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Author Topic:   Peanut Gallery Comments on Great Debate
Phat
Member
Posts: 15467
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 181 of 208 (886901)
06-17-2021 7:25 AM
Reply to: Message 180 by ringo
06-16-2021 12:22 PM


Re: ringo needs John, Paul, and George.
ringo writes:

You're struggling to avoid it. You throw away Jesus' message and worship him as the Envelope that brought it.

The only argument we have had is interpretation. Jesus told the rich young ruler that he (specifically) lacked one thing. Which was letting go of his provisions. Jesus never mandated that all Christians or all followers need give up everything. If so, Mary and Martha never would have even had a house., Every follower (or believer) would be in effect homeless and wandering after the One who had no place to lay His head. Now...to be fair, we all are called to give up everything in the sense that we are no longer in charge of our lives. Jesus may tell ringo to up the spare change and sell the house, but I doubt He would leave ringo homeless....that would serve no purpose. Ringo, however...being a good little liberal would likely feel more comfortable with the suffering masses than he would living alone up on the hill with Mr. Potter. As for me, I try and listen to what Jesus tells me specifically to do. I don't always succeed. This is why I went into a rant over the whole concept of reparations in the other topic.

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
- Criss Jami, Killo

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 180 by ringo, posted 06-16-2021 12:22 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 182 by Tangle, posted 06-17-2021 9:45 AM Phat has responded
 Message 185 by ringo, posted 06-17-2021 12:37 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 8175
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 3.8


Message 182 of 208 (886903)
06-17-2021 9:45 AM
Reply to: Message 181 by Phat
06-17-2021 7:25 AM


Re: ringo needs John, Paul, and George.
quote:
Jesus never mandated that all Christians or all followers need give up everything.

He barely mentions it...

Matthew 19:21 ESV /

Jesus said to him, “If you would be perfect, go, sell what you possess and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow me.”

Luke 14:33 ESV /
So therefore, any one of you who does not renounce all that he has cannot be my disciple.

Luke 9:23 ESV /
And he said to all, “If anyone would come after me, let him deny himself and take up his cross daily and follow me.

Mark 10:21 ESV /

And Jesus, looking at him, loved him, and said to him, “You lack one thing: go, sell all that you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow me.”

Luke 18:22 ESV /

When Jesus heard this, he said to him, “One thing you still lack. Sell all that you have and distribute to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow me.”

Mark 8:34 ESV /

And calling the crowd to him with his disciples, he said to them, “If anyone would come after me, let him deny himself and take up his cross and follow me.

Matthew 16:24 ESV /

Then Jesus told his disciples, “If anyone would come after me, let him deny himself and take up his cross and follow me.

Matthew 6:33 ESV /

But seek first the kingdom of God and his righteousness, and all these things will be added to you.

Luke 12:33 ESV /

Sell your possessions, and give to the needy. Provide yourselves with moneybags that do not grow old, with a treasure in the heavens that does not fail, where no thief approaches and no moth destroys.

Luke 18:18-30 ESV /

And a ruler asked him, “Good Teacher, what must I do to inherit eternal life?” And Jesus said to him, “Why do you call me good? No one is good except God alone. You know the commandments: ‘Do not commit adultery, Do not murder, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Honor your father and mother.’” And he said, “All these I have kept from my youth.” When Jesus heard this, he said to him, “One thing you still lack. Sell all that you have and distribute to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow me.” ...

Mark 10:17-31 ESV / 445 helpful votes

And as he was setting out on his journey, a man ran up and knelt before him and asked him, “Good Teacher, what must I do to inherit eternal life?” And Jesus said to him, “Why do you call me good? No one is good except God alone. You know the commandments: ‘Do not murder, Do not commit adultery, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Do not defraud, Honor your father and mother.’” And he said to him, “Teacher, all these I have kept from my youth.” And Jesus, looking at him, loved him, and said to him, “You lack one thing: go, sell all that you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow me.” ...

1 Corinthians 11:1 ESV / 419 helpful votes

Be imitators of me, as I am of Christ.

