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Author Topic:   Peanut Gallery Comments on Great Debate
Tangle
Member
Posts: 7945
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 3.1


(2)
Message 91 of 163 (847773)
01-26-2019 2:04 PM


I wonder if ICANT goes doorknocking for Jesus packing heat.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


Replies to this message:
 Message 92 by AZPaul3, posted 01-26-2019 2:20 PM Tangle has not yet responded

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 5365
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 4.4


Message 92 of 163 (847774)
01-26-2019 2:20 PM
Reply to: Message 91 by Tangle
01-26-2019 2:04 PM


I should imagine that with that number of doors one is bound to come across someone from a rival cult who thinks you're a heretic. Better to shoot first and turn the other cheek later.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 91 by Tangle, posted 01-26-2019 2:04 PM Tangle has not yet responded

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6384
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 93 of 163 (877583)
06-18-2020 6:21 PM
Reply to: Message 30 by Tangle
12-14-2018 4:20 PM


Re: Tangles Comment
Hi Tangle.

Tangle writes:

How far through school did you get with your mathematics?

Far enough to learn I can make numbers say anything I want them to say.

Also I know that the math says the universe had a beginning to exist as the math got to a point called singularity as it made no sense and could not predict anything, or give any information.

Tangle writes:

You presented! The balls of the man.

Enthropey what is it?

quote:
physics
a thermodynamic quantity representing the unavailability of a system's thermal energy for conversion into mechanical work, often interpreted as the degree of disorder or randomness in the system.
"the second law of thermodynamics says that entropy always increases with time"
Enthropy definition - Bing

Tangle could you explain how the law of thermodynamics could be dispensed with so the universe could be eternally existing in the past without being a dead frozen planet by now?

God Bless,


"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 30 by Tangle, posted 12-14-2018 4:20 PM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 94 by AZPaul3, posted 06-18-2020 11:58 PM ICANT has responded
 Message 95 by Tangle, posted 06-19-2020 3:32 AM ICANT has responded

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 5365
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 4.4


Message 94 of 163 (877586)
06-18-2020 11:58 PM
Reply to: Message 93 by ICANT
06-18-2020 6:21 PM


Re: Tangles Comment
Far enough to learn I can make numbers say anything I want them to say.

But not far enough to understand how/why science limits mathematics. Not far enough to understand why the models (math) science uses are productive to an exceptional degree of confidence.

Also I know that the math says the universe had a beginning to exist as the math got to a point called singularity as it made no sense and could not predict anything, or give any information.

No, our visible universe is telling us it had an earlier state. The math is just a tool we use to follow where the evidence the universe shows us leads.

The "singularity" is not a real thing. It is what we call that area of our ignorance where our models cannot yet follow where the universe is pointing.

how the law of thermodynamics could be dispensed with so the universe could be eternally existing in the past without being a dead frozen planet by now?

Entropy as we know it applies only to this, our visible, universe. This is not, as far as we know, an "eternally existing" universe. We have no idea what "universe" came before or if there are others in existence right now. Entropy was exceptionally low in *our* big bang and has been increasing ever since.

Our experience of entropy applies *only* to this universe. You can not use entropy to deny the beginning of this, our visible, universe. In fact, the laws of thermodynamics are strong lines of evidence in favor of an inflationary big bang state in both our standard Lambda-CDM model and Penrose's CCC (conformal cyclic cosmology) model of this universe.

Edited by AZPaul3, : No reason given.


Factio Republicana delenda est.
I am antifa.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 93 by ICANT, posted 06-18-2020 6:21 PM ICANT has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 98 by ICANT, posted 06-19-2020 3:16 PM AZPaul3 has responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 7945
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 3.1


Message 95 of 163 (877596)
06-19-2020 3:32 AM
Reply to: Message 93 by ICANT
06-18-2020 6:21 PM


Re: Tangles Comment
ICANT writes:

Far enough to learn I can make numbers say anything I want them to say.

Ok, so you left school before learning any at all. That's ok, but it does not make you a credible spokesman for the subject you're pontificating on.

Also I know that the math says the universe had a beginning to exist as the math got to a point called singularity as it made no sense and could not predict anything, or give any information.

