'm just not sure what road of suffering He wants me to travel. Nor do I trust many of the religious in this world.

Plus, I feel now more than ever for my EvC online friends such as Stile. He seems like such a nice person. Why on earth would God burn him up simply for not believing? The critics would agree, and say that organized religion is brainwashing people. You must admit that in many cases it does...all for lining the pockets of some televangelist or 501C3 organization. And I think that many conservative American Christians equate rightwing political ideology with Gods plan. And that the Left are tools of Satan. Faith seems to believe this.
I confess that I get mad at her, Pastor. She is such a bad advertisement for Christianity!

And unbelievers such as Stile seem like such good advertisements for God and free will also. But tell me...can we ever have both, or is accepting God making a definite choice? And politically speaking, in your opinion is the Right any better than the Left or is everybody simply human and fallen...in need of a savior?

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We are all sinners in need of a savior. When we accept that savior we are still sinners But we are not under the penalty of sin.

ringo and I argue all the time about this stuff. To his credit, he at least knows the value of the message (to help others and not judge them) but he argues even on behalf of satan...arguing that a loving God would never allow hell to exist. One characteristic of my critics Tangle and ringo is that they limit God to a character in a book. They simply won't believe that God existed before the authors even wrote about Him. \

At best, they argue about what the God of the book did. Some of them are honest in their denial of belief, however. They have bought into the argument that the book (Bible) is a product of humans. Additionally, they honestly see no evidence that God exists. Tangle has a vendetta against our "foolish" beliefs. ringo simply sees logic as his guiding light. Logic and evidence. Comments?

I always respected our members Cavediver and Son Goku. They knew their field of study consensus and tentative evidence quite well. I too have always had an interest in Cosmology to a layman's curiosity. In light of our discussion, I have some questions.

Do you believe or have any evidence in regards to the idea that the earth is Gods focus or do you believe He may have many forms of life throughout the universe (and maybe, hypothetically, multiverses) whom He is involved with?

Keep in mind that we humans tend to think we are the center of things.

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Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.~Stile

Fixed. Post had a wrong address.

Merry Christmas EvC.

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Merry Christmas to you and your family. May you both have a blessed Christmas and a healthy New Year and may your flock grow in wisdom and be blessed in 2019.
Thanks for answering my questions. I hope to learn more this coming year and strengthen my faith while maintaining my balance with the secular wisdom learned here at EvC. I hope that we all grow in the knowledge that is truly important for our lives.

ICANT writes: But since God is eternal and all powerful why would He be restricted to one experiment with creatures who He gives free will. There could be thousands of universes. Maybe He will let me have my own universe one day to be responsible for.

I would have enough of a challenge simply being responsible for a family or a small flock. Perhaps I could learn to be responsible for a country at best...but a planet..or a universe would require supernatural wisdom and impartation.

Also I responded over in the Creation thread. I am convinced that belief in God is basic and unconnected to strict logic, reason, or reality. It is a choice and a decision. I feel as if I will never be able to convince anyone nor will I ever convince them. The reason is not that I have weak arguments, though to be honest, some of my opponents here have very good arguments. I have gotten to know some interesting online personalities here. And in fact, I feel as if everyone was meant to believe in the resurrection, they would. Ironically, ringo gives one of the strongest arguments for believers...even though he claims not to be one. Perhaps we waste too much time trying to convince them, Pastor.

One Bible Study that I would enjoy, however, concerns challenging Percys idea that once Jesus died, the Apostles made up the story in order to keep their livelihood going. Granted human nature is sinful to the core, but my question is why people put so much energy into trying to challenge the resurrection rather than simply accepting it as a belief. I conclude that many folks just don't want to believe. Either that or they await you or I somehow coming up with a logical argument that will convince them. What do you think?

Finally...I shared a link to videos by an apologist whom I respect: Craig Parson.
Bible On Trial I
Bible On Trial 2
Bible On Trial 3
Bible On Trial 4
Bible On Trial 5
Bible On Trial 6
If you get a chance, watch one and tell me if you would share it with your flock. They were not received well here at EvC, though I think that a lot of thought and information went into them. Critics will say that they are simply attempts at selling religion, but I have been open-minded enough to read what the critics say also. Seems the critics earn a living being critical and skeptical. Thus, the argument of motive applies equally to both sides.