Matthew 6:20 ESV / 418 helpful votes

But lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust destroys and where thieves do not break in and steal.

Luke 16:9 ESV / 410 helpful votes

And I tell you, make friends for yourselves by means of unrighteous wealth, so that when it fails they may receive you into the eternal dwellings.

Luke 9:57-62 ESV / 406 helpful votes

As they were going along the road, someone said to him, “I will follow you wherever you go.” And Jesus said to him, “Foxes have holes, and birds of the air have nests, but the Son of Man has nowhere to lay his head.” To another he said, “Follow me.” But he said, “Lord, let me first go and bury my father.” And Jesus said to him, “Leave the dead to bury their own dead. But as for you, go and proclaim the kingdom of God.” Yet another said, “I will follow you, Lord, but let me first say farewell to those at my home.” ...

Matthew 6:24 ESV / 387 helpful votes

“No one can serve two masters, for either he will hate the one and love the other, or he will be devoted to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve God and money.

“Do not lay up for yourselves treasures on earth, where moth and rust destroy and where thieves break in and steal,

Matthew 6:19-20 ESV / 366 helpful votes

“Do not lay up for yourselves treasures on earth, where moth and rust destroy and where thieves break in and steal, but lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust destroys and where thieves do not break in and steal.

Matthew 7:21-23 ESV / 358 helpful votes

“Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’ And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.’

Luke 14:25-35 ESV / 351 helpful votes

Now great crowds accompanied him, and he turned and said to them, “If anyone comes to me and does not hate his own father and mother and wife and children and brothers and sisters, yes, and even his own life, he cannot be my disciple. Whoever does not bear his own cross and come after me cannot be my disciple. For which of you, desiring to build a tower, does not first sit down and count the cost, whether he has enough to complete it? Otherwise, when he has laid a foundation and is not able to finish, all who see it begin to mock him, ...

Luke 6:38 ESV / 351 helpful votes

Give, and it will be given to you. Good measure, pressed down, shaken together, running over, will be put into your lap. For with the measure you use it will be measured back to you.”

Acts 2:44-45 ESV / 326 helpful votes

And all who believed were together and had all things in common. And they were selling their possessions and belongings and distributing the proceeds to all, as any had need.

Proverbs 21:26 ESV / 313 helpful votes

All day long he craves and craves, but the righteous gives and does not hold back.

Luke 5:11 ESV / 305 helpful votes

And when they had brought their boats to land, they left everything and followed him.

2 Corinthians 9:10 ESV / 299 helpful votes

He who supplies seed to the sower and bread for food will supply and multiply your seed for sowing and increase the harvest of your righteousness.

Acts 20:35 ESV / 297 helpful votes

In all things I have shown you that by working hard in this way we must help the weak and remember the words of the Lord Jesus, how he himself said, ‘It is more blessed to give than to receive.’”

Mark 10:22 ESV / 294 helpful votes

Disheartened by the saying, he went away sorrowful, for he had great possessions.

Proverbs 3:27 ESV / 286 helpful votes

Do not withhold good from those to whom it is due, when it is in your power to do it.

Colossians 3:17 ESV / 281 helpful votes

And whatever you do, in word or deed, do everything in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God the Father through him.

Matthew 10:38 ESV / 279 helpful votes

And whoever does not take his cross and follow me is not worthy of me.

Mark 2:14 ESV / 277 helpful votes

And as he passed by, he saw Levi the son of Alphaeus sitting at the tax booth, and he said to him, “Follow me.” And he rose and followed him.

Luke 6:30 ESV / 276 helpful votes

Give to everyone who begs from you, and from one who takes away your goods do not demand them back.

John 12:26 ESV / 270 helpful votes

If anyone serves me, he must follow me; and where I am, there will my servant be also. If anyone serves me, the Father will honor him.

Proverbs 11:25 ESV / 269 helpful votes

Whoever brings blessing will be enriched, and one who waters will himself be watered.

Galatians 5:25 ESV / 268 helpful votes

If we live by the Spirit, let us also walk by the Spirit.

2 Corinthians 9:7 ESV / 268 helpful votes

Each one must give as he has decided in his heart, not reluctantly or under compulsion, for God loves a cheerful giver.

Hebrews 13:5 ESV / 266 helpful votes

Keep your life free from love of money, and be content with what you have, for he has said, “I will never leave you nor forsake you.”

Matthew 6:3-4 ESV / 261 helpful votes

But when you give to the needy, do not let your left hand know what your right hand is doing, so that your giving may be in secret. And your Father who sees in secret will reward you.

2 Corinthians 9:11 ESV / 258 helpful votes

You will be enriched in every way to be generous in every way, which through us will produce thanksgiving to God.

Exodus 20:3 ESV / 257 helpful votes

“You shall have no other gods before me.

3 John 1:1-15 ESV / 253 helpful votes

The elder to the beloved Gaius, whom I love in truth. Beloved, I pray that all may go well with you and that you may be in good health, as it goes well with your soul. For I rejoiced greatly when the brothers came and testified to your truth, as indeed you are walking in the truth. I have no greater joy than to hear that my children are walking in the truth. Beloved, it is a faithful thing you do in all your efforts for these brothers, strangers as they are, ...

2 Thessalonians 1:1-12 ESV / 253 helpful votes

Paul, Silvanus, and Timothy, To the church of the Thessalonians in God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ: Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ. We ought always to give thanks to God for you, brothers, as is right, because your faith is growing abundantly, and the love of every one of you for one another is increasing. Therefore we ourselves boast about you in the churches of God for your steadfastness and faith in all your persecutions and in the afflictions that you are enduring. This is evidence of the righteous judgment of God, that you may be considered worthy of the kingdom of God, for which you are also suffering— ...

2 Corinthians 7:1-16 ESV / 253 helpful votes

Since we have these promises, beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from every defilement of body and spirit, bringing holiness to completion in the fear of God. Make room in your hearts for us. We have wronged no one, we have corrupted no one, we have taken advantage of no one. I do not say this to condemn you, for I said before that you are in our hearts, to die together and to live together. I am acting with great boldness toward you; I have great pride in you; I am filled with comfort. In all our affliction, I am overflowing with joy. For even when we came into Macedonia, our bodies had no rest, but we were afflicted at every turn—fighting without and fear within. ...

Mark 8:34-37 ESV / 253 helpful votes

And calling the crowd to him with his disciples, he said to them, “If anyone would come after me, let him deny himself and take up his cross and follow me. For whoever would save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for my sake and the gospel's will save it. For what does it profit a man to gain the whole world and forfeit his soul? For what can a man give in return for his soul?

Jude 1:1-25 ESV / 252 helpful votes

Jude, a servant of Jesus Christ and brother of James, To those who are called, beloved in God the Father and kept for Jesus Christ: May mercy, peace, and love be multiplied to you. Beloved, although I was very eager to write to you about our common salvation, I found it necessary to write appealing to you to contend for the faith that was once for all delivered to the saints. For certain people have crept in unnoticed who long ago were designated for this condemnation, ungodly people, who pervert the grace of our God into sensuality and deny our only Master and Lord, Jesus Christ. Now I want to remind you, although you once fully knew it, that Jesus, who saved a people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed those who did not believe. ...

Romans 5:1-8:39 ESV / 252 helpful votes

Therefore, since we have been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ. Through him we have also obtained access by faith into this grace in which we stand, and we rejoice in hope of the glory of God. More than that, we rejoice in our sufferings, knowing that suffering produces endurance, and endurance produces character, and character produces hope, and hope does not put us to shame, because God's love has been poured into our hearts through the Holy Spirit who has been given to us. ...

Luke 1:37 ESV / 251 helpful votes

For nothing will be impossible with God.”

Proverbs 22:9 ESV / 250 helpful votes

Whoever has a bountiful eye will be blessed, for he shares his bread with the poor.

Hebrews 13:16 ESV / 248 helpful votes

Do not neglect to do good and to share what you have, for such sacrifices are pleasing to God.