Be honest ICANT, you have no understanding at all of what the maths means, very very few people have. What you're doing is attempting to impose your own religious interpretation on science's current hypothesises about origins in order to justify an irrational, unevidenced religious belief.

Tangle could you explain how the law of thermodynamics could be dispensed with so the universe could be eternally existing in the past without being a dead frozen planet by now?

No I could not, like you I am not a physicist. Unlike you I understand that I can't pontificate on subjects I have no knowledge of.

But if I could explain it too you, you would not be able to understand it but would reject it because it does not conform to your beliefs.

But as this is a PRATT, I can point you to an answer provided by those that are qualified to answer it.

Claim CF101:

The first law of thermodynamics says matter/energy cannot come from nothing. Therefore, the universe itself could not have formed naturally. (See also CE440: Origin of everything.)
Source:

Brown, Walt, 1995. In the beginning: Compelling evidence for creation and the Flood. Phoenix, AZ: Center for Scientific Creation, p. 21.
Response:

Formation of the universe from nothing need not violate conservation of energy. The gravitational potential energy of a gravitational field is a negative energy. When all the gravitational potential energy is added to all the other energy in the universe, it might sum to zero (Guth 1997, 9-12,271-276; Tryon 1973).
References:

Guth, Alan H., 1997. (see below)
Tryon, Edward P., 1973. Is the universe a vacuum fluctuation? Nature 246: 396-397.
Further Reading:

Guth, Alan H., 1997. The Inflationary Universe. Reading, MA: Addison-Wesley.

CF101: Origin of the Universe


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 93 by ICANT, posted 06-18-2020 6:21 PM ICANT has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 96 by ICANT, posted 06-19-2020 3:00 PM Tangle has responded

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6384
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 96 of 163 (877653)
06-19-2020 3:00 PM
Reply to: Message 95 by Tangle
06-19-2020 3:32 AM


Re: Tangles Comment
Hi Tangle,

Tangle writes:

Be honest ICANT, you have no understanding at all of what the maths means,

I got into the study of Calculus and decided I would never need it and went no further with it.

Math is not a dimension in the universe. It is a product of the mind of mankind.

So to get to singularity there has to be several assumptions made and numbers applied to events. If the assumptions are wrong then any outcome will be wrong.

Tangle writes:

What you're doing is attempting to impose your own religious interpretation on science's current hypothesises about origins in order to justify an irrational, unevidenced religious belief.

Why would I need to impose my religious interpretation of science's current hypothesis?

Did the universe have a beginning to exist? According to Stephen Hawking it did.

quote:
The conclusion of this lecture is that the universe has not existed forever. Rather, the universe, and time itself, had a beginning in the Big Bang, about 15 billion years ago.,
The Beginning of TIme

Stephen Hawking stated in his lecture on the beginning of time that the beginning of the universe would be determined by the laws of physics. That would include the first and second laws of thermodynamics.

quote:
The first law of thermodynamics is a version of the law of conservation of energy, adapted for thermodynamic processes, distinguishing two kinds of transfer of energy, as heat and as thermodynamic work, and relating them to a function of a body's state, called Internal energy.

The law of conservation of energy states that the total energy of an isolated system is constant; energy can be transformed from one form to another, but can be neither created nor destroyed.


First law of thermodynamics - Wikipedia

quote:
he second law of thermodynamics states that the total entropy of an isolated system can never decrease over time, and is constant if and only if all processes are reversible.[1] Isolated systems spontaneously evolve towards thermodynamic equilibrium, the state with maximum entropy.
Second law of thermodynamics - Wikipedia

quote:
physics
a thermodynamic quantity representing the unavailability of a system's thermal energy for conversion into mechanical work, often interpreted as the degree of disorder or randomness in the system.
"the second law of thermodynamics says that entropy always increases with time"

Entropy is the condition caused by energy being used to do work and total energy is always reduced by this mechanical work. ENTROPY | meaning in the Cambridge English Dictionary

Since energy cannot be created it must be eternal in existence, or there has to be a never ending source of energy.

Lawrence Krauss
Lawrence Krauss Explains How You Get A Universe From Nothing

Postulates a universe created from nothing. But his nothing turns out to be something.
About 9 minutes into the video states that Hubble discovered that the universe was expanding away from us in all directions.

