Understanding through Discussion


Welcome! You are not logged in. [ Login ]
EvC Forum active members: 87 (8891 total)
Current session began: 
Page Loaded: 02-22-2019 4:47 AM
152 online now:
PaulK, vimesey (2 members, 150 visitors)
Chatting now:  Chat room empty
Newest Member: WookieeB
Upcoming Birthdays: CosmicChimp
Post Volume:
Total: 847,770 Year: 2,807/19,786 Month: 889/1,918 Week: 176/301 Day: 1/27 Hour: 0/0


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
1
234567Next
Author Topic:   Peanut Gallery Comments on Great Debate
Phat
Member
Posts: 12049
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.4


Message 1 of 92 (845168)
12-12-2018 6:44 PM


Tangles Comment
I specifically set this topic up so that any member who wishes to comment on what I and ICANT are talking about can do so without interrupting the flow of our discussion.

Tangle, feel free to comment here. I will reproduce your comment:

Tangle writes:

ICANT writes:

But I studied something in the 7th grade in journalism class that can help anyone to better understand what they read. We studied it so we would know how to write a story to tell what we were reporting on.
There are five things you need to know to tell a story or understand it.

1. Who is speaking/writing?
2. To whom or about whom is he speaking/writing?
3. What subject is he speaking/writing about?
4. When or about what time is he speaking/writing?
5. What is the occasion for the speaking or writing?

Phat, as always ICANT only tells you part of the story, deliberately withholding the most important so that he can lead you by the nose:

6. WHY is the person telling me this and why now?

He also omits the most important journalistic principles of all, consider your source, check everything and remain independent.

quote:
Its [journalism's] practitioners must maintain an independence from those they cover

Independence is a cornerstone of reliability.

On one level, it means not becoming seduced by sources, intimidated by power, or compromised by self-interest. On a deeper level it speaks to an independence of spirit and an open-mindedness and intellectual curiosity that helps the journalist see beyond his or her own class or economic status, race, ethnicity, religion, gender or ego.


https://www.americanpressinstitute.org/...lements-journalism

We can discuss these things here. I value your input even if it is not what I believe. That's what I find challenging about talking/listening to you. This is a discussion forum, and I need to talk with ICANT as much as with you or ringo. Nobody here is going to lead me anywhere.

Edited by Phat, : added Tangle

Edited by Phat, : No reason given.


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
~Stile


Replies to this message:
 Message 2 by Tangle, posted 12-13-2018 4:02 AM Phat has responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 6618
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 3.5


Message 2 of 92 (845186)
12-13-2018 4:02 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Phat
12-12-2018 6:44 PM


Re: Tangles Comment
Thanks Phat, I've just read your little history and thought it rather lovely. But back to the fight.

I worry for you, you are already kowtowing to the disingenuous and ignorant ICANT who you are now already calling 'Pastor'. If you want to make progress with this little journey of yours you need to take a couple of steps backwards and squint a little. Use that essential journalistic feature he didn't tell you about, independence of thought and position.

He's already lied to you by telling you that the omitted 6th feature of good reasoning is covered by his fifth of the occasion which is absolutely wrong. The requirement to ask oneself WHY someone is telling you something and telling you it NOW, gets to the agenda of the speaker and asks about his motivation. It's a skeptical question - consider your source.

quote:
it means not becoming seduced by sources, intimidated by power, or compromised by self-interest. On a deeper level it speaks to an independence of spirit and an open-mindedness and intellectual curiosity that helps the journalist see beyond his or her own class or economic status, race, ethnicity, religion, gender or ego.

Beware the snakeoil salesman even if you're in pain.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Phat, posted 12-12-2018 6:44 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 3 by vimesey, posted 12-13-2018 4:19 AM Tangle has not yet responded
 Message 4 by Phat, posted 12-13-2018 2:19 PM Tangle has responded

  
vimesey
Member
Posts: 930
From: Birmingham, England
Joined: 09-21-2011
Member Rating: 7.1


(1)
Message 3 of 92 (845189)
12-13-2018 4:19 AM
Reply to: Message 2 by Tangle
12-13-2018 4:02 AM


Re: Tangles Comment
Beware the snakeoil salesman even if you're in pain.

Most particularly when you're in pain.


