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Author Topic:   Peanut Gallery Comments on Great Debate
Percy
Member
Posts: 20117
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 3.4


Message 196 of 208 (886945)
06-19-2021 2:18 PM
Reply to: Message 190 by Phat
06-18-2021 8:54 AM


Re: Honestly
Phat writes:

I want you to listen to Surging Inflation Is Anything but Transitory – Ep 700 and using everything your rational mind can tell you about truths, cons, and rational economic theory tell me that Schiff is simply a con and not a legitimate voice crying in the wilderness.

Oh, wow, Irwin Schiff had a son who's a conman, too. Irwin was a leading voice in the tax protester movement of the 1980's, but he was at least honest enough to practice what he preached, convicted of tax evasion just like Kent Hovind and eventually dying in prison.

Peter Schiff seems to have invented his own brand of nonsense schtick. I'm guessing that he's the source of your hyperinflation nonsense - his father preached the same stuff. You know what I think you should do? You should send all your money to his Euro Pacific Capital. I'm sure he'll see you safely through the coming financial crisis.

--Percy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 190 by Phat, posted 06-18-2021 8:54 AM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 197 by Phat, posted 06-19-2021 3:05 PM Percy has responded
 Message 200 by LamarkNewAge, posted 06-20-2021 12:31 PM Percy has acknowledged this reply

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 15467
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 197 of 208 (886946)
06-19-2021 3:05 PM
Reply to: Message 196 by Percy
06-19-2021 2:18 PM


Re: Honestly
wow, so Irwin was his Father? They feature him on CNN...I figured he was legit. I appreciate your feedback even if it didn't confirm my imaginations.

Wiki writes:

Among the arguments raised over the years by Schiff:

That the Internal Revenue Service, in enforcing the income tax, seeks to impose a tax not authorized by the taxing clauses of the United States Constitution;
That no statutory deficiency in Federal income tax can exist until an assessment has been made;
The filing of income tax is voluntary, and "voluntary compliance" is a misleading phrase used by the IRS to mislead the public;
That no tax assessment can be made unless a tax return has been voluntarily filed;
That the United States Tax Court has no jurisdiction over him; and
That the United States Tax Court is not a legal court, but is instead a part of the IRS.
That "income" as properly defined according to his reading of court decisions and statutes, is not wages, but only corporate profits.

These arguments were ruled invalid in Schiff v. Commissioner.[10] Another argument made by Schiff on his web site is: "On the [Form] 1040 itself... you report 'zero' income regardless of how much you received in: wages, commissions, interest, alimony, capital gains or from operating a business. For tax purposes, 'income' only means corporate 'profit.' Therefore, no individual receives anything that is reportable as 'income'."[11] This argument has been rejected by the lower courts, as well as the United States courts of appeal. See Cameron v. Internal Revenue Serv.;[12] Stoewer v. Commissioner;[13] Reinhart v. United States;[14] Fink v. Commissioner;[15] Flathers v. Commissioner;[16] Schroeder v. Commissioner;[17] Sherwood v. Commissioner;[18] and Ho v. Commissioner.[19]

According to his son, Peter Schiff, "my father was most known for his staunch opposition to the federal income tax, for which the US government labeled him a 'tax protester.' But he had no objection to lawful, reasonable taxation."

Also...
Who Is Peter Schiff?

Peter Schiff is either loved or laughed at. While his supporters view him as a savant and hero who predicted the stock market crash and housing crisis of 2008, his critics write him off as a “doomsdayer” conspiracy theorist who will have you stockpiling gold bouillon while you wait for the economy to collapse.(...)As a vocal libertarian, Schiff became Ron Paul's economic advisor in his bid for the presidency in 2008.
I am no foe of Libertarians, and Schiff is hardly my only source fueling my confirmation bias. I have been a gold bug since I first "got saved" in 1993. Had I saved my silver when I had 4000 ounces at 4.00 an ounce back then, I would be sitting pretty now.