Then about 37 minutes into the video he states the universe is flat. That being the case it is not expanding away from us in all directions.

To me that means he contradicts himself and Hubble.

Later he tells us the universe is either curved, flat, or round. Then stating that a flat universe is the only one that could be a zero energy universe and start from his nothing. About 38 minutes into the video.

From what I can determine from listening to the video and reading about his book he qualifies nothingness, though, to mean “empty space,” and then he fills that “empty space” with matter and antimatter ruled by the laws of quantum physics.

Tangle writes:

But if I could explain it too you, you would not be able to understand it but would reject it because it does not conform to your beliefs.

What I have referenced above has nothing to do with what I believe. It only has to do with what physicist has had to say.

Did I misunderstand what they said? If so please explain where I fell overboard.

Tangle writes:

The first law of thermodynamics says matter/energy cannot come from nothing. Therefore, the universe itself could not have formed naturally

Yes that is what I said so that makes what I said and your source in agreement.

Tangle writes:

Brown, Walt, 1995. In the beginning: Compelling evidence for creation and the Flood.

Yes I have read all about Walt Browns hydroplate theory and I don't think any more about his theory that I do Ellen G. White's theory. They are both a bunch of garbage and not related to what the Hebrew Bible teaches.

So when you are talking to me you are not talking to someone who believes in a young universe. In fact science guess of 13 + billion years old is way off from how old the universe is.

According to science energy has to have existed for eternity past as it can not be created, according to the laws of physics. So there has to be an endless energy supply for the universe and us to exist. If you disagree give me your reasoning and don't give me the excuse it is above your pay grade. You have common sense and an education and should be able to make those kinds of decisions simply by looking at the facts.

Tangle writes:

Formation of the universe from nothing need not violate conservation of energy.

What does conservation of energy have to do with the creation of the universe?

Creating the universe from no thing would have the problem of creating energy which can not be done according to the laws of physics.

Tangle writes:

The gravitational potential energy of a gravitational field is a negative energy. When all the gravitational potential energy is added to all the other energy in the universe, it might sum to zero

Yes Guth did put forth a zero energy universe. How many scientist agreed with him? Krauss also puts forth a zero energy universe. But states that universe would be a flat universe.

According to Hubble's discovery that the universe was expanding from us in all directions disagrees with them as that requires a closed universe.

So observations require the universe to be a closed system which had a beginning to exist from an absence of anything.

There would be no energy, branes, fluctuations, or vacuum, for anything to pop into existence in to be the beginning of the universe.

Now if you disagree with anything I have said above would you take time to copy and paste the entire message in a reply and underneath the parts you disagree with insert your comments starting with your name so I won't get confused about what you are answering.

God Bless,


"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 95 by Tangle, posted 06-19-2020 3:32 AM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 97 by Tangle, posted 06-19-2020 3:16 PM ICANT has responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 7945
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 3.1


Message 97 of 163 (877654)
06-19-2020 3:16 PM
Reply to: Message 96 by ICANT
06-19-2020 3:00 PM


Re: Tangles Comment
ICANT writes:

I got into the study of Calculus and decided I would never need it and went no further with it.

Calculus is age 16 maths and you didn't even manage that. Now you're trying to lecture us in cosmological physics. Why should anyone listen to a word you say?


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 96 by ICANT, posted 06-19-2020 3:00 PM ICANT has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 99 by ICANT, posted 06-19-2020 3:31 PM Tangle has responded

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6384
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 98 of 163 (877655)
06-19-2020 3:16 PM
Reply to: Message 94 by AZPaul3
06-18-2020 11:58 PM


Re: Tangles Comment
Hi AZ,

AZPaul writes:

But not far enough to understand how/why science limits mathematics.

Science does not limit numbers. They are limitless. Science does limit the minds that insert the numbers into formulas the mind makes from their assumptions.

AZPaul writes:

The "singularity" is not a real thing.

I thought I pointed out that singularity was a place where the math does not work as it becomes useless. I did not try to give the reasons the math does not work.

AZPaul writes:

Entropy as we know it applies only to this, our visible, universe.

Actually Stephen Hawking said the beginning of this universe would be governed by the laws of Physics in his lecture of "The Beginning of Time". Found here: The Beginning of TIme

God Bless,


"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 94 by AZPaul3, posted 06-18-2020 11:58 PM AZPaul3 has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 102 by AZPaul3, posted 06-19-2020 4:47 PM ICANT has responded

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6384
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 99 of 163 (877656)
06-19-2020 3:31 PM
Reply to: Message 97 by Tangle
06-19-2020 3:16 PM


Re: Tangles Comment
Hi Tangle,

Tangle writes:

Calculus is age 16 maths and you didn't even manage that. Now you're trying to lecture us in cosmological physics. Why should anyone listen to a word you say?

Actually I was 12 at the time.

I am not trying to lecture you on anything. If I was I would be sticking to the Bible.

What I have done is presented quotes from Physics and pointed out reasons that some of their conclusions is not a possibility.

I asked you and anyone else on this website to either straighten me out on my understanding of what they have said and the places they contradict themselves.

That does not seem to me to be a hard thing to do.

But jumping up on your soap box and talking down to me like I have no education when the lowest grade I ever got in school was a B and I only got one of them in 16 years of schooling, is not going to cut it.

I have to explain the Bible and answer question of high school and college students in simple words so don't let my simple questions stump you. I gave you a very lengthy post and ask you to point out my short comings. And this message is all you are going to comment on.

Don't waste my time.

God Bless,


"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 97 by Tangle, posted 06-19-2020 3:16 PM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 100 by Tangle, posted 06-19-2020 4:09 PM ICANT has responded
 Message 101 by ringo, posted 06-19-2020 4:32 PM ICANT has responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 7945
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 3.1


Message 100 of 163 (877657)
06-19-2020 4:09 PM
Reply to: Message 99 by ICANT
06-19-2020 3:31 PM


Re: Tangles Comment
ICANT writes:

Actually I was 12 at the time.

Right so you didn't understand calculus at the age of 12. Probably not at 10 either. Or 8. But actually, not at any age at all, yet you think you can talk about big physics. And write a book on it too!

Actually what you do is read physics explainers and cherry pick from it. It's fake physics.

But jumping up on your soap box and talking down to me like I have no education when the lowest grade I ever got in school was a B and I only got one of them in 16 years of schooling, is not going to cut it.

I'm afraid it does cut it and you know it. You have no post school education at all do you? You wouldn't know where to start if you were presented with a real physics problem. And, as it happens neither would I, but at least I know that I'm not qualified to argue the subject and that skim reading half understood pop physics will not make me able.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 99 by ICANT, posted 06-19-2020 3:31 PM ICANT has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 109 by ICANT, posted 06-20-2020 4:16 PM Tangle has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 18793
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.1


(1)
Message 101 of 163 (877661)
06-19-2020 4:32 PM
Reply to: Message 99 by ICANT
06-19-2020 3:31 PM


Re: Tangles Comment
ICANT writes:

I asked you and anyone else on this website to either straighten me out on my understanding of what they have said and the places they contradict themselves.

That does not seem to me to be a hard thing to do.


We can explain to each other where you go wrong but nobody can explain it to you because you can't see past your huge ego.

"I'm Fallen and I can't get up!"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 99 by ICANT, posted 06-19-2020 3:31 PM ICANT has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 104 by ICANT, posted 06-20-2020 11:21 AM ringo has responded

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 5365
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 4.4


Message 102 of 163 (877662)
06-19-2020 4:47 PM
Reply to: Message 98 by ICANT
06-19-2020 3:16 PM


Re: Tangles Comment
Science does not limit numbers. They are limitless.

This has nothing to do with this discussion.

Science limits the mathematics that can be used. The "numbers" I refer to are the formulae. The equations of physics. The models physics builds from observation.

You say you know enough math to make the numbers say anything you want. But, science limits the mathematics. No matter how much you may fiddle your numbers and want there to be 12 eggs you are strictly limited to 4 if the science says there are only 4.

Actually Stephen Hawking said the beginning of this universe would be governed by the laws of Physics

That is right. And that includes entropy. And that is limited, as are all the laws of this universe as far as we can tell, to operating in this our visible universe.