Could there be any greater conceit, than for someone to believe that the universe has to be simple enough for them to be able to understand it ?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2 by Tangle, posted 12-13-2018 4:02 AM Tangle has not yet responded

    
Phat
Member
Posts: 12049
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.4


Message 4 of 92 (845225)
12-13-2018 2:19 PM
Reply to: Message 2 by Tangle
12-13-2018 4:02 AM


Re: Tangles Comment
Tangle, addressing the Great Debate writes:

I worry for you, you are already kowtowing to the disingenuous and ignorant ICANT who you are now already calling 'Pastor'. If you want to make progress with this little journey of yours you need to take a couple of steps backwards and squint a little. Use that essential journalistic feature he didn't tell you about, independence of thought and position.

I am talking with ICANT, who actually is a Baptist Pastor, by the way..in the context of discussing my religious beliefs. I am not coming at him as an unbiased journalist who is questioning his beliefs. Granted you would do that...which is fine. It is good to have an open mind. In the context of a discussion between ICANT and myself, however, the qualifier which we have in common is that we both believe that God exists and that the Bible is, as you yourself would say, the written record of our belief.

Tangle, speaking of ICANT writes:

He's already lied to you by telling you that the omitted 6th feature of good reasoning is covered by his fifth of the occasion which is absolutely wrong. The requirement to ask oneself WHY someone is telling you something and telling you it NOW gets to the agenda of the speaker and asks about his motivation. It's a skeptical question - consider your source.

Perhaps he is not lying. Perhaps he was only taught five things. I know that I was taught the same 5 things from a parishioner in the church I used to attend. You may well expand your argument and claim that all of Christianity lies to its flock if it tells them not to be skeptical and unbiased, but that's another topic. Keep in mind that a Pastor is not going to tell his flock to be skeptical. He likely would quote 2 Timothy 3:14-17.
But as for you, continue in what you have learned and have firmly believed, knowing from whom you learned it and how from childhood you have been acquainted with the sacred writings, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus. All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, that the man of God may be competent, equipped for every good work.
As I get to develop my conversation with the Pastor I may ask him certain questions pertaining to "why" but I'm not going to throw down and question if God exists or why I must be under church authority. If I were to call you Pastor Tangle, I may well ask why you dismissed church and told us all to go fishing, but then again, maybe I would not ask why.

Edited by Phat, : No reason given.


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
~Stile


This message is a reply to:
 Message 2 by Tangle, posted 12-13-2018 4:02 AM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 5 by Tangle, posted 12-13-2018 2:33 PM Phat has responded
 Message 10 by ringo, posted 12-14-2018 11:26 AM Phat has responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 6618
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 3.5


Message 5 of 92 (845227)
12-13-2018 2:33 PM
Reply to: Message 4 by Phat
12-13-2018 2:19 PM


Re: Tangles Comment
Well I can only wish you luck but if you go in with that supplicant, student:teacher attitude I can tell you now what will happen. You'll be patronised to death and preached at til the cows come home.

Surely you can get that sort of treatment back home? I thought this was about asking the difficult questions, not being spoonfed platitudes.

And yes, ICANT is a pastor, and I have 4 degrees in 4 different subjects but so what? On these boards he's just another guy with an opinion that needs challenging critically. And what's more he's demonstrated that he's disingenuous and ill-informed - this isn't church.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 4 by Phat, posted 12-13-2018 2:19 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 6 by Phat, posted 12-13-2018 2:42 PM Tangle has not yet responded
 Message 8 by AZPaul3, posted 12-13-2018 3:55 PM Tangle has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 12049
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.4


(1)
Message 6 of 92 (845228)
12-13-2018 2:42 PM
Reply to: Message 5 by Tangle
12-13-2018 2:33 PM


Four degrees Of Kevin Bacon
Tangle writes:

And yes, ICANT is a pastor, and I have 4 degrees in 4 different subjects but so what?

It means that you read at least 4 books! ICANT read only one.
Tangle writes:

On these boards he's just another guy with an opinion that needs challenging critically.

Which is why we have this peanut gallery thread.
Tangle writes:

And what's more he's demonstrated that he's disingenuous and ill-informed - this isn't church.

In the confines of the Great Debate, it is as if I am in church asking the pastor some questions. If he comes across to me as disingenuous
Google Dictionary writes:


not candid or sincere, typically by pretending that one knows less about something than one really does.
insincere dishonest untruthful false deceitful duplicitous lying mendacious hypocritical

I will address it. Until then I will continue asking questions.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
~Stile


This message is a reply to:
 Message 5 by Tangle, posted 12-13-2018 2:33 PM Tangle has not yet responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 6618
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 3.5


Message 7 of 92 (845235)
12-13-2018 3:48 PM


Phat writes:

Tangle is a man with 4 degrees who warns me to avoid you.

No, no no! Stop interpolating if you possibly can.