This may sound crazy, though you all already think I am, but right after I got saved I began to obsess about gold and silver and read a lot of literature back then. It had since proven to be right. You need to propose how the US is going to wriggle out of our inflationary and debt mess so as to prevent the fleecing of the middle class which will occur as jars infamous bill gets paid.

Edited by Phat, : No reason given.

Edited by Phat, : added info


"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
- Criss Jami, Killo

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 196 by Percy, posted 06-19-2021 2:18 PM Percy has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 198 by ringo, posted 06-20-2021 8:59 AM Phat has responded
 Message 207 by Percy, posted 06-22-2021 8:42 AM Phat has not yet responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 19140
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.5


Message 198 of 208 (886950)
06-20-2021 8:59 AM
Reply to: Message 197 by Phat
06-19-2021 3:05 PM


Re: Honestly
Phat writes:

...right after I got saved I began to obsess about gold and silver...


There's a clue about the cause of your "enlightenment". Ever hear, "the love of money is the root of all evil"?

"I've been to Moose Jaw, now I can die." -- John Wing

This message is a reply to:
 Message 197 by Phat, posted 06-19-2021 3:05 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 199 by Phat, posted 06-20-2021 11:50 AM ringo has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 15467
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 199 of 208 (886953)
06-20-2021 11:50 AM
Reply to: Message 198 by ringo
06-20-2021 8:59 AM


Re: Honestly
Oh I know. It most definitely was an evil spirit. When one gets an encounter with the Holy Spirit it also means one will be tested by Satan. It's part of the deal. You can insist on evidence, but I have seen confirmation enough times that I don't need to prove anything to you.

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
- Criss Jami, Killo

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 198 by ringo, posted 06-20-2021 8:59 AM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 201 by ringo, posted 06-20-2021 4:23 PM Phat has responded

  
LamarkNewAge
Member
Posts: 1846
Joined: 12-22-2015


Message 200 of 208 (886954)
06-20-2021 12:31 PM
Reply to: Message 196 by Percy
06-19-2021 2:18 PM


Irwin Schiff went back to prison?
He was out in 1996. I remember when he ran for the Libertarian presidential nomination (He lost to Harry Browne).

He ran on releasing the entire U.S. prison population and, of course, the tax issue.

I need to look this up. He died behind bars. I feel that he did not deserve it, honestly.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 196 by Percy, posted 06-19-2021 2:18 PM Percy has acknowledged this reply

Replies to this message:
 Message 203 by Phat, posted 06-20-2021 7:03 PM LamarkNewAge has not yet responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 19140
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.5


Message 201 of 208 (886955)
06-20-2021 4:23 PM
Reply to: Message 199 by Phat
06-20-2021 11:50 AM


Re: Honestly
Phat writes:

Oh I know. It most definitely was an evil spirit.


You definitely do not know that.

Phat writes:

When one gets an encounter with the Holy Spirit it also means one will be tested by Satan.


Everybody is "tested". The only difference is that you use "Satan" as an excuse.

But we were talking about your obsession with gold and silver. It looks like you failed the test.

Phat writes:

You can insist on evidence, but I have seen confirmation enough times that I don't need to prove anything to you.


Confirmation bias times ten is still confirmation bias. With no evidence, you have no basis for your conclusion.

"I've been to Moose Jaw, now I can die." -- John Wing

This message is a reply to:
 Message 199 by Phat, posted 06-20-2021 11:50 AM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 202 by Phat, posted 06-20-2021 6:52 PM ringo has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 15467
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 202 of 208 (886956)
06-20-2021 6:52 PM
Reply to: Message 201 by ringo
06-20-2021 4:23 PM


Re: Honestly
You definitely do not know that.
This is what keeps the likes of any of you from believing anything. You have flawed thinking, though it likely isnt your fault...it is rational. You first conclude that all gods are in the same pile. Insisting upon objective proof, (which one will never find with God) you find none and move on. Some of you even claim to have known God at one point in your past but you dismiss Him as just another Santa Claus and refer to the pile of gods as collective human mythos. In such conditions, there never would be any God to cling to, since your internal standards regarding objective evidence shuts the possibility of belief out of any equation.