And all that means that this our visible universe had a beginning some 13.8 billion years ago and no amount of misapplication of those laws is going to change that fact.

No one knows what happened or what systems operated prior to the planck time (10-44)

Edited by AZPaul3, : No reason given.


Factio Republicana delenda est.
I am antifa.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 98 by ICANT, posted 06-19-2020 3:16 PM ICANT has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 103 by ICANT, posted 06-20-2020 11:16 AM AZPaul3 has responded

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6384
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 103 of 163 (877690)
06-20-2020 11:16 AM
Reply to: Message 102 by AZPaul3
06-19-2020 4:47 PM


Re: Tangles Comment
Hi AZ,

AZPaul3 writes:

Science limits the mathematics that can be used.


Are you sure the scientist and the facts are not what limits the numbers.

AZ writes:

I refer to are the formulae.

Formulae's are created by scientist and mathematicians according to their assumptions.

AZ writes:

No matter how much you may fiddle your numbers and want there to be 12 eggs you are strictly limited to 4 if the science says there are only 4.

Science has nothing to do with there only being 4 eggs in the basket if you only put 4 eggs in the basket. The fact that there is 4 eggs in the basket determines how many eggs are in the basket.

AZ writes:

That is right. And that includes entropy. And that is limited, as are all the laws of this universe as far as we can tell, to operating in this our visible universe.

Read his statement carefully. He says the beginning of the universe will be controlled by the law of Physics. That means the laws of Physics was in effect before there was any energy because that energy would be controlled by the laws of Physics.

Which would mean that the energy used to create the universe had to be created. Which the laws of Physics says can not happen.

AZ writes:

No one knows what happened or what systems operated prior to the planck time (10-44)

Do we not know or just refuse to accept the facts.

We know one thing.

There had to be existence and in that existence there had to be enough energy to create the universe we have today, according to the laws of Physics. "Energy can not be created or destroyed."

God Bless,


"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 102 by AZPaul3, posted 06-19-2020 4:47 PM AZPaul3 has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 105 by Phat, posted 06-20-2020 11:22 AM ICANT has acknowledged this reply
 Message 108 by AZPaul3, posted 06-20-2020 12:50 PM ICANT has responded

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6384
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 104 of 163 (877691)
06-20-2020 11:21 AM
Reply to: Message 101 by ringo
06-19-2020 4:32 PM


Re: Tangles Comment
Hi ringo,

ringo writes:

We can explain to each other where you go wrong but nobody can explain it to you because you can't see past your huge ego.

Lets start small and see if you can help.

The laws of Physics says energy can not be created or destroyed.

I believe that says energy can not be created or destroyed.
Since energy can not be created or destroyed it has to have existed eternally in the past.
Where is my belief wrong.

God Bless,


"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 101 by ringo, posted 06-19-2020 4:32 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 106 by Phat, posted 06-20-2020 11:25 AM ICANT has responded
 Message 107 by ringo, posted 06-20-2020 12:22 PM ICANT has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 14648
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 105 of 163 (877692)
06-20-2020 11:22 AM
Reply to: Message 103 by ICANT
06-20-2020 11:16 AM


Re: Tangles Comment
Adding my 2 cents:

jar always argues that the Content is preferable and that the SOURCE is irrelevant.

My argument is that both SOURCE and CONTENT are valuable and indeed necessary.. One cannot have math if nothing existed at one time. (or before time, technically) And AZ, I know you have a rational mind and that you and the critical thinkers here never use God as an initial premise. I wont fault you for that, but I dont want you ridiculing those of us who DO believe that.

And ICANT, I hope that your knee is doing better. I can only imagine what I will feel like if God grants me another 25 years. Im 60 now and I realize that getting old is not for sissies.


“The only way I know to drive out evil from the country is by the constructive method of filling it with good.”Calvin Coolidge
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
“As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.”-RC Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith

- You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do.
Anne Lamott
I Have Strong Arguments Which I Cant Say To You~CG

This message is a reply to:
 Message 103 by ICANT, posted 06-20-2020 11:16 AM ICANT has acknowledged this reply

  
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