Psalm 46:10 ESV / 247 helpful votes

“Be still, and know that I am God. I will be exalted among the nations, I will be exalted in the earth!”

Luke 18:23 ESV / 244 helpful votes

But when he heard these things, he became very sad, for he was extremely rich.

Mark 10:27 ESV / 236 helpful votes

Jesus looked at them and said, “With man it is impossible, but not with God. For all things are possible with God.”

Matthew 10:37 ESV / 234 helpful votes

Whoever loves father or mother more than me is not worthy of me, and whoever loves son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me.

John 16:33 ESV / 232 helpful votes

I have said these things to you, that in me you may have peace. In the world you will have tribulation. But take heart; I have overcome the world.”

2 Peter 3:8-9 ESV / 231 helpful votes

But do not overlook this one fact, beloved, that with the Lord one day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. The Lord is not slow to fulfill his promise as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance.

Galatians 6:9 ESV / 231 helpful votes

And let us not grow weary of doing good, for in due season we will reap, if we do not give up.

Proverbs 11:24-25 ESV / 230 helpful votes

One gives freely, yet grows all the richer; another withholds what he should give, and only suffers want. Whoever brings blessing will be enriched, and one who waters will himself be watered.

1 Timothy 6:17 ESV / 224 helpful votes

As for the rich in this present age, charge them not to be haughty, nor to set their hopes on the uncertainty of riches, but on God, who richly provides us with everything to enjoy.

Proverbs 28:27 ESV / 224 helpful votes

Whoever gives to the poor will not want, but he who hides his eyes will get many a curse.

2 Corinthians 9:6-8 ESV / 217 helpful votes

The point is this: whoever sows sparingly will also reap sparingly, and whoever sows bountifully will also reap bountifully. Each one must give as he has decided in his heart, not reluctantly or under compulsion, for God loves a cheerful giver. And God is able to make all grace abound to you, so that having all sufficiency in all things at all times, you may abound in every good work.

Deuteronomy 15:10 ESV / 214 helpful votes

You shall give to him freely, and your heart shall not be grudging when you give to him, because for this the Lord your God will bless you in all your work and in all that you undertake.

Mark 12:41-44 ESV / 212 helpful votes

And he sat down opposite the treasury and watched the people putting money into the offering box. Many rich people put in large sums. And a poor widow came and put in two small copper coins, which make a penny. And he called his disciples to him and said to them, “Truly, I say to you, this poor widow has put in more than all those who are contributing to the offering box. For they all contributed out of their abundance, but she out of her poverty has put in everything she had, all she had to live on.”

Revelation 1:1-20 ESV / 208 helpful votes

The revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show to his servants the things that must soon take place. He made it known by sending his angel to his servant John, who bore witness to the word of God and to the testimony of Jesus Christ, even to all that he saw. Blessed is the one who reads aloud the words of this prophecy, and blessed are those who hear, and who keep what is written in it, for the time is near. John to the seven churches that are in Asia: Grace to you and peace from him who is and who was and who is to come, and from the seven spirits who are before his throne, and from Jesus Christ the faithful witness, the firstborn of the dead, and the ruler of kings on earth. To him who loves us and has freed us from our sins by his blood ...

Matthew 19:26 ESV / 208 helpful votes

But Jesus looked at them and said, “With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible.”

1 Chronicles 29:14 ESV / 205 helpful votes

“But who am I, and what is my people, that we should be able thus to offer willingly? For all things come from you, and of your own have we given you.

Luke 5:1-39 ESV / 200 helpful votes

On one occasion, while the crowd was pressing in on him to hear the word of God, he was standing by the lake of Gennesaret, and he saw two boats by the lake, but the fishermen had gone out of them and were washing their nets. Getting into one of the boats, which was Simon's, he asked him to put out a little from the land. And he sat down and taught the people from the boat. And when he had finished speaking, he said to Simon, “Put out into the deep and let down your nets for a catch.” And Simon answered, “Master, we toiled all night and took nothing! But at your word I will let down the nets.” ...

