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Author Topic:   Peanut Gallery Comments on Great Debate
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6187
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.8


Message 31 of 92 (845371)
12-15-2018 12:58 AM
Reply to: Message 29 by Tangle
12-14-2018 4:06 PM


Re: Tangles Comment
Hi Tangle

Tangle writes:

And yet you send missionaries out to do just that.

We send missionaries out to preach the gospel they like I can not convert anyone. A person has to be drawn by the Holy Spirit when they hear the word and then choose to accept God's offer of a free full pardon.

But many of our missionaries are doctors, farmers, well drillers and builders. They do a little more than preach the gospel.

Tangle writes:

All the evidence so far seems to confirm it.

You can't even recognize evidence even if it comes from Guth or Penrose so how would you know.

Tangle writes:

Sorry Chuck I've seen too many charlatans like you to be impressed by your brand of insanity.

Tell that to the devil when you meet him face to face. Because he is the charlatan who has blinded you and fogged your mind with nonsense.

God Bless, and good by.


"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 29 by Tangle, posted 12-14-2018 4:06 PM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 32 by Tangle, posted 12-15-2018 3:20 AM ICANT has not yet responded

    
Tangle
Member
Posts: 6618
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 3.5


Message 32 of 92 (845373)
12-15-2018 3:20 AM
Reply to: Message 31 by ICANT
12-15-2018 12:58 AM


Re: Tangles Comment
ICANT writes:

We send missionaries out to preach the gospel they like I can not convert anyone. A person has to be drawn by the Holy Spirit when they hear the word and then choose to accept God's offer of a free full pardon.

What disingenuous tosh. You send missionaries to convert.

You can't even recognize evidence even if it comes from Guth or Penrose so how would you know?

As you know, the evidence I was talking about was that you don't have a clue what science is and don't have the capacity or education to understand it. You cherry pick and reject ideas that contradict your religious views and your motivation is to corrupt scientific findings for your own superstitious purposes, you're not interested in 'truth' at all.

At what age did you leave school, did you even go to school?


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 31 by ICANT, posted 12-15-2018 12:58 AM ICANT has not yet responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 16147
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 3.0


Message 33 of 92 (845395)
12-15-2018 12:02 PM
Reply to: Message 26 by ICANT
12-14-2018 2:00 PM


Re: Birds Of A Feather
ICANT writes:

Since Matthew 25:31 suites what ringo wants to believe there is no scripture more important than that particular one.


The only reason I ever mention Matthew 25 is because so many so-called "believers" ignore it or twist it.

ICANT writes:

God made a promise to the nations that helped the descendants of Abraham. That promise will be fulfilled in the following verses of Matthew 25:31-46 when the nations that have helped the descendants of Abraham will be allowed to go into the 1000 year reign of Christ on the earth.


That isn't what it says though. It says "all nations".

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 26 by ICANT, posted 12-14-2018 2:00 PM ICANT has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 36 by ICANT, posted 12-15-2018 3:41 PM ringo has responded

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 4776
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 34 of 92 (845398)
12-15-2018 12:51 PM
Reply to: Message 27 by ICANT
12-14-2018 2:35 PM


Re: Tangles Comment
ICANT writes:

Tangle you have come short of the glory of God. Because you are lost and doomed for a devils hell if you don't accept Jesus Christ as your savior.

This view of my Christian faith drives me crazy. It isn't Biblical at all. You have returned to salvation by works by turning belief in a specific doctrine into a work. It is what Jesus spoke against when He spoke against the Pharisees.

The Bible is clear that it is all about the heart. Yes, as Christians we turn to God to change our hearts but we have to be genuinely open to allowing that to happen. Even then it is about vocation in that we have been called to reflect God's love into the world, not about personal salvation

We are also told not to judge that we be not judged. What our place will be in the new creation is God's business and not mine or yours. What is important is not our doctrine but about having hearts that image the nature of our loving, forgiving and just God whose Word or wisdom was embodied in Jesus, regardless of our religious beliefs. That is Biblical. Read my signature from Micah, read Matthew 25 and actually open your heart to the whole Biblical narrative.


He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 27 by ICANT, posted 12-14-2018 2:35 PM ICANT has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 35 by ICANT, posted 12-15-2018 3:32 PM GDR has responded

    
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6187
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.8


Message 35 of 92 (845420)
12-15-2018 3:32 PM
Reply to: Message 34 by GDR
12-15-2018 12:51 PM


Re: Tangles Comment
Hi GDR

GDR writes:

ICANT writes:

Tangle you have come short of the glory of God. Because you are lost and doomed for a devils hell if you don't accept Jesus Christ as your savior.

This view of my Christian faith drives me crazy. It isn't Biblical at all. You have returned to salvation by works by turning belief in a specific doctrine into a work. It is what Jesus spoke against when He spoke against the Pharisees.

quote:
John 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

Do you disagree with John.

He says you are condemned already because you have not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

That is the only verse in the Bible that tells why a person will spend eternity in the lake of fire.

GDR writes:

The Bible is clear that it is all about the heart.

Where?

All the heart does is pump blood through the cardiovascular system.
It has no way of making decisions.

GDR writes:

Yes, as Christians we turn to God to change our hearts

How do you change your heart? Have a transplant.

GDR writes:

What is important is not our doctrine but about having hearts that image the nature of our loving, forgiving and just God

Paul thought the gospel which is a doctrine was very important. Galatians 1:8

Your heart can not image anything. All it can do is pump blood through your blood vessels.

GDR writes:

regardless of our religious beliefs.

If it does not make any difference what we believe why did Jesus say:

quote:
John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

Jesus says there is one way to God. You are saying there are many ways to God. If you don't mind I will trust Jesus. Even if you do mind I will trust Jesus.

quote:
Micah 6:8 He hath shewed thee, O man, what is good; and what doth the LORD require of thee, but to do justly, and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with thy God?

That does not say anything about receiving eternal life for doing those things. But yes I think we should obey the 2 commandments Jesus gave us which is:

quote:
Matthew 22:36 Master, which is the great commandment in the law?

22:37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.

22:38 This is the first and great commandment.

22:39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

22:40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.


Jesus gave us only 2 commandments. We should obey them.

You do not have anything in your signature about Matthew 25 and you are not using what you do have from Micah. You have to click the include signature for it to be at the bottom of your post.

I will assume in Matthew 25 you are referring to the judgment of the nations verse 32. If you are in this judgment you better hope America is one of the sheep nations but I don't find America listed anywhere in the New Testament or in the prophecies.

God Bless,


"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 34 by GDR, posted 12-15-2018 12:51 PM GDR has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 37 by Phat, posted 12-15-2018 4:12 PM ICANT has not yet responded
 Message 38 by GDR, posted 12-15-2018 8:42 PM ICANT has not yet responded

    
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6187
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.8


Message 36 of 92 (845423)
12-15-2018 3:41 PM
Reply to: Message 33 by ringo
12-15-2018 12:02 PM


Re: Birds Of A Feather
Hi ringo

ringo writes:

The only reason I ever mention Matthew 25 is because so many so-called "believers" ignore it or twist it.

I do not ignore it. I just read it as it is written.

ringo writes:

That isn't what it says though. It says "all nations".

Yes and it includes all nations. But only the sheep nations are allowed to go into the kingdom of the 1000 year reign of Christ. All the goat nations are cast into everlasting fire.

Since you don't like my reasons for the nations that are selected as sheep nations maybe you could shed some light on the subject.

God Bless,


"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 33 by ringo, posted 12-15-2018 12:02 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 42 by ringo, posted 12-16-2018 1:36 PM ICANT has responded

    
Phat
Member
Posts: 12049
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.4


Message 37 of 92 (845430)
12-15-2018 4:12 PM
Reply to: Message 35 by ICANT
12-15-2018 3:32 PM


Re: Tangles Comment
GDR writes:

The Bible is clear that it is all about the heart.

ICANT writes:

Where?

I think that what GDR means is found in this scripture:
2 Corinthians 3:3.
Also:
Rom 2:13-16 writes:

For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God's sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous. 14(Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law, 15 since they show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts now accusing, now even defending them.) 16 This will take place on the day when God will judge men's secrets through Jesus Christ, as my gospel declares.

Granted this scripture also supports ICANTS position in that our thoughts can accuse and defend us. It seems clear that this supports the idea that it is what we do and think as well as what we believe. Ringo always emphasizes the message over "the messenger" but one can argue that without the death,burial, and resurrection of the messenger the message may as well have been written by a computer. The fact that ringo would argue that it still needs to be carried out even if no God existed is actually verified in this scripture:
Rom 1:18-20 writes:

The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of men who suppress the truth by their wickedness, 19 since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. 20 For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities-his eternal power and divine nature-have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse.

Of course ringo claims that the message is important while the messenger isn't, but John 3:18 seems to challenge that claim. Which brings up the question: If one does all of the right things that Jesus commanded without believing that Jesus existed, where do they then stand?

To be fair, God may have sent ringo to me to remind me that I'm not special just because I believe that I am saved. When ringo says things like "God is fiction" he challenges his own belief as much as allowing me to question mine.


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ĖRC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ĖMark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
~Stile


This message is a reply to:
 Message 35 by ICANT, posted 12-15-2018 3:32 PM ICANT has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 43 by ringo, posted 12-16-2018 1:43 PM Phat has responded

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 4776
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 2.2


(1)
Message 38 of 92 (845450)
12-15-2018 8:42 PM
Reply to: Message 35 by ICANT
12-15-2018 3:32 PM


Re: Tangles Comment
Hi ICANT You quote this verse.
quote:
ohn 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
Then you say this:
ICANT writes:

Do you disagree with John.
He says you are condemned already because you have not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
That is the only verse in the Bible that tells why a person will spend eternity in the lake of fire.


When I ask you if you believe in Donald Trump or not what do you think Iím asking you? Am I asking you if you think He exists? Do you think Iím asking you if he is the president? I think you would agree that Iím asking you if you believe what he stands for. Assuming you agree with the last question Iíll ask you this. Donald Trump has a philosophy of life. Do you think it is possible to believe in that philosophy without knowing Trump? In the same way you can believe in Jesus without knowing Him by name as you believe in His philosophy of love.
Read the verses which follow the verse in John 3 you quote.
quote:
19 This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but people loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil. 20 Everyone who does evil hates the light, and will not come into the light for fear that their deeds will be exposed. 21 But whoever lives by the truth comes into the light, so that it may be seen plainly that what they have done has been done in the sight of God.
It isnít talking here about giving intellectual ascent to any particular doctrine. The question is do you love the light or the darkness. Do you love the message of sacrificial love or the message of self love.
GDR writes:

The Bible is clear that it is all about the heart.

ICANT writes:

Where?

All through the NT, and even mostly in the OT. You might consider this quote from Matthew 15.
quote:
These people honor me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me.
It is clear that it is our hearts that God wants. It isnít about having the right doctrine.
There is this in Romans 2.
quote:
15 They show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts sometimes accusing them and at other times even defending them.
The requirements of the law is the requirement that we love our neighbour as ourselves. As Paul writes, ďGod knows the secrets of our heartsĒ.
Phat used another good quote from Romans
quote:
For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God's sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous.

Read Matthew 25. The sheep are the ones who visited those in prison, fed the hungry etc without having any idea they were doing it for Jesus. Their hearts were where God wanted them to be without reference to any particular doctrine.
Look at the story of the Good Samaritan. The Samaritans were considered to be outcasts by the Jews yet here was Jesus saying that it wasnít the Jewish religious big shots who were the righteous ones but the outcast Samaritan. I suggest that if Jesus was giving this parable today it would be the story of the good Muslim.
ICANT writes:

All the heart does is pump blood through the cardiovascular system.
It has no way of making decisions.
How do you change your heart? Have a transplant.
Your heart can not image anything. All it can do is pump blood through your blood vessels.


I guess I have to believe that you are actually serious posting that. Frankly, and I really do hate to be this critical, but as a pastor you should be really embarrassed. Try putting heart or hearts into any on-line commentary.

You quoted this:

quote:
John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

And then said this:
ICANT writes:

Jesus says there is one way to God. You are saying there are many ways to God. If you don't mind I will trust Jesus. Even if you do mind I will trust Jesus.


Jesus tells us that His way is the way to God, that He has embodied Godís truth and the way that our lives should be lived. His way is the way of love which is Godís truth and which brings life. I also trust Jesus but not an inerrant Bible that has led you down paths that are completely contrary to what Jesus calls us to.
quote:
Micah 6:8 He hath shewed thee, O man, what is good; and what doth the LORD require of thee, but to do justly, and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with thy God?
ICANT writes:

That does not say anything about receiving eternal life for doing those things.

No, it doesnít. It tells us what God wants of us. Your twisted form of Christianity is all about who gets eternal life and who doesnít. It turns Christianity into something that is intended to be other focused into something that is self focused. Your central point is to make sure that you are on the right side of the equation after you die. Christianity is about vocation, and personal salvation is a byproduct and up to God, not you and me. That vocation is to reflect Godís love into the world.
ICANT writes:

Jesus gave us only 2 commandments. We should obey them.

Couldnít agree more. If you notice there isnít a third that you have to give intellectual ascent to, (as in believe in), any particular doctrine
ICANT writes:

You do not have anything in your signature about Matthew 25 and you are not using what you do have from Micah. You have to click the include signature for it to be at the bottom of your post.

Ya, I was in a rush and forgot it.
ICANT writes:

I will assume in Matthew 25 you are referring to the judgment of the nations verse 32. If you are in this judgment you better hope America is one of the sheep nations but I don't find America listed anywhere in the New Testament or in the prophecies.

I wasnít actually referring to that but do you really think this is about individual nations? It is only saying that everybody from every nation will be before Him. Once again, the sheep will be the ones who from having a loving heart visited the prisoners, fed the hungry, gave shelter to the homeless etc without any though of reward including a desire for eternal life. They had no idea that they were doing this for Jesus. They did it because they had the commandments to love written on their hearts. It was doing those things that brought them joy. The goats were about themselves and not having hearts that loved others.
If we just get about our assigned task as humans of serving and loving Godís good creation and spend less time worryinmg about who is in and who is out God would be much better served.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 35 by ICANT, posted 12-15-2018 3:32 PM ICANT has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 39 by AZPaul3, posted 12-15-2018 10:43 PM GDR has responded

    
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 3764
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 4.3


Message 39 of 92 (845453)
12-15-2018 10:43 PM
Reply to: Message 38 by GDR
12-15-2018 8:42 PM


Re: Tangles Comment
If we just get about our assigned task as humans of serving and loving Godís good creation and spend less time worryinmg about who is in and who is out God would be much better served.

Comprehensive and very well said, sir!

If I wasn't such a heathen I might convert.

(nah)


This message is a reply to:
 Message 38 by GDR, posted 12-15-2018 8:42 PM GDR has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 40 by GDR, posted 12-16-2018 2:53 AM AZPaul3 has responded

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 4776
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 2.2


(1)
Message 40 of 92 (845455)
12-16-2018 2:53 AM
Reply to: Message 39 by AZPaul3
12-15-2018 10:43 PM


Re: Tangles Comment
AZPaul3 writes:

If I wasn't such a heathen I might convert.

...maybe you just did Merry Christmas

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 39 by AZPaul3, posted 12-15-2018 10:43 PM AZPaul3 has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 41 by AZPaul3, posted 12-16-2018 8:37 AM GDR has not yet responded

    
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 3764
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 4.3


(1)
Message 41 of 92 (845460)
12-16-2018 8:37 AM
Reply to: Message 40 by GDR
12-16-2018 2:53 AM


Re: Tangles Comment
Oh god no.

Just a little love for a well structured post.

Merry Christmas to you as well.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 40 by GDR, posted 12-16-2018 2:53 AM GDR has not yet responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 16147
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 3.0


Message 42 of 92 (845481)
12-16-2018 1:36 PM
Reply to: Message 36 by ICANT
12-15-2018 3:41 PM


Re: Birds Of A Feather
ICANT writes:

ringo writes:

The only reason I ever mention Matthew 25 is because so many so-called "believers" ignore it or twist it.


I just read it as it is written.

No you don't. You calimed in Message 33 that, "That promise will be fulfilled in the following verses of Matthew 25:31-46 when the nations that have helped the descendants of Abraham will be allowed to go into the 1000 year reign of Christ on the earth."

That's false. It doesn't say anything about, "the nations that have helped the descendants of Abraham." It says, "all nations."

ICANT writes:

But only the sheep nations are allowed to go into the kingdom of the 1000 year reign of Christ.


There are no "sheep nations" or "goat nations". People are judged individually.

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 36 by ICANT, posted 12-15-2018 3:41 PM ICANT has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 46 by ICANT, posted 12-16-2018 4:49 PM ringo has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 16147
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 3.0


(1)
Message 43 of 92 (845483)
12-16-2018 1:43 PM
Reply to: Message 37 by Phat
12-15-2018 4:12 PM


Re: Tangles Comment
Phat writes:

Of course ringo claims that the message is important while the messenger isn't, but John 3:18 seems to challenge that claim.


Nope.
quote:
John 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
We've been through this many times before. What does it mean to believe? If you throw the message away, how can you claim to "believe in" the messenger?

Phat writes:

Which brings up the question: If one does all of the right things that Jesus commanded without believing that Jesus existed, where do they then stand?


Jesus answered that question explicitly (Matthew 25).

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 37 by Phat, posted 12-15-2018 4:12 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 44 by Phat, posted 12-16-2018 2:33 PM ringo has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 12049
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.4


Message 44 of 92 (845508)
12-16-2018 2:33 PM
Reply to: Message 43 by ringo
12-16-2018 1:43 PM


Re: Tangles Comment
Not bad preaching for a guy who doesn't believe in the messenger!

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ĖRC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ĖMark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
~Stile


This message is a reply to:
 Message 43 by ringo, posted 12-16-2018 1:43 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 45 by ringo, posted 12-16-2018 2:36 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 16147
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 3.0


Message 45 of 92 (845511)
12-16-2018 2:36 PM
Reply to: Message 44 by Phat
12-16-2018 2:33 PM


Re: Tangles Comment
Phat writes:

Not bad preaching for a guy who doesn't believe in the messenger!


It's like you didn't read my post at all. Believing in the message is the only way to "believe in the messenger".

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 44 by Phat, posted 12-16-2018 2:33 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
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