As I examine my own belief, I confess that it is sometimes challenged quite harshly. I choose to not doubt that God exists and that Jesus is in my heart. I chose to ask Him in 25 years ago, and I have never dared to doubt my salvation. Just the fact that I feel like opening up publically about my faith and questions here on this forum...of all places...confirms Gods direction in my life.

I never intended to come to EvC to preach. I must admit that at one time I sought to convert members to my way of belief, but found them challenging me instead...and I did not run, as many Christians would have done. I grew to like the forum and the many discussions we had. I feel as if i had gone instead to a Christian forum, my faith never would have been tested nor would I understand how the critics of Christianity think and why they feel the way they do.
GDR(Greg) is one of my favorite Christians here...as he shows love to a forum of skeptics and critics who rarely if ever agree with him.

As we get ready for a New Year in 2019, there is much that needs discussing in this world we live in. Here is a video from a young man who talks a lot on YouTube. The Plastic Straw Dilemma

In this one, he discusses the concept of selective empathy.
Tell me what you think.

Is selective empathy one of the global problems related to human nature? Critics say that religion won't help the world. We believe that Jesus will. But how will this global awareness come about? I feel that simply sharing the Gospel no longer works for a skeptical and educated world.

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How were your holidays? Did you ever get a chance to watch the videos that I sent you?

I wanted to ask you also about your opinion of the TV Evangelists. Are any of them honestly seeking God or are they seeking fame, deception, and notoriety?

Finally, what do you think of this question?

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Where did you go? Im guessing that you are fasting from social media and getting back to your primary job of being a Pastor, which must involve a lot of prayer and sacrifice from your own free time. I had some more questions to continue our discussion. Besides, I am testing a theory which says that the more I talk to you, the angrier some of my secular friends will get. I have not yet written you off as a conman or willfully ignorant, as they have done. Comments?

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I have to leave to go visit my 95-year-old Mother at her assisted living facility. Its always an interesting time out there. All of her co-residents come up and talk to me also. I am off work for a week due to my (successful) eye surgery on Tuesday. Its amazing what modern medicine can do...but I'll respond to thee posts later. Hope your knee heals promptly....you sound busier at your age than I am at mine.(59)

ICANT writes: I have built roads, bridges multi story buildings and homes as well as churches. In building a home I can do anything from draw the blueprints and get them approved, clearing the lot with a bulldozer, and anything between that doing the finish touching up of the paint and cleaning up. That includes building the cabinets, doing all the electrical, plumbing, block and cement work, framing, and drywall. Plus run my own business.

My Father was a general contractor. He built over 100 houses here in Denver during his life and died at age 60 of cancer. He was not a religious man in that he never talked about Jesus, but he always thought of others. In fact, this was one of his favorite songs:
Others.

I have a question, though.

ICANT writes: ...In 2018 we knocked on over 2400 doors.

What was the reason? Did you tell everyone the same thing? Do you believe that it is your duty and call to tell everyone about Jesus and urge them to be open about a relationship with the living God? (I am guessing the answer is yes) and...if so....what of people such as my Daddy? Do you think he was given that opportunity at some point? Also...do you honestly worry that the Creator of all seen and unseen...the Living God of the universe, considers it important that every single person accepts a relationship with the living Jesus? (His character) or do you believe that He understands why many people...such as the ones here at EvC who have rejected the dogma of organized religion
don't ask Him? In other words, since they believe with their heart and mind that insufficient evidence exists that God is alive or exists does this provide them the right to live as good people without accepting Him? Personally, I think that this issue is between them and God.

I remember my Daddy as having a loving giving heart, but also a man that had not fully learned to be honest with himself and open up. I would have no guilt over missing the opportunity to simply share the Gospel with someone IF I knew that they already knew the basic message...and would leave it up to the Creator to reach them at some point now or shortly after they die. In other words, I won't feel guilty simply for not pushing Jesus onto them. Comments?

