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Author Topic:   Peanut Gallery Comments on Great Debate
Phat
Member
Posts: 14132
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 106 of 163 (877693)
06-20-2020 11:25 AM
Reply to: Message 104 by ICANT
06-20-2020 11:21 AM


Re: Tangles Comment
ICANT writes:

The laws of Physics says energy can not be created or destroyed.

I believe that says energy can not be created or destroyed.
Since energy can not be created or destroyed it has to have existed eternally in the past.
Where is my belief wrong.


ringo and I have argued before. (Lots of times! ) He seems to ask "why not in the beginning, math? or...in the beginning chemicals...

I maintain that its Mind Over Matter. Matter coming before Mind is illogical. Mind is always over matter.

And if you dont mind, than perhaps it does not matter!


“The only way I know to drive out evil from the country is by the constructive method of filling it with good.”Calvin Coolidge
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
“As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.”-RC Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith

- You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do.
Anne Lamott
I Have Strong Arguments Which I Cant Say To You~CG

This message is a reply to:
 Message 104 by ICANT, posted 06-20-2020 11:21 AM ICANT has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 112 by ICANT, posted 06-20-2020 4:59 PM Phat has not yet responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 18322
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.8


Message 107 of 163 (877697)
06-20-2020 12:22 PM
Reply to: Message 104 by ICANT
06-20-2020 11:21 AM


Re: Tangles Comment
ICANT writes:

Since energy can not be created or destroyed it has to have existed eternally in the past.
Where is my belief wrong.


"Eternally" is not a scientific idea. We don't know what happened "before" the Big Bang because our notion of time began at the Big Bang.

"I'm Fallen and I can't get up!"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 104 by ICANT, posted 06-20-2020 11:21 AM ICANT has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 110 by ICANT, posted 06-20-2020 4:39 PM ringo has responded

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 5118
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 3.1


Message 108 of 163 (877702)
06-20-2020 12:50 PM
Reply to: Message 103 by ICANT
06-20-2020 11:16 AM


Re: Tangles Comment
Are you sure the scientist and the facts are not what limits the numbers.

Heavy on the facts. That is what "the science" refers to. That is what the science is.

The science limits the mathematics that can be used in our models.

Formulae's are created by scientist and mathematicians according to their assumptions.

Correction ