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Author Topic:   Peanut Gallery Comments on Great Debate
Tangle
Member
Posts: 8149
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 3.7


Message 166 of 176 (886709)
06-01-2021 4:44 AM


And here we have a repeat of the tired old misunderstanding of what atheism/secularism/humanism is - a variant of the old atheism as a belief routine.

“I think when it comes to ethics, the secularist is often (not always) a theist in disguise. Many who I speak to (and love as friends) care deeply about the modern human sex trafficking epidemic, or female circumcision, or LGBT+ rights, but at the core of secularism there is no real reason to. We might be able to observe some things as in general, negative or positive for the human race, but to claim that we ought to take action to rectify injustice in the world requires for things to be objectively unjust.”

He's saying that because we care about others there must be a god. What utter nonsense. It's a total non sequitur.

We care about others because we know that pain and suffering hurts; we have an emotion called empathy and a conscious mind that feels some of that suffering ourselves. So of course we dislike it and feel like want to do something about it.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


  
ringo
Member
Posts: 19061
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 3.1


Message 167 of 176 (886723)
06-01-2021 12:41 PM


Phat writes:

... let the record show that I am in no way obsequious nor worshipful towards Raphael and consider him a brother in Christ and nothing more. Tangle has some rather odd view of me based on my conversations with Pastor ICANT....


The record shows that you have an exaggerated high regard for "pastors" - certainly not justified in the case of ICANT.

"I've been to Moose Jaw, now I can die." -- John Wing

  
anglagard
Member
Posts: 2305
From: Socorro, New Mexico USA
Joined: 03-18-2006
Member Rating: 6.5


Message 168 of 176 (886725)
06-02-2021 12:14 AM


Eat My Shorts
The Great Debate between Raphael and Phat appears to be between a 7th and a wannabe 7th. Now if Phat wants to be a 7th, well better than Pentecost, he may not be Christian but he sure will make a great orthodox Jew (but you will still have to learn way more than any "pastor" could begin to conceive of.)

All these calisthenics to avoid what Jesus said in the Gospels, since neither of you will apparently do it on your own, becomes the purview of the scholar. Summer solstice, June 21 or more accurately the day or two after. I will throw everything Jesus ever purportedly said that you hate above all things, right into both you faces.

That is not just a promise, not just a guarantee, for you it will be a reckoning.


The problem with knowing everything is learning nothing.

If you don't know what you're doing, find someone who does, and do what they do.

Republican = death


Replies to this message:
 Message 171 by Phat, posted 06-13-2021 11:31 AM anglagard has not yet responded

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 16857
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 4.0


Message 169 of 176 (886859)
06-13-2021 5:21 AM


Addressing Message 10

quote:
He had some unique perspectives on scripture that I had rarely heard elsewhere. One example is the idea that "the God" lied and the snake(serpent) told the truth. No apologist nor teacher had ever taught me that before, and to this day I am uncomfortable with it.

As the story is written the snake told the truth. That cannot be honestly disputed (it can be dishonestly disputed - as you’ve demonstrated). Whether or not God lied (rather than - for instance - changed his mind) relies more on interpretation and ideas about the nature, history and purpose of the story.

But I think it’s telling that you are far more comfortable with misrepresenting the Bible to make it fit with your beliefs than you are with accepting that it says something you don’t like.

quote:
Ringo takes it a step further. He basically believes that the message is more important than the messenger, even if the messenger was (and is) Jesus Christ.

That can be read as saying that Jesus Christ is incapable of carrying a message worth hearing - and that does seem to sum up your actual position. The roots of the disagreement are your insistence that the message is not important. It looks to me like an excuse for idolatry - it’s important to believe that God wrote the Bible because the men you worship say so - it’s not important to believe that Bible because that’s only what God says (far less important).

quote:
He uses only what is written to speak on behalf of Jesus, however

Which would be the way that you get Jesus’ message. You’re not going to find what Jesus said anywhere else. (Personally I doubt that you can get a reliable idea of what Jesus actually said even then - but Christians disagree, and it’s not as if you have any better sources).


Replies to this message:
 Message 170 by Phat, posted 06-13-2021 11:24 AM PaulK has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 15361
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 170 of 176 (886863)
06-13-2021 11:24 AM
Reply to: Message 169 by PaulK
06-13-2021 5:21 AM


Better Sources? We Have Rhema
PaulK writes:

I think it’s telling that you are far more comfortable with misrepresenting the Bible to make it fit with your beliefs than you are with accepting that it says something you don’t like

In my belief, the Bible is best represented at conveying what GOD (The One above all others...Jesus Father...the Creator of all seen and unseen) means for us to know rather than us taking the book as a human creation and simply breaking down what humans of a particular period believed. If GOD does not speak through this book, it is as mundane and transitory as any philosophical book from any religion at any time in history. It no longer speaks as authoritative. ringo can claim that the message has value, though it is but humanistic, evolving, subjective value in that case. At the risk of misrepresenting the Bible, we only seek to represent what GOD (later through Jesus) said to humanity. Take that belief away and we would drop the book like it was a chick tract.
That can be read as saying that Jesus Christ is incapable of carrying a message worth hearing - and that does seem to sum up your actual position. The roots of the disagreement are your insistence that the message is not important.
Not at al. My point is that Jesus (Being eternally alive) speaks to us today....we don't simply follow the words of humans who lived two thousand years ago. We may as well write our own book if that were the case. The key belief supporting this position is Rhema Word. If Logos...The written word from 2000 years ago...is the only record of what Jesus said, and if Jesus is believed to be just another human who lived and died...the 2000-year-old words are little more than philosophy and good human advice.