James 2:15-16 ESV / 198 helpful votes

If a brother or sister is poorly clothed and lacking in daily food, and one of you says to them, “Go in peace, be warmed and filled,” without giving them the things needed for the body, what good is that?

Luke 18:28-30 ESV / 197 helpful votes

And Peter said, “See, we have left our homes and followed you.” And he said to them, “Truly, I say to you, there is no one who has left house or wife or brothers or parents or children, for the sake of the kingdom of God, who will not receive many times more in this time, and in the age to come eternal life.”

Deuteronomy 16:17 ESV / 189 helpful votes

Every man shall give as he is able, according to the blessing of the Lord your God that he has given you.

Luke 10:25-37 ESV / 183 helpful votes

And behold, a lawyer stood up to put him to the test, saying, “Teacher, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?” He said to him, “What is written in the Law? How do you read it?” And he answered, “You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind, and your neighbor as yourself.” And he said to him, “You have answered correctly; do this, and you will live.” But he, desiring to justify himself, said to Jesus, “And who is my neighbor?” ...

2 Timothy 1:7 ESV / 182 helpful votes

For God gave us a spirit not of fear but of power and love and self-control.

Romans 12:8 ESV / 182 helpful votes

The one who exhorts, in his exhortation; the one who contributes, in generosity; the one who leads, with zeal; the one who does acts of mercy, with cheerfulness.

2 Corinthians 8:12 ESV / 179 helpful votes

For if the readiness is there, it is acceptable according to what a person has, not according to what he does not have.

Luke 3:11 ESV / 177 helpful votes

And he answered them, “Whoever has two tunics is to share with him who has none, and whoever has food is to do likewise.”


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 181 by Phat, posted 06-17-2021 7:25 AM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 183 by Phat, posted 06-17-2021 11:34 AM Tangle has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 15467
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 183 of 208 (886905)
06-17-2021 11:34 AM
Reply to: Message 182 by Tangle
06-17-2021 9:45 AM


Re: ringo needs John, Paul, and George.
You did your homework quite well. Disciples were required to give up everything. All were encouraged to do so. But again I ask, why did Mary and Martha even have a house?

Answer: They were not following Jesus as were the Disciples and as the Rich Young Ruler sought to do.

And when I ask ringo why he has not given up all he has I am met with the derisive comment that he is not a believer. Hypocrite.

Non-believers cannot hold believers to a standard.

It is between us and Jesus. I will admit, however, that based on scripture I have a weak case.


"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
- Criss Jami, Killo

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 182 by Tangle, posted 06-17-2021 9:45 AM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 184 by Tangle, posted 06-17-2021 12:35 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply
 Message 186 by ringo, posted 06-17-2021 12:43 PM Phat has responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 8175
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 3.8


Message 184 of 208 (886906)
06-17-2021 12:35 PM
Reply to: Message 183 by Phat
06-17-2021 11:34 AM


Re: ringo needs John, Paul, and George.
Phat writes:

You did your homework quite well.

5 minutes of my life.

Disciples were required to give up everything.

Nice try, but you need a better lawyer. He said it to anyone that would listen and a lot that wouldn't. If you want eternal life, sell all you have...

Luke 18:18-30 ESV /

And a ruler asked him, “Good Teacher, what must I do to inherit eternal life?” And Jesus said to him, “Why do you call me good? No one is good except God alone. You know the commandments: ‘Do not commit adultery, Do not murder, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Honor your father and mother.’” And he said, “All these I have kept from my youth.” When Jesus heard this, he said to him, “One thing you still lack. Sell all that you have and distribute to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow me.” ...

etc

All were encouraged to do so.

Yup

But again I ask, why did Mary and Martha even have a house?
Answer: They were not following Jesus as were the Disciples and as the Rich Young Ruler sought to do.

I'm sure you can find wiggle room that convinces you; I'm just pointing to what you have to ignore in order to do so.

And when I ask ringo why he has not given up all he has I am met with the derisive comment that he is not a believer. Hypocrite.