And I have no credibility among any of you with which to convince you. You obviously have concluded that any so-called believer who refuses to give everything up is unworthy to be taken seriously. So what happened with your house, anyway? Do you need a place to live? Or are you counting on the spare change of the masses to pay you back for decades of carefree spare changing helping them? If so, I must respect you. Not only do I have trouble with some of the book words of Jesus, but I also have issues trusting the nameless masses' attention to taking care of me. My Dad always taught me to work and take care of myself. He never carried spare change, but he would willingly buy a guy a meal and also would offer them temporary jobs sweeping out the houses which he built. I was thus taught to be frugal yet not overly stingy. I think I picked up that selfishness on my own.

With no evidence, you have no basis for your conclusion.
Yes i do. Its called belief. My problem was that I believed in gold and silver and not enough in Jesus. But then again, you dont think He ever existed apart from a book and yet chide me for refusing to listen to that book.

You have standards for a believer that are higher than 90% of believers embrace.

You...use satan as an excuse
I use my own love of comfort and fear of pain and suffering as my excuse. I have indeed failed the test.

Edited by Phat, : added excuses


"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
- Criss Jami, Killo

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 201 by ringo, posted 06-20-2021 4:23 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 204 by ringo, posted 06-20-2021 9:41 PM Phat has responded
 Message 208 by Percy, posted 06-22-2021 2:56 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 15467
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 203 of 208 (886957)
06-20-2021 7:03 PM
Reply to: Message 200 by LamarkNewAge
06-20-2021 12:31 PM


Re: Irwin Schiff went back to prison?
LNA writes:

I need to look this up. He died behind bars. I feel that he did not deserve it, honestly.

I never knew much about Irwin, but as Peter himself would tell you, what possible good is it when taxes bring in perhaps 3 trillion max a year and stimulus packages use 6 trillion? Our debt is approaching 30 trillion. The government and the Federal Reserve obviously no longer believe that they will stop this charging reality...so they likely plan to inflate their way out of the long-term debt. This strategy will ruin the savings of the average US citizen.

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
- Criss Jami, Killo

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 200 by LamarkNewAge, posted 06-20-2021 12:31 PM LamarkNewAge has not yet responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 19140
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.5


Message 204 of 208 (886959)
06-20-2021 9:41 PM
Reply to: Message 202 by Phat
06-20-2021 6:52 PM


Re: Honestly
Phat writes:

This is what keeps the likes of any of you from believing anything.


I believe in plenty of things - democracy, charity, etc. The reason I don't believe in your particular brand of lunacy is because it's blatantly false.

Phat writes:

You have flawed thinking, though it likely isnt your fault...it is rational.


How is rational thinking flawed?

Phat writes:

You first conclude that all gods are in the same pile.


That conclusion is well-founded. Why have you never been able to show that it's wrong?

Phat writes:

Insisting upon objective proof, (which one will never find with God) you find none and move on.


That's just a copout. Why would there be no objective proof?

Phat writes:

... there never would be any God to cling to, since your internal standards regarding objective evidence shuts the possibility of belief out of any equation.


No it doesn't. The possibility is always there.

Phat writes:

ringo writes:

With no evidence, you have no basis for your conclusion.


Yes i do. Its called belief.

Nope. That doesn't work. There are millions of people with different beliefs, many of them stronger than yours. YOU have rejected belief as a basis.

Phat writes:

But then again, you dont think He ever existed apart from a book and yet chide me for refusing to listen to that book.


I chide you for calling yourself a Christian when you reject almost everything Christ ever said. You even have the gall to argue against what He said.

Phat writes:

You have standards for a believer that are higher than 90% of believers embrace.


Jesus said it was 100%.

"I've been to Moose Jaw, now I can die." -- John Wing

This message is a reply to:
 Message 202 by Phat, posted 06-20-2021 6:52 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 205 by Phat, posted 06-21-2021 8:38 AM ringo has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 15467
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 205 of 208 (886960)
06-21-2021 8:38 AM
Reply to: Message 204 by ringo
06-20-2021 9:41 PM


The Man In The Mirror
ringo writes:

There are millions of people with different beliefs, many of them stronger than yours. YOU have rejected belief as a basis.

Not true. I have rejected your silly idea of all gods being in the same pile, which is to me indicative of relativistic humanist thinking regarding the idea of a god to begin with.

I, being human, have resisted(as opposed to renounced) the God whom I know exists through Jesus Christ because I am chicken. I am scared to go all in and give up all I have. I am very much aware of my predicament. I hope and pray that He gives me some more time. (He mentions that He would prefer humans being either cold or hot rather than lukewarm)

ringo writes:

I chide you for calling yourself a Christian when you reject almost everything Christ ever said. You even have the gall to argue against what He said.

And why should this bother you? To you, He is simply a character in a book and an Elmer Gantry compilation of historical characters. Where is the gall at rejecting that?

You have standards for a believer that is higher than 90% of believers embrace.

ringo writes:

Jesus said it was 100%.

Well there you go, then. Even Jesus knew(knows) that none of us are righteous and that none of us will give it all up. So why get on my case? Address the man in the mirror. But of course, you follow the message in principle because you have this delusion that people are basically good at heart and will willingly give from each according to their ability to each according to their need. You and jar have basically concluded from the written evidence that all humans are well aware of good and evil and thus have a charge(a responsibility) to do good...as we all go riding off into the secular humanist sunset together. Oh if only it were true, we wouldnt need Jesus.

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
- Criss Jami, Killo

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 204 by ringo, posted 06-20-2021 9:41 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 206 by ringo, posted 06-21-2021 12:35 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 19140
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.5


Message 206 of 208 (886961)
06-21-2021 12:35 PM
Reply to: Message 205 by Phat
06-21-2021 8:38 AM


Re: The Man In The Mirror
Phat writes:

I have rejected your silly idea of all gods being in the same pile...


And you have completely failed to back up your claim that that idea is wrong. DO THAT before you repeat your assertion.

Phat writes:

... which is to me indicative of relativistic humanist thinking regarding the idea of a god to begin with.


And your complete failure to refute the idea tends to support the relativistic outlook. If it ain't relative, SHOW us.

Phat writes:

I, being human, have resisted(as opposed to renounced) the God whom I know exists through Jesus Christ because I am chicken.


That isn't true. You have argued against what Jesus said. You have argued that he never said it. You have tried to water down what He said. You have argued that what He said is a bad idea. That's WAY beyond just being afraid to do what He said.

Phat writes:

ringo writes:

I chide you for calling yourself a Christian when you reject almost everything Christ ever said. You even have the gall to argue against what He said.


And why should this bother you? To you, He is simply a character in a book and an Elmer Gantry compilation of historical characters. Where is the gall at rejecting that?

I respect the Book, the same as I respect Treasure Island. It makes no difference whether the characters ever existed. It galls me that you have no respect for literature.

(By the way. I just watched the movie Elmer Gantry again the other day. It's worth watching just for the music.)

Phat writes:

Even Jesus knew(knows) that none of us are righteous...


That's not an excuse. Remember Matthew 25? You will be judged by how much you accomplished, not by how often you bleated, "Lord! Lord!"

Phat writes:

... and that none of us will give it all up.


False. There were the disciples. There was the lady with two mites. There was the early church (except for Ananias and Sapphira, who were killed for not doing it). In the Old Testament there was the widow who fed Elijah. In more modern times there have been monastic societies, including non-Christian ones. So stop saying it's impossible.

Phat writes:

So why get on my case? Address the man in the mirror.


Right back atcha. You're the one who believes in the messenger. Why do you reject the message? I don't believe in the messenger. I accept the message for other reasons.

Phat writes:

you have this delusion that people are basically good at heart and will willingly give from each according to their ability to each according to their need.


Show that it's a delusion. Show that people don't do it (keeping in mind the list of people above who DO do it).

Phat writes:

You and jar have basically concluded from the written evidence that all humans are well aware of good and evil and thus have a charge(a responsibility) to do good...


How could you conclude anything else?

Phat writes:

Oh if only it were true, we wouldnt need Jesus.


Bingo. We don't need Jesus. We don't HAVE Jesus doing anything for us.

"I've been to Moose Jaw, now I can die." -- John Wing

This message is a reply to:
 Message 205 by Phat, posted 06-21-2021 8:38 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 20117
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 3.4


Message 207 of 208 (886963)
06-22-2021 8:42 AM
Reply to: Message 197 by Phat
06-19-2021 3:05 PM


Re: Honestly
Phat writes:

This may sound crazy, though you all already think I am, but right after I got saved I began to obsess about gold and silver and read a lot of literature back then. It had since proven to be right.

You're being selective. Much literature predicted gold and silver would fall. How did you select which was right? Why weren't you convinced by the other literature to sell gold short?

You need to propose how the US is going to wriggle out of our inflationary and debt mess so as to prevent the fleecing of the middle class which will occur as jars infamous bill gets paid.

The only inflationary and debt mess is in your head, like most of what you say. You have enormous difficulty anchoring your flights of fancy to reality. You can't guide your life by making random decisions about who to follow. Well, you can, but then you get chaos, though after a while I suppose you get used to it and it seems normal.

--Percy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 197 by Phat, posted 06-19-2021 3:05 PM Phat has not yet responded

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 20117
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 3.4


Message 208 of 208 (886969)
06-22-2021 2:56 PM
Reply to: Message 202 by Phat
06-20-2021 6:52 PM


Re: Honestly
Phat writes:

Phat writes:

Oh I know. It most definitely was an evil spirit.

You definitely do not know that.

This is what keeps the likes of any of you from believing anything.

Having evidence keeps people from believing things that aren't true.

You have flawed thinking, though it likely isn't your fault...it is rational.

Can you provide an example of rational thinking leading to flawed conclusions while irrational thinking leads to correct ones?

You first conclude that all gods are in the same pile.

More inclusively, all gods are in the same pile with everything else that lacks evidence.

Insisting upon objective proof, (which one will never find with God) you find none and move on.

More accurately, "objective evidence" rather than "objective proof." Everything real interacts with the real world, and those interactions are evidence that it is real. Ask yourself how we know neutrinos are real?

Some of you even claim to have known God at one point in your past but you dismiss Him as just another Santa Claus and refer to the pile of gods as collective human mythos. In such conditions, there never would be any God to cling to, since your internal standards regarding objective evidence shuts the possibility of belief out of any equation.

Without evidence, how do you tell which beliefs are true and which are not?

And I have no credibility among any of you with which to convince you.

If you had any credibility it might cause us to judge what you say as worth taking seriously before checking it out, but you have a long history of not being able to connect ideas to reality. You have trained us to automatically reject what you say as flights of fancy.

But credibility can only be employed to get one's ideas considered. Ideas do not become accepted because of the credibility of those promoting them but through evidence. So even if you had credibility it wouldn't help you convince anyone that God is real.

Not only do I have trouble with some of the book words of Jesus,...

You're picking and choosing what to believe.

With no evidence, you have no basis for your conclusion.

Yes I do. Its called belief.

If belief is all it takes for something to be real then all religious beliefs are valid.

My problem was that I believed in gold and silver and not enough in Jesus.

You can hold gold and silver in your hot little hands. We know gold and silver exist not because you believe in them but because there is evidence galore that they exist. That is not true of Jesus.

--Percy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 202 by Phat, posted 06-20-2021 6:52 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
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