I don't want you to avoid him because you obviously have some stuff you need to discuss, I'm just saying do it objectively with skepticism. You can get patronised and preached at in your church.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 3764
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 4.3


Message 8 of 92 (845236)
12-13-2018 3:55 PM
Reply to: Message 5 by Tangle
12-13-2018 2:33 PM


Re: Tangles Comment
this isn't church.

Isn't it? And we get to watch and comment/argue about everything going on in this ever-so-public church in which a man searches for his soul while another man is hunting for it.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 5 by Tangle, posted 12-13-2018 2:33 PM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 9 by Tangle, posted 12-13-2018 4:23 PM AZPaul3 has acknowledged this reply

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 6618
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 3.5


Message 9 of 92 (845242)
12-13-2018 4:23 PM
Reply to: Message 8 by AZPaul3
12-13-2018 3:55 PM


Re: Tangles Comment
AZP writes:

Isn't it? And we get to watch and comment/argue about everything going on in this ever-so-public church in which a man searches for his soul while another man is hunting for it.

I know, the way it's set up it's going to be a horrible thing to watch. Poor old Phat doesn't stand a chance, the Sharman will feed him his own soul and Phat will thank him for it.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 8 by AZPaul3, posted 12-13-2018 3:55 PM AZPaul3 has acknowledged this reply

Replies to this message:
 Message 12 by Phat, posted 12-14-2018 12:01 PM Tangle has not yet responded
 Message 21 by ICANT, posted 12-14-2018 12:47 PM Tangle has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 16147
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 3.0


Message 10 of 92 (845331)
12-14-2018 11:26 AM
Reply to: Message 4 by Phat
12-13-2018 2:19 PM


Re: Tangles Comment
Phat writes:

I am talking with ICANT, who actually is a Baptist Pastor, by the way..in the context of discussing my religious beliefs. I am not coming at him as an unbiased journalist who is questioning his beliefs.


An image that I've used before: A parakeet fighting with his own image in the mirror.

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 4 by Phat, posted 12-13-2018 2:19 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 11 by Phat, posted 12-14-2018 11:48 AM ringo has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 12049
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.4


Message 11 of 92 (845333)
12-14-2018 11:48 AM
Reply to: Message 10 by ringo
12-14-2018 11:26 AM


Birds Of A Feather
To be honest, we are birds of a feather only in that we both believe that God exists and that the Bible is the final authority. I even question that sometimes, but I would prefer not to allign myself with the critical thinking atheist/agnostic/humanist crowd who thinks the way you do. Talk about parakeets! You guys all get along in the cage! The Pastor favors gun laws..I question them. The Pastor is part of a conservative denomination whereas I am more of a moderate. The Pastor is a staunch believer in Genesis 1 as am I. I believe that in the Beginning, God created the Heavens and the Earth. The entire Universe and any subsequent Multi Verses that may someday be proven.

I also believe in John 1.

John 1:1-2 writes:


1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was with God in the beginning. NIV

Apart from that, I do not believe that the Bible is word for word literal. I believe that it is metaphorically and thought for thought God-Breathed, however. Were I to throw it away as just another book or ancient book of fables, I would have no standing with which to base my belief in Jesus Christ...apart from my inner certainty that He lives.

We have discussed this stuff to death and back to resurrection again.

You tell me that only the basic message is important. So what think ye about Genesis 1 and John 1:1-2? Are they as important or inspired as your precious Matthew 25:31?

And lets keep this discussion limited to what ICANT and I speak about in our discussion. (Except you can answer me)

ICANT is a Baptist Pastor. I am specifically seeking a conversation with a Pastor.

Not a Contrarian from Saskatchewan.

Edited by Phat, : sub title


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
~Stile


This message is a reply to:
 Message 10 by ringo, posted 12-14-2018 11:26 AM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 13 by ringo, posted 12-14-2018 12:04 PM Phat has responded
 Message 26 by ICANT, posted 12-14-2018 2:00 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 12049
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.4


Message 12 of 92 (845334)
12-14-2018 12:01 PM
Reply to: Message 9 by Tangle
12-13-2018 4:23 PM


Don't Squeeze The Sharmin.
I think you must mean Shaman.
Google Dictionary writes:

a person regarded as having access to, and influence in, the world of good and evil spirits, especially among some peoples of northern Asia and North America. Typically such people enter a trance state during a ritual, and practice divination and healing.