Uh? I haven't given everything up either it would be a stupidly dumb thing to do. That's not hypocrisy, all we're doing is showing you that your book makes it necessary if you want this everlasting life nonsense that YOU say YOU believe in.

Non-believers cannot hold believers to a standard.

We absolutely can! If you say you believe in the book and Jesus, yet don't do what the book says Jesus requires of you, we are perfectly entitled to shout "foul".

It is between us and Jesus. I will admit, however, that based on scripture I have a weak case.

You have no case, it's his own words, sorry.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 183 by Phat, posted 06-17-2021 11:34 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 19140
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.5


Message 185 of 208 (886907)
06-17-2021 12:37 PM
Reply to: Message 181 by Phat
06-17-2021 7:25 AM


Re: ringo needs John, Paul, and George.
Phat writes:

Jesus never mandated that all Christians or all followers need give up everything.


Why would different people have different standards for salvation? If one person MUST give up all of his possessions to be saved, how can anybody else do less?

Phat writes:

Every follower (or believer) would be in effect homeless and wandering after the One who had no place to lay His head.


Pay attention: The early church - e.g. Ananias and Sapphira - SHARED what they had. Instead of looking for loopholes like Mary and Martha, why don't you think about the ones who were KILLED for holding back?

Phat writes:

... we all are called to give up everything in the sense that we are no longer in charge of our lives.


That isn't at all what Jesus said. He said to "sell what you have and give to the poor". He didn't say we have to give up control of our lives to be saved.

Phat writes:

Jesus may tell ringo to up the spare change and sell the house...


FYI, the house is already gone.

Phat writes:

... but I doubt He would leave ringo homeless...


You're still not paying attention. It's about sharing what you have.

Phat writes:

...that would serve no purpose.


Sharing what you have certainly does have a purpose - it helps the ones who have less.

Phat writes:

Ringo, however...being a good little liberal...


You really should stop denigrating "liberals" and BECOME one, like Jesus.

Phat writes:

...would likely feel more comfortable with the suffering masses than he would living alone up on the hill with Mr. Potter.


Of course I would.

Phat writes:

As for me, I try and listen to what Jesus tells me specifically to do.


You have made up a "Jesus" who never tells you to do anything hard. I ask again, why do you even call your imaginary friend "Jesus" when he doesn't even resemble Jesus?

Phat writes:

This is why I went into a rant over the whole concept of reparations in the other topic.


You went into a rant over reparations because you've substitiuted right-wing politics for both Christianity and humanity.

"I've been to Moose Jaw, now I can die." -- John Wing

This message is a reply to:
 Message 181 by Phat, posted 06-17-2021 7:25 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 19140
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.5


Message 186 of 208 (886909)
06-17-2021 12:43 PM
Reply to: Message 183 by Phat
06-17-2021 11:34 AM


Re: ringo needs John, Paul, and George.
Phat writes:

And when I ask ringo why he has not given up all he has I am met with the derisive comment that he is not a believer. Hypocrite.


I can't be a hypocrite for not doing something I don't believe in. If I professed belief, like you do, and didn't follow up on that profession, like you don't, then I would be a hypocrite, like you are. Your "belief" is empty because you overrate the importance of the Envelope instead of paying the bill.

Phat writes:

Non-believers cannot hold believers to a standard.


Of course we can.

Phat writes:

It is between us and Jesus.


It's between you and your made-up "Jesus".

"I've been to Moose Jaw, now I can die." -- John Wing

This message is a reply to:
 Message 183 by Phat, posted 06-17-2021 11:34 AM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 187 by Phat, posted 06-17-2021 2:43 PM ringo has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 15467
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 187 of 208 (886911)
06-17-2021 2:43 PM
Reply to: Message 186 by ringo
06-17-2021 12:43 PM


Re: ringo needs John, Paul, and George.
It's between you and your made-up "Jesus".

Why should I listen to a character in a book?


