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Author | Topic: Peanut Gallery Comments on Great Debate | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Tangle Member Posts: 9583 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 6.5 |
And here we have a repeat of the tired old misunderstanding of what atheism/secularism/humanism is - a variant of the old atheism as a belief routine.
“I think when it comes to ethics, the secularist is often (not always) a theist in disguise. Many who I speak to (and love as friends) care deeply about the modern human sex trafficking epidemic, or female circumcision, or LGBT+ rights, but at the core of secularism there is no real reason to. We might be able to observe some things as in general, negative or positive for the human race, but to claim that we ought to take action to rectify injustice in the world requires for things to be objectively unjust.” He's saying that because we care about others there must be a god. What utter nonsense. It's a total non sequitur. We care about others because we know that pain and suffering hurts; we have an emotion called empathy and a conscious mind that feels some of that suffering ourselves. So of course we dislike it and feel like want to do something about it.Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed. |
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ringo Member (Idle past 670 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
The record shows that you have an exaggerated high regard for "pastors" - certainly not justified in the case of ICANT. ... let the record show that I am in no way obsequious nor worshipful towards Raphael and consider him a brother in Christ and nothing more. Tangle has some rather odd view of me based on my conversations with Pastor ICANT...."I've been to Moose Jaw, now I can die." -- John Wing |
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anglagard Member (Idle past 1095 days) Posts: 2339 From: Socorro, New Mexico USA Joined: |
The Great Debate between Raphael and Phat appears to be between a 7th and a wannabe 7th. Now if Phat wants to be a 7th, well better than Pentecost, he may not be Christian but he sure will make a great orthodox Jew (but you will still have to learn way more than any "pastor" could begin to conceive of.)
All these calisthenics to avoid what Jesus said in the Gospels, since neither of you will apparently do it on your own, becomes the purview of the scholar. Summer solstice, June 21 or more accurately the day or two after. I will throw everything Jesus ever purportedly said that you hate above all things, right into both you faces. That is not just a promise, not just a guarantee, for you it will be a reckoning.The problem with knowing everything is learning nothing. If you don't know what you're doing, find someone who does, and do what they do. Republican = death
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PaulK Member Posts: 17919 Joined: Member Rating: 6.6 |
Addressing Message 10
quote: As the story is written the snake told the truth. That cannot be honestly disputed (it can be dishonestly disputed - as you’ve demonstrated). Whether or not God lied (rather than - for instance - changed his mind) relies more on interpretation and ideas about the nature, history and purpose of the story. But I think it’s telling that you are far more comfortable with misrepresenting the Bible to make it fit with your beliefs than you are with accepting that it says something you don’t like.
quote: That can be read as saying that Jesus Christ is incapable of carrying a message worth hearing - and that does seem to sum up your actual position. The roots of the disagreement are your insistence that the message is not important. It looks to me like an excuse for idolatry - it’s important to believe that God wrote the Bible because the men you worship say so - it’s not important to believe that Bible because that’s only what God says (far less important).
quote: Which would be the way that you get Jesus’ message. You’re not going to find what Jesus said anywhere else. (Personally I doubt that you can get a reliable idea of what Jesus actually said even then - but Christians disagree, and it’s not as if you have any better sources).
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Phat Member Posts: 18651 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 4.2 |
PaulK writes: In my belief, the Bible is best represented at conveying what GOD (The One above all others...Jesus Father...the Creator of all seen and unseen) means for us to know rather than us taking the book as a human creation and simply breaking down what humans of a particular period believed. If GOD does not speak through this book, it is as mundane and transitory as any philosophical book from any religion at any time in history. It no longer speaks as authoritative. ringo can claim that the message has value, though it is but humanistic, evolving, subjective value in that case. At the risk of misrepresenting the Bible, we only seek to represent what GOD (later through Jesus) said to humanity. Take that belief away and we would drop the book like it was a chick tract. I think it’s telling that you are far more comfortable with misrepresenting the Bible to make it fit with your beliefs than you are with accepting that it says something you don’t likeThat can be read as saying that Jesus Christ is incapable of carrying a message worth hearing - and that does seem to sum up your actual position. The roots of the disagreement are your insistence that the message is not important. Not at al. My point is that Jesus (Being eternally alive) speaks to us today....we don't simply follow the words of humans who lived two thousand years ago. We may as well write our own book if that were the case. The key belief supporting this position is Rhema Word. If Logos...The written word from 2000 years ago...is the only record of what Jesus said, and if Jesus is believed to be just another human who lived and died...the 2000-year-old words are little more than philosophy and good human advice."A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** “…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox “The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.” “The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
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Phat Member Posts: 18651 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 4.2 |
anglagard writes: Many people have spoken into my life. Some were from the church and some weren't, but what mattered was the Spirit behind what they said to me. If you simply come at me as a liberal who thinks that an ancient character in an old book speaks the ringing truths of empathetic socialism, I will be unimpressed. If, however, you speak as if that man is living in your heart, you know I will pay attention whether I want to or not. I reckon I need a good reckoning now and then.
Summer solstice, June 21 or more accurately the day or two after. I will throw everything Jesus ever purportedly said that you hate above all things, right into both your faces. That is not just a promise, not just a guarantee, for you, it will be a reckoning. The Great Debate between Raphael and Phat appears to be between a 7th and a wannabe 7th. What makes you think I want to join the 7th-day Adventists? Were i speaking with a Catholic do you imagine me thus wanting to convert to that? Im simply attempting a conversation that will highlight our similarities in belief and our differences...with due respect to Raphael regardless what he believes. Edited by Phat, : No reason given."A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** “…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox “The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.” “The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
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PaulK Member Posts: 17919 Joined: Member Rating: 6.6 |
quote: That would mean accepting the importance of the message. Which you refuse to do. Even worse you can’t hope to understand the Bible by ripping the various books out of their historical context. If they were messages from God they were messages to the people of the time they were written. But worse for you, the Bible presents itself as a collection of human creations. And surely the cosmology of Genesis 1 reflects what the people of the time believed, not the actual cosmos. The sky is not a solid dome, there is no water above it, the stars are distant suns - many larger and grander than ours.
quote: And in your view it isn’t authoritative. You don’t accept that the serpent told the truth even though the story clearly says so.
quote: There are two quite distinct issues here and one - the nature of Jesus - is not really part of this discussion. So, let us assume for the sake of argument that Jesus was God and that the Bible accurately reports his words. In that case using your Rhema theology to set aside his words as recorded in the Gospels is a questionable proposition. If the words you attribute to Jesus are in conflict with his message in the Bible and convenient to you (as is the case) there is a clear possibility that they come from you and not from Jesus at all.
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Phat Member Posts: 18651 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 4.2 |
You do have a good argument. I'll have to think about what you say.
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** “…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox “The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.” “The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
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Tangle Member Posts: 9583 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 6.5
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Phat writes: You do have a good argument. I'll have to think about what you say. It's almost like it's the first time you've heard it.Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
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Phat Member Posts: 18651 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 4.2 |
I've heard your appeals to logic and rejection of myth and fantasy many times. It's just that I don't agree with it. I've seen things that I doubt you have seen. Not that I can objectively prove them. And that's the key you use...thus you are limited to exclude inner feeling and confirmation.
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** “…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox “The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.” “The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
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ringo Member (Idle past 670 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
And you know that's true. You don't throw your bills away and worship the envelopes. Ringo takes it a step further. He basically believes that the message is more important than the messenger...."I've been to Moose Jaw, now I can die." -- John Wing
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Phat Member Posts: 18651 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 4.2 |
And you know that's true. No, I don't *know* that at all. God has used you to stir up my inner conscience, however. I recently saw a good article supporting your views even as I was trying to google concepts supporting mine.
The message is more important than the messenger You don't throw your bills away and worship the envelopes. I don't worship the bills either. Your analogy is struggling."A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** “…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox “The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.” “The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
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dwise1 Member Posts: 6077 Joined: Member Rating: 7.1
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ringo writes:
I don't worship the bills either. Your analogy is struggling. You don't throw your bills away and worship the envelopes. You misread that metaphor and took it personally when it wasn't. Such is the ambiguity of English. Rather, that should have read in the French style: "One does not throw one's bills away and worship the envelopes." Language note: French makes extensive use of the impersonal pronoun "on", which corresponds to the English use of "one" that I just deployed, even when we would not expect it (eg, when describing the actions of a particular group where we would use "they", French still uses "on") -- that makes watching French content on Netflix more fun, catching where they use "on". So ringo was not describing what you personally would do, but rather what one should do. So in determining what is true, which should we do? Examine the "message" and test it in order to determine whether it is true? Or automatically accept everything that a particular authority says? Here's an example. There was a creation/evolution documentary which was fairly balanced and consisted entirely of interviews with individuals on both sides (eg, scientists and professors and ministers and professional creationists -- thankfully very few of that last group) with a bare minimum of commentary (none, according to my memory) and no conclusions expressed explicitly. Going back to my notes, that documentary was "Questioning Darwin" on HBO (2014 -- on YouTube at https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0dfSIHYwOWM). I've posted about it on this forum before, but I don't remember when. From my notes:
