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Author | Topic: Peanut Gallery Comments on Great Debate | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Phat Member Posts: 18655 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 4.4 |
I specifically set this topic up so that any member who wishes to comment on what I and ICANT are talking about can do so without interrupting the flow of our discussion.
Tangle, feel free to comment here. I will reproduce your comment:
Tangle writes: We can discuss these things here. I value your input even if it is not what I believe. That's what I find challenging about talking/listening to you. This is a discussion forum, and I need to talk with ICANT as much as with you or ringo. Nobody here is going to lead me anywhere. ICANT writes: But I studied something in the 7th grade in journalism class that can help anyone to better understand what they read. We studied it so we would know how to write a story to tell what we were reporting on.There are five things you need to know to tell a story or understand it. 1. Who is speaking/writing?2. To whom or about whom is he speaking/writing? 3. What subject is he speaking/writing about? 4. When or about what time is he speaking/writing? 5. What is the occasion for the speaking or writing? Phat, as always ICANT only tells you part of the story, deliberately withholding the most important so that he can lead you by the nose: 6. WHY is the person telling me this and why now? He also omits the most important journalistic principles of all, consider your source, check everything and remain independent.
quote: The elements of journalism - American Press Institute Edited by Phat, : added Tangle Edited by Phat, : No reason given.Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.~Stile
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Tangle Member Posts: 9583 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 6.7 |
Thanks Phat, I've just read your little history and thought it rather lovely. But back to the fight.
I worry for you, you are already kowtowing to the disingenuous and ignorant ICANT who you are now already calling 'Pastor'. If you want to make progress with this little journey of yours you need to take a couple of steps backwards and squint a little. Use that essential journalistic feature he didn't tell you about, independence of thought and position. He's already lied to you by telling you that the omitted 6th feature of good reasoning is covered by his fifth of the occasion which is absolutely wrong. The requirement to ask oneself WHY someone is telling you something and telling you it NOW, gets to the agenda of the speaker and asks about his motivation. It's a skeptical question - consider your source.
quote: Beware the snakeoil salesman even if you're in pain.Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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vimesey Member (Idle past 333 days) Posts: 1398 From: Birmingham, England Joined:
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Beware the snakeoil salesman even if you're in pain. Most particularly when you're in pain.Could there be any greater conceit, than for someone to believe that the universe has to be simple enough for them to be able to understand it ?
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Phat Member Posts: 18655 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 4.4 |
Tangle, addressing the Great Debate writes: I worry for you, you are already kowtowing to the disingenuous and ignorant ICANT who you are now already calling 'Pastor'. If you want to make progress with this little journey of yours you need to take a couple of steps backwards and squint a little. Use that essential journalistic feature he didn't tell you about, independence of thought and position. I am talking with ICANT, who actually is a Baptist Pastor, by the way..in the context of discussing my religious beliefs. I am not coming at him as an unbiased journalist who is questioning his beliefs. Granted you would do that...which is fine. It is good to have an open mind. In the context of a discussion between ICANT and myself, however, the qualifier which we have in common is that we both believe that God exists and that the Bible is, as you yourself would say, the written record of our belief.
Tangle, speaking of ICANT writes: Perhaps he is not lying. Perhaps he was only taught five things. I know that I was taught the same 5 things from a parishioner in the church I used to attend. You may well expand your argument and claim that all of Christianity lies to its flock if it tells them not to be skeptical and unbiased, but that's another topic. Keep in mind that a Pastor is not going to tell his flock to be skeptical. He likely would quote 2 Timothy 3:14-17. He's already lied to you by telling you that the omitted 6th feature of good reasoning is covered by his fifth of the occasion which is absolutely wrong. The requirement to ask oneself WHY someone is telling you something and telling you it NOW gets to the agenda of the speaker and asks about his motivation. It's a skeptical question - consider your source.But as for you, continue in what you have learned and have firmly believed, knowing from whom you learned it and how from childhood you have been acquainted with the sacred writings, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus. All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, that the man of God may be competent, equipped for every good work. As I get to develop my conversation with the Pastor I may ask him certain questions pertaining to "why" but I'm not going to throw down and question if God exists or why I must be under church authority. If I were to call you Pastor Tangle, I may well ask why you dismissed church and told us all to go fishing, but then again, maybe I would not ask why. Edited by Phat, : No reason given.Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.~Stile
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Tangle Member Posts: 9583 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 6.7 |
Well I can only wish you luck but if you go in with that supplicant, student:teacher attitude I can tell you now what will happen. You'll be patronised to death and preached at til the cows come home.
Surely you can get that sort of treatment back home? I thought this was about asking the difficult questions, not being spoonfed platitudes. And yes, ICANT is a pastor, and I have 4 degrees in 4 different subjects but so what? On these boards he's just another guy with an opinion that needs challenging critically. And what's more he's demonstrated that he's disingenuous and ill-informed - this isn't church.Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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Phat Member Posts: 18655 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 4.4
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Tangle writes: It means that you read at least 4 books! ICANT read only one. And yes, ICANT is a pastor, and I have 4 degrees in 4 different subjects but so what?Tangle writes: Which is why we have this peanut gallery thread. On these boards he's just another guy with an opinion that needs challenging critically. Tangle writes: In the confines of the Great Debate, it is as if I am in church asking the pastor some questions. If he comes across to me as disingenuous And what's more he's demonstrated that he's disingenuous and ill-informed - this isn't church.Google Dictionary writes: I will address it. Until then I will continue asking questions.
not candid or sincere, typically by pretending that one knows less about something than one really does.insincere dishonest untruthful false deceitful duplicitous lying mendacious hypocritical Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.~Stile
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Tangle Member Posts: 9583 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 6.7 |
Phat writes: Tangle is a man with 4 degrees who warns me to avoid you. No, no no! Stop interpolating if you possibly can. I don't want you to avoid him because you obviously have some stuff you need to discuss, I'm just saying do it objectively with skepticism. You can get patronised and preached at in your church.Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm. |
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AZPaul3 Member Posts: 8655 From: Phoenix Joined: Member Rating: 6.7 |
this isn't church. Isn't it? And we get to watch and comment/argue about everything going on in this ever-so-public church in which a man searches for his soul while another man is hunting for it.