"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
- Criss Jami, Killo

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 186 by ringo, posted 06-17-2021 12:43 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 188 by anglagard, posted 06-17-2021 8:32 PM Phat has responded
 Message 189 by dwise1, posted 06-17-2021 11:05 PM Phat has responded
 Message 192 by ringo, posted 06-18-2021 12:07 PM Phat has not yet responded

  
anglagard
Member
Posts: 2309
From: Socorro, New Mexico USA
Joined: 03-18-2006
Member Rating: 4.8


Message 188 of 208 (886916)
06-17-2021 8:32 PM
Reply to: Message 187 by Phat
06-17-2021 2:43 PM


Re: ringo needs John, Paul, and George.
Phat writes:

Why should I listen to a character in a book?

Because that is how you distinguish between The closest thing you have to understanding the character of Christ, if you argue that someone else knows more about it, what do you think their source is? Jim Jones, Charlie Manson, Jim Baker, Peter Popov, Malcolm X, Hong Xiuquan?

I beginning believe you will do anything to ignore the words of Christ because, like those twins in the WWitch, it would burn you.

Instead of cursing Christ, why do you prefer to wallow in a some fake form of Christianity that has no Christ?

Edited by anglagard, : Improve last sentence.


The problem with knowing everything is learning nothing.

If you don't know what you're doing, find someone who does, and do what they do.

Republican = death


This message is a reply to:
 Message 187 by Phat, posted 06-17-2021 2:43 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 191 by Phat, posted 06-18-2021 8:57 AM anglagard has not yet responded

  
dwise1
Member
Posts: 4639
Joined: 05-02-2006
Member Rating: 4.5


Message 189 of 208 (886917)
06-17-2021 11:05 PM
Reply to: Message 187 by Phat
06-17-2021 2:43 PM


Re: ringo needs John, Paul, and George.
Why should I listen to a character in a book?

Well, with that attitude, why read the book if you don't want to listen to what it says?

An author writes a book in order to say something. Most of the time, authors use characters to deliver that message. Therefore, the most important things in a book will be said by the characters. So if you refuse to listen to the characters, then you will not hear the message. And if you're going to refuse to hear the message, then why even bother to read the book?

That holds true even if it's τον Βιβλιον. Which tells us yet again that you do not want to listen to what the Bible says.

Edited by dwise1, : added final sentence


This message is a reply to:
 Message 187 by Phat, posted 06-17-2021 2:43 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 190 by Phat, posted 06-18-2021 8:54 AM dwise1 has not yet responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 15467
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 190 of 208 (886918)
06-18-2021 8:54 AM
Reply to: Message 189 by dwise1
06-17-2021 11:05 PM


Honestly
OK, Dwise1, I will level with you. First, I always have believed that God does exist, from the first time I came to EvC in 2003. I was challenged in my thought process and asked to question my conclusions---repeatedly over these years, and I refused to publically do so, though in my prayers and meditations, I did. There are several possibilities that are Inconvenient Truths were they to actually be evidenced, and I will admit that I could be wrong in my thinking, my beliefs, and my world views.

Tangle will tell you that I am a doom and groomer, but I have confidence in my ability to discern truth in information. As far as God goes, we likely will never agree on that. Which is ok. A relief, actually. If we all honestly saw things the same way, we would either all be end times preppers or I would become less religious and more scientific.

You are a rational thinker. I dont expect any of my chosen apologists to sway or impress you in the least. I can even admit that I use large doses of confirmation bias to avoid any inconvenient truths which may or may not pop up. But lets talk another form of apologetics. Rational economics. I want you to listen to Surging Inflation Is Anything but Transitory – Ep 700 and using everything your rational mind can tell you about truths, cons, and rational economic theory tell me that Schiff is simply a con and not a legitimate voice crying in the wilderness. Ringo seems to not mind if the US middle class gets thoroughly fleeced nor is jar. I see it differently. I see a strong likelihood of another Great Depression and it is this one event that will trigger class warfare and a global crisis of confidence in humanity.

Even if Jesus and the whole mythos of Christianity turned out to be a human-created story, the reality of a global clash seems more imminent than not.