I dont look to any man as having powers any greater than I do. Even the Independent Baptists that ICANTs church belong to have these rules:
GotQuestions writes:


  • Independent Baptists interpret Scripture literally. They do claim to interpret based on the historical-grammatical context, but if a literal interpretation “makes good sense,” then that is the understanding they take from Scripture.
  • IFB churches believe that each believer has the ability to interact with God on his or her own. No one is required to use a priest, as in the Old Testament, to connect with God.
  • I believe the second point more fervently than the first, though I'm open to discussion about it. God is the final authority in my mind and heart...its just a matter of understanding and arriving at same.

    Edited by Phat, : No reason given.

    Edited by Phat, : No reason given.


    Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
    ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

    You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

    Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
    In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
    ~Stile


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 9 by Tangle, posted 12-13-2018 4:23 PM Tangle has not yet responded

      
    ringo
    Member
    Posts: 16147
    From: frozen wasteland
    Joined: 03-23-2005
    Member Rating: 3.0


    Message 13 of 92 (845335)
    12-14-2018 12:04 PM
    Reply to: Message 11 by Phat
    12-14-2018 11:48 AM


    Re: Tangles Comment
    Phat writes:

    ... I would prefer not to allign myself with the critical thinking atheist/agnostic/humanist crowd who thinks the way you do.


    You don't have to be an atheist/agnostic to be a critical thinker or a humanist.

    Phat writes:

    Talk about parakeets! You guys all get along in the cage!


    On the contrary, the people on my "side" give me a much rougher ride when they disagree with me.

    Phat writes:

    Apart from that, I do not believe that the Bible is word for word literal.


    You cherry-pick and sanitize, with no rationale except what is palatable.

    Phat writes:

    So what think ye about Genesis 1 and John 1:1-2?


    Genesis 1 is demonstrably wrong about how it happened, so how can you trust its claims about who did it?

    John 1:1-2 is an obvious metaphor.

    Phat writes:

    Are they as important or inspired as your precious Matthew 25:31?


    We don't need "inspiration" to behave properly. The apostle Paul said so. Obviously, proper behaviour is more important than misinformation and/or metaphoric mumbo-jumbo.

    Phat writes:

    And lets keep this discussion limited to what ICANT and I speak about in our discussion.


    I'm not going to read ICANT's rubbish if I'm not allowed to respond directly. If you don't want me to respond in this thread, don't make yourself a target.

    Phat writes:

    ICANT is a Baptist Pastor. I am specifically seeking a conversation with a Pastor.

    Not a Contrarian from Saskatchewan.


    You don't have to seek me. If you're here, you're a target.

    And our geese will blot out the sun.

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 11 by Phat, posted 12-14-2018 11:48 AM Phat has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 14 by Phat, posted 12-14-2018 12:08 PM ringo has responded

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 12049
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.4


    Message 14 of 92 (845336)
    12-14-2018 12:08 PM
    Reply to: Message 13 by ringo
    12-14-2018 12:04 PM


    Ringo Targets All Of Us
    You can say whatever you want in this thread then. Its gotta come out somewhere!

    Explain again why you don't claim to be an atheist yet state that God is fiction. I can't find the answer that you gave me once.

    ringo writes:

    Genesis 1 is demonstrably wrong about how it happened, so how can you trust its claims about who did it?
    John 1:1-2 is an obvious metaphor.

    Genesis 1 does not claim anything about how it happened...unless you mean that God is fiction. In which case if the shoe fits....

    Edited by Phat, : No reason given.


    Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
    ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

    You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

    Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
    In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
    ~Stile


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 13 by ringo, posted 12-14-2018 12:04 PM ringo has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 15 by ringo, posted 12-14-2018 12:18 PM Phat has responded

      
    ringo
    Member
    Posts: 16147
    From: frozen wasteland
    Joined: 03-23-2005
    Member Rating: 3.0


    Message 15 of 92 (845338)
    12-14-2018 12:18 PM
    Reply to: Message 14 by Phat
    12-14-2018 12:08 PM


    Re: Ringo Targets All Of Us
    Phat writes:

    Explain again why you don't claim to be an atheist yet state that God is fiction.


    Well, specifically YOUR God is fiction. Even you don't believe all of the stories about Him. The only difference between us is that I don't believe the cherry-flavoured ones either.

    I don't know much about most other gods, so it's possible that one or more of them might be real.

    Phat writes:

    Genesis 1 does not claim anything about how it happened...


    Of course it does. It claims there were plants before the sun was created, for example.

    And our geese will blot out the sun.

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 14 by Phat, posted 12-14-2018 12:08 PM Phat has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 16 by Phat, posted 12-14-2018 12:19 PM ringo has responded

      
    1
    234567Next
    Newer Topic | Older Topic
    Jump to:


    Copyright 2001-2018 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

    ™ Version 4.0 Beta
    Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2019