DWise1 writes: unremembered creationist writes:
On HBO I watched a documentary, "Questioning Darwin". As I recall, there was no narrator, but rather it consisted of several people talking about creation/evolution. Only a few of the people featured were pro-evolution; the majority were young-earth creationists and leaders in fundamentalist ministries. The main difference between genuine Christian believers and the world in general is that they consider the Bible as the word of God, an authority above man made theories and conclusions. . . . The first evidence that the true believer has is the word of God and everything else has to be tested by it. The world on the other hand puts the opinions and conclusions of man above revelation and God. So there is no harmony there. It does not mean that science cannot be married to creationism, it just means that the conclusions drawn which contradict the Bible have to be left out. If I were to talk about global flood dynamics, the Bible would be my first and only reference, which has authority over and above the world. It does not matter if other thoughts and conclusions disagree with it. In one clip, a creationist proclaimed proudly about the strength of his faith being such that if he were to find in the Bible that 2+2 is five, then that is how it is and nothing could possibly shake his belief in 2+2=5 and he would actively oppose the atheist teaching of 2+2=4. OK, I did embellish that last part a bit, but it is absolutely true that he stated that if he were to find in the Bible that 2+2=5, then that is how it is and that is what he would believe absolutely regardless of any amount of non-biblical evidence that it really is 2+2=4. That is the same position that you are arguing for, that the Bible must take precedence over reality. That may whisper "faithful" in your ear, but it shouts "delusional!" to normal people. And it is a blasphemy to the Creator, since you are placing the Word of Man over the Word of God. [NOTE, DWise1, 2021 Jun 15: To explain that last sentence, if all of Nature and physical reality was actually created by God, then that is God's Word. The Bible was written by Man and hence is the Word of Man. To quote from a filk song, "Man wrote the Bible, God wrote the World." ] You can prove that 2 + 2 = 4 and you can trust any source on that question that tells you that true statement, regardless of religion, ideology, or lack thereof. Or your religion could teach you that 2 + 2 = 5 and the only reason you would ever believe and trust that would be because it is your religion that tells you that. So we see that what's true is true and what's false is false regardless of the source. Sources which we might never be inclined to trust can provide us with the truth and sources that we trust completely can feed us falsehoods. "2 + 2 = 4" is the message and its sources are the messengers. A particular messenger can deliver a false message (eg, your religion when it teaches "2 + 2 = 5") and that false message will still be false regardless of how much you trust that messenger. And an untrusted messenger can (and often does) deliver a true message which will continue to be true regardless of how much you distrust that messenger. Therefore, the message is truly more important than the messenger. So then tell us, how much is two plus two? Now let's take another tack. In one lecture, my Rabbinic Literature professor, Rabbi Kalir, explained the difference between two methods of teaching: 1) khalakhah (academic analysis of a teaching -- I'm sure that I got the name wrong after half a century) and 2) aggadah (teaching through the telling of illustrative stories). In that lecture, Rabbi Kalir compared aggadah with telling a joke: any given joke has hundreds of different variations, but despite often widely different build-ups, the punch line is always the same. Similarly, in teaching a given lesson there are a vast number of different stories you can chose from or even concoct your own, but the actual lesson, like the punch line, will always be the same. So, which is more important? The story or the lesson? Following ringo's metaphor, the story is the messenger but the lesson is the message. Pick just about any Bible story and it should follow that same aggadah pattern. Each story has lessons that it tries to teach. So which is more important? The story itself (ie, the messenger) or the lesson (ie, the message)? Now to my mind, that is where biblical literalists go seriously wrong. They are so hung up on all the stories themselves (ie, the messengers) being literally true or else the entire Bible is false and God does not exist. They are worshipping the messenger and losing the message. Edited by dwise1, : the impersonal pronoun "on"
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LamarkNewAge Member Posts: 2497 Joined: |
When a comment like that is casually thrown out, I think we know we are going to see a lack of integrity with scripture in the discussion. This gripe, of my own, is not to complain about the discussion, but it is just to make sure that we see that the context is squarely within the notions of a modern (or "post modern") 21st century church-goer perspective.
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ringo Member (Idle past 670 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
Do you throw your bills away and keep the envelopes?
ringo writes:
No, I don't *know* that at all. And you know that's true. Phat writes:
Funny how that works, ain't it?
I recently saw a good article supporting your views even as I was trying to google concepts supporting mine. Phat writes:
But you consider them more important than the envelopes.
I don't worship the bills either. Phat writes:
I don't think there's any problem with the analogy. You're struggling to avoid it. You throw away Jesus' message and worship him as the Envelope that broght it. Your analogy is struggling."I've been to Moose Jaw, now I can die." -- John Wing
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