"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
- Criss Jami, Killo

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 189 by dwise1, posted 06-17-2021 11:05 PM dwise1 has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 193 by ringo, posted 06-18-2021 12:14 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply
 Message 196 by Percy, posted 06-19-2021 2:18 PM Phat has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 15467
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 191 of 208 (886919)
06-18-2021 8:57 AM
Reply to: Message 188 by anglagard
06-17-2021 8:32 PM


Re: ringo needs John, Paul, and George.
anglagard writes:

Instead of cursing Christ, why do you prefer to wallow in a some fake form of Christianity that has no Christ?

Good question. Am I fooling myself?

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
- Criss Jami, Killo

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 188 by anglagard, posted 06-17-2021 8:32 PM anglagard has not yet responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 19140
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.5


Message 192 of 208 (886921)
06-18-2021 12:07 PM
Reply to: Message 187 by Phat
06-17-2021 2:43 PM


Re: ringo needs John, Paul, and George.
Phat writes:

Why should I listen to a character in a book?


Don't listen to the messenger. Listen to the message.

"I've been to Moose Jaw, now I can die." -- John Wing

This message is a reply to:
 Message 187 by Phat, posted 06-17-2021 2:43 PM Phat has not yet responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 19140
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.5


Message 193 of 208 (886922)
06-18-2021 12:14 PM
Reply to: Message 190 by Phat
06-18-2021 8:54 AM


Re: Honestly
Phat writes:

Ringo seems to not mind if the US middle class gets thoroughly fleeced....


And you don't mind if the lower classes continue to get thoroughly fleeced, as they have since always. You don't even seem to mind being part of the fleecing as long as YOUR private hoard is protected.

Phat writes:

I see a strong likelihood of another Great Depression and it is this one event that will trigger class warfare and a global crisis of confidence in humanity.


But the Great Depression didn't trigger class warfare, Mr. Marx. And it didn't trigger a global crisis of confidence in humanity. If anything, it awakened a lot of people to the fact that we HAVE to have confidence in humanity because we can't trust the spooks to do anything for us.

"I've been to Moose Jaw, now I can die." -- John Wing

This message is a reply to:
 Message 190 by Phat, posted 06-18-2021 8:54 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

Replies to this message:
 Message 194 by dwise1, posted 06-18-2021 1:45 PM ringo has acknowledged this reply

  
dwise1
Member
Posts: 4639
Joined: 05-02-2006
Member Rating: 4.5


(2)
Message 194 of 208 (886924)
06-18-2021 1:45 PM
Reply to: Message 193 by ringo
06-18-2021 12:14 PM


Re: Honestly
If anything, [the Great Depression] awakened a lot of people to the fact that we HAVE to have confidence in humanity because we can't trust the spooks to do anything for us.

There's the old story of the man out on a walk and coming upon a beautiful garden with the gardener there at work.


"You and God have done a wonderful job here."
"Thank you. But you should have seen what a horrible mess it was when only God was taking care of it."

And there's the Call to Prayer in my Unitarian-Universalist church, which ended with:

" ... knowing that prayer does not change things, but rather prayer changes us and we are the agents of change."

Which is why only offering "our thoughts and prayers" never does a damned thing towards solving a problem.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 193 by ringo, posted 06-18-2021 12:14 PM ringo has acknowledged this reply

Replies to this message:
 Message 195 by Phat, posted 06-19-2021 12:56 PM dwise1 has not yet responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 15467
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 195 of 208 (886938)
06-19-2021 12:56 PM
Reply to: Message 194 by dwise1
06-18-2021 1:45 PM


Re: Honestly
dwise1's quote writes:

But you should have seen what a horrible mess it was when only God was taking care of it."

This is a good argument for believers avoiding parking their brains at the door. When we give our lives to Christ we don't instantly become brainless zombies. This is why I contradict my professed beliefs on a regular basis. I am an example of a human beset with double-mindedness.

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
- Criss Jami, Killo

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 194 by dwise1, posted 06-18-2021 1:45 PM dwise1 has not yet responded

  
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