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
- Criss Jami, Killo

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 169 by PaulK, posted 06-13-2021 5:21 AM PaulK has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 172 by PaulK, posted 06-13-2021 11:47 AM Phat has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 15361
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 171 of 176 (886864)
06-13-2021 11:31 AM
Reply to: Message 168 by anglagard
06-02-2021 12:14 AM


Channeling Jesus? Or quoting an old book
anglagard writes:

Summer solstice, June 21 or more accurately the day or two after. I will throw everything Jesus ever purportedly said that you hate above all things, right into both your faces.

That is not just a promise, not just a guarantee, for you, it will be a reckoning.

Many people have spoken into my life. Some were from the church and some weren't, but what mattered was the Spirit behind what they said to me. If you simply come at me as a liberal who thinks that an ancient character in an old book speaks the ringing truths of empathetic socialism, I will be unimpressed. If, however, you speak as if that man is living in your heart, you know I will pay attention whether I want to or not. I reckon I need a good reckoning now and then.

The Great Debate between Raphael and Phat appears to be between a 7th and a wannabe 7th.
What makes you think I want to join the 7th-day Adventists? Were i speaking with a Catholic do you imagine me thus wanting to convert to that? Im simply attempting a conversation that will highlight our similarities in belief and our differences...with due respect to Raphael regardless what he believes.

Edited by Phat, : No reason given.


"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
- Criss Jami, Killo

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 168 by anglagard, posted 06-02-2021 12:14 AM anglagard has not yet responded

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 16857
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 4.0


Message 172 of 176 (886866)
06-13-2021 11:47 AM
Reply to: Message 170 by Phat
06-13-2021 11:24 AM


Re: Better Sources? We Have Rhema
quote:
In my belief, the Bible is best represented at conveying what GOD (The One above all others...Jesus Father...the Creator of all seen and unseen) means for us to know rather than us taking the book as a human creation and simply breaking down what humans of a particular period believed.

That would mean accepting the importance of the message. Which you refuse to do. Even worse you can’t hope to understand the Bible by ripping the various books out of their historical context. If they were messages from God they were messages to the people of the time they were written.

But worse for you, the Bible presents itself as a collection of human creations. And surely the cosmology of Genesis 1 reflects what the people of the time believed, not the actual cosmos. The sky is not a solid dome, there is no water above it, the stars are distant suns - many larger and grander than ours.

quote:
If GOD does not speak through this book, it is as mundane and transitory as any philosophical book from any religion at any time in history. It no longer speaks as authoritative.

And in your view it isn’t authoritative. You don’t accept that the serpent told the truth even though the story clearly says so.

quote:
Not at al. My point is that Jesus (Being eternally alive) speaks to us today....we don't simply follow the words of humans who lived two thousand years ago. We may as well write our own book if that were the case. The key belief supporting this position is Rhema Word. If Logos...The written word from 2000 years ago...is the only record of what Jesus said, and if Jesus is believed to be just another human who lived and died...the 2000-year-old words are little more than philosophy and good human advice.

There are two quite distinct issues here and one - the nature of Jesus - is not really part of this discussion. So, let us assume for the sake of argument that Jesus was God and that the Bible accurately reports his words. In that case using your Rhema theology to set aside his words as recorded in the Gospels is a questionable proposition. If the words you attribute to Jesus are in conflict with his message in the Bible and convenient to you (as is the case) there is a clear possibility that they come from you and not from Jesus at all.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 170 by Phat, posted 06-13-2021 11:24 AM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 173 by Phat, posted 06-13-2021 11:50 AM PaulK has not yet responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 15361
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 173 of 176 (886867)
06-13-2021 11:50 AM
Reply to: Message 172 by PaulK
06-13-2021 11:47 AM


Re: Better Sources? We Have Rhema
You do have a good argument. I'll have to think about what you say.

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
- Criss Jami, Killo

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 172 by PaulK, posted 06-13-2021 11:47 AM PaulK has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 174 by Tangle, posted 06-13-2021 12:52 PM Phat has responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 8149
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 3.7


(1)
Message 174 of 176 (886868)
06-13-2021 12:52 PM
Reply to: Message 173 by Phat
06-13-2021 11:50 AM


Re: Better Sources? We Have Rhema
Phat writes:

You do have a good argument. I'll have to think about what you say.

It's almost like it's the first time you've heard it.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 173 by Phat, posted 06-13-2021 11:50 AM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 175 by Phat, posted 06-13-2021 2:32 PM Tangle has not yet responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 15361
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 175 of 176 (886871)
06-13-2021 2:32 PM
Reply to: Message 174 by Tangle
06-13-2021 12:52 PM


Re: Better Sources? We Have Rhema
I've heard your appeals to logic and rejection of myth and fantasy many times. It's just that I don't agree with it. I've seen things that I doubt you have seen. Not that I can objectively prove them. And that's the key you use...thus you are limited to exclude inner feeling and confirmation.

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
- Criss Jami, Killo

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 174 by Tangle, posted 06-13-2021 12:52 PM Tangle has not yet responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 19061
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 3.1


Message 176 of 176 (886883)
06-13-2021 3:38 PM


Phat writes:

Ringo takes it a step further. He basically believes that the message is more important than the messenger....


And you know that's true. You don't throw your bills away and worship the envelopes.

"I've been to Moose Jaw, now I can die." -- John Wing

  
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