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A BETTER MEDIATOR

How are you doing, Pastor? A lot has been happening here in Denver recently. I won't get into the Labor Negotiations stuff...you can read about that in my other topic. What I wanted to talk about today were conversations that I had with two of my Pastors...or should I say former Pastors because one of them moved to California and the other one still heads up our church. To be honest, I don't get to church very often because I work on Sundays and also because I feel like I can't relate to the flock...they are very literalist and simple Bible Believing people who know very little about science and who never engage in any debates as we do here at EvC...though they are good at debating/discussing scripture.
Here is what Pastor Joe posts on Facebook.

A mediator is a person who seeks to resolve conflicts, bringing about a negotiated peace between two parties who are at odds with one another. The conflict between God and mankind is not one that a mediator can simply negotiate away. Something deep — God’s holiness — has been transgressed and the required mediation involves the offending party to make it right. The enmity between God and humanity calls for something much more significant than a typical negotiation. Something supernatural needs to occur to bring about a resolution in the conflict between God’s holiness and fallen human beings. Though we see Moses functioning as a mediator in Deuteronomy 5:5, Christians have a mediator who is far superior to him. In fact, this mediator satisfied the terms of the negotiation himself by taking the punishment required to bring about peace and right the wrongs caused by our unrighteousness (Jer 31:31 – 34; Heb 9:14 – 15). Whereas Moses was unable to ensure the Lord’s continued favor as the leader of the Israelites, Jesus secured eternal blessing for those who find righteousness in him. Whereas the people of Israel feared the presence of God because of their sin (Dt 5:5), Christians may enter the presence of God boldly because of a perfect standing before the Lord through Jesus (Eph 3:12). In Jesus and through faith in him, believers may approach God with freedom and confidence that they will not be rejected or judged for shortcomings. His righteous perfection covers imperfection and provides admission into the presence of God. What a mediator is Christ Jesus! Deuteronomy‬ ‭5:4-5‬ ‭NKJV‬‬

We can discuss this scripture if you want.

I have not heard from you in a while. You must be busy with your own flock doing the stuff you guys do.
Also, I wanted to share with you a conversation that I had with my Old Pastor in Cali. I edited the names so as to protect my friend's privacy. The conversation arose because of something I posted on Facebook. It was a New Age quote regarding the concept of love. I should have known that it would cause controversy!

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facebook discussion between myself and others writes: Pastor: You believe this? Me: I know that God is love...not some vague universal energy force...and I also know that Jesus embodies perfect love and that only through Him can we truly love. Which leads me to wonder why I'm still selfish and stingy... Mike: This is a new age philosophy bro not Biblical. Me: I know that it is, Mike. Technically it is called syncretism, I believe. Part truth and part error. I know the difference. My mind works by comparing different philosophies and discerning truth vs error. I never listen to just one side in an argument or discussion...except when I pray. Then I surrender to His wisdom. Sometimes I post something without having really read it thoroughly... When I teach, I present more than one argument (even if Jesus IS the right One ) so that people can see the subtle differences in philosophy. Pastor: do you not take heed during your preaching time (teaching) Galatians 1:8,9 into account? It was Paul bringing a rebuke, not once but twice. I believe there has been many of these brought to you. Now, do you also teach while presenting an argument other than the Gospel that the Gospel of Christ is not of mere man's wisdom? To me, it makes more logical sense to believe the one who received it by divine revelation. Besides, that’s more epic! And another thing, I don’t care what anyone says. I believe it. I’m sure after all these years of educating yourself with man's wisdom it’s taken a toll on you. Perhaps (this is) why you're teaching mans wisdom as you compare it to the Truth. In my opinion, you can’t compare apples to oranges. But, because I know you have always been into man's wisdom and ways I wouldn’t expect anything other. All the years and you're still pondering and intrigued by the man of this world. Peace and Grace to you Brother. Hope all is well. I’m enjoying California for this season. Me: I'm glad that you are doing well in Cali and I know that God is using you for a lot of great things. We really miss you here. I miss our arguments, and I have learned to accept rebuke...but a wise man seeks a multitude of council. This whole idea of "the Bible says it..that settles it" theology will not reach the current generation or the techno world of today without the power of the Holy Spirit. Now I will agree that Gods wisdom is superior to man's wisdom. I DO need to humble myself. I want to go to lunch with Pastor Joe one of these days. I will admit that I can be a rebel. Mike: If you abide in Me and My words abide in you, ask whatever you want and it will be given you. #REDLETTERJESUS apart from Me, you can do nothing! Me I can never argue with scripture...at least in the NT. Some of that OT stuff is puzzling, though. Like that one part about the sun stopping! Mark: May not be verbiage from the Bible, but the sentiment surely is biblical. Arthur Will u feel painfully remorseful Craig if you stepped on a worm? Me I can agree with my Pastors that human wisdom in and of itself is flawed. I do not consider myself a word for word literalist, but more of a thought for thought literalist. Let's take the story of the Flood. I have watched arguments about whether the event actually happened or not play themselves out many many times at EvC Forum, where I hang out. And in today's modern world one cannot be expected to literally believe this story without denying everything that humans have learned since the story was written. Pastor Age is right, though, in that sometimes you just have to believe. My point, if I have one, is that one need not believe a "Whole Bible" (in a word for word context) in order to be a believer. Mike: (Phat), do you believe God lies to His people? Me: ok...I'll go with this...WHO are His people? (For the record I believe that God cannot lie.) Mike His people are whosoever believes, His whole word is truth yet when He says he stopped the sun, you call it a lie.