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Tangle Member Posts: 9583 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 6.7 |
AZP writes: Isn't it? And we get to watch and comment/argue about everything going on in this ever-so-public church in which a man searches for his soul while another man is hunting for it. I know, the way it's set up it's going to be a horrible thing to watch. Poor old Phat doesn't stand a chance, the Sharman will feed him his own soul and Phat will thank him for it.Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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ringo Member (Idle past 672 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
An image that I've used before: A parakeet fighting with his own image in the mirror. I am talking with ICANT, who actually is a Baptist Pastor, by the way..in the context of discussing my religious beliefs. I am not coming at him as an unbiased journalist who is questioning his beliefs.And our geese will blot out the sun.
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Phat Member Posts: 18655 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 4.4 |
To be honest, we are birds of a feather only in that we both believe that God exists and that the Bible is the final authority. I even question that sometimes, but I would prefer not to allign myself with the critical thinking atheist/agnostic/humanist crowd who thinks the way you do. Talk about parakeets! You guys all get along in the cage! The Pastor favors gun laws..I question them. The Pastor is part of a conservative denomination whereas I am more of a moderate. The Pastor is a staunch believer in Genesis 1 as am I. I believe that in the Beginning, God created the Heavens and the Earth. The entire Universe and any subsequent Multi Verses that may someday be proven.
I also believe in John 1. John 1:1-2 writes: Apart from that, I do not believe that the Bible is word for word literal. I believe that it is metaphorically and thought for thought God-Breathed, however. Were I to throw it away as just another book or ancient book of fables, I would have no standing with which to base my belief in Jesus Christ...apart from my inner certainty that He lives.
1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was with God in the beginning. NIV We have discussed this stuff to death and back to resurrection again. You tell me that only the basic message is important. So what think ye about Genesis 1 and John 1:1-2? Are they as important or inspired as your precious Matthew 25:31? And lets keep this discussion limited to what ICANT and I speak about in our discussion. (Except you can answer me) ICANT is a Baptist Pastor. I am specifically seeking a conversation with a Pastor. Not a Contrarian from Saskatchewan. Edited by Phat, : sub titleChance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.~Stile
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Phat Member Posts: 18655 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 4.4 |
I think you must mean Shaman.
Google Dictionary writes: I dont look to any man as having powers any greater than I do. Even the Independent Baptists that ICANTs church belong to have these rules:
a person regarded as having access to, and influence in, the world of good and evil spirits, especially among some peoples of northern Asia and North America. Typically such people enter a trance state during a ritual, and practice divination and healing.GotQuestions writes:
I believe the second point more fervently than the first, though I'm open to discussion about it. God is the final authority in my mind and heart...its just a matter of understanding and arriving at same. Edited by Phat, : No reason given. Edited by Phat, : No reason given.Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.~Stile
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ringo Member (Idle past 672 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
You don't have to be an atheist/agnostic to be a critical thinker or a humanist.
... I would prefer not to allign myself with the critical thinking atheist/agnostic/humanist crowd who thinks the way you do. Phat writes:
On the contrary, the people on my "side" give me a much rougher ride when they disagree with me.
Talk about parakeets! You guys all get along in the cage! Phat writes:
You cherry-pick and sanitize, with no rationale except what is palatable.
Apart from that, I do not believe that the Bible is word for word literal. Phat writes:
Genesis 1 is demonstrably wrong about how it happened, so how can you trust its claims about who did it? So what think ye about Genesis 1 and John 1:1-2? John 1:1-2 is an obvious metaphor.
Phat writes:
We don't need "inspiration" to behave properly. The apostle Paul said so. Obviously, proper behaviour is more important than misinformation and/or metaphoric mumbo-jumbo.
Are they as important or inspired as your precious Matthew 25:31? Phat writes:
I'm not going to read ICANT's rubbish if I'm not allowed to respond directly. If you don't want me to respond in this thread, don't make yourself a target.
And lets keep this discussion limited to what ICANT and I speak about in our discussion. Phat writes:
You don't have to seek me. If you're here, you're a target. ICANT is a Baptist Pastor. I am specifically seeking a conversation with a Pastor. Not a Contrarian from Saskatchewan.And our geese will blot out the sun.
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Phat Member Posts: 18655 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 4.4 |
You can say whatever you want in this thread then. Its gotta come out somewhere!
Explain again why you don't claim to be an atheist yet state that God is fiction. I can't find the answer that you gave me once.
ringo writes: Genesis 1 does not claim anything about how it happened...unless you mean that God is fiction. In which case if the shoe fits.... Genesis 1 is demonstrably wrong about how it happened, so how can you trust its claims about who did it?John 1:1-2 is an obvious metaphor. Edited by Phat, : No reason given.Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.~Stile
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ringo Member (Idle past 672 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
Well, specifically YOUR God is fiction. Even you don't believe all of the stories about Him. The only difference between us is that I don't believe the cherry-flavoured ones either. Explain again why you don't claim to be an atheist yet state that God is fiction. I don't know much about most other gods, so it's possible that one or more of them might be real.
Phat writes:
Of course it does. It claims there were plants before the sun was created, for example. Genesis 1 does not claim anything about how it happened...And our geese will blot out the sun.
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