It goes on...

What would you say if you were a part of that conversation?

The rest of you can comment here:
Peanut Gallery Comments on Great Debate

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ICANT writes: I have been having a lot of trouble with my 2nd knee replacement surgery. Besides taking care of my duties as pastor. Age is becoming a real problem as I will be 81 in 3 months. This old body of flesh is wearing out.

I have a couple of church related questions for you, Pastor.
1) Was your church affected by the recent social distancing guidelines and did it close for awhile or were you able to work around these legalities since your congregation is so small?
2) Do you believe that we are in the Last Days as a nation and/or world or do you simply teach as you have always taught and not worry about such extreme theology? I try and keep a balanced and open mind regarding such topics though I believe that we will see it within the next 100 years. I always joke with my customers in line at work. I tell them that God is warning America similar to how God warned Israel years before judgement. Essentially we are in a dress rehearsal and the Lord is challenging us to really try our best as people to get along with each other, respect each other, and essentially follow what Jesus taught were the two greatest commandments.

Also I wanted you to watch one of my favorite revivalist Pastors---in my opinion he is not selling snake oil and he is a much needed fire for the younger people in an otherwise apathetic church. Watch Isaiah Saldivar and tell me what you think of him.

Isaiah reaches much of his audience via the internet, though he also travels to churches to speak--under normal conditions. COVID-19 caused him to do more on the internet, but he is in my opinion a gifted Pastor with an Apostolic anointing who genuinely cares about the church in America today. Show him to some of the younger people in your congregation.

The rest of you can comment here:
Peanut Gallery Comments on Great Debate

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There are five things you need to know to tell a story or understand it. 1. Who is speaking/writing? 2. To whom or about whom is he speaking/writing? 3. What subject is he speaking/writing about? 4. When or about what time is he speaking/writing? 5. What is the occasion for the speaking or writing? We need to add the proper application rule to understand the Bible. There is the general application of a truth or deed to every person. And The particular application of a truth or deed to an individual or particular group. The first thing you need to know is who is speaking or writing? 1. Sometime God is speaking. 2. Sometime angels are speaking. 3. Sometime the devil is speaking. 4. Sometime prophets are speaking. 5. Sometime wicked men are speaking. 6. Sometime apostles are speaking.

Also some more Isaiah. I really respect the anointing this young man has.

How are you doing, ICANT? I edited this post because I wanted to show you what Isaiah Saldivar is preaching/teaching sharing with the public regarding COVID 19.

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Watch this presentation. A man with as much math knowledge as the late Dr.Hawking talks about the two worldviews of materialism and spiritual Trinitarian Monotheism that you and I are familiar with.

I wanted to share with you a local Pastor whom I respect. I respect him for several reasons. He is not political. He knows the Bible. He is humble and honest.

Though he preaches on fire....most folks here will think him to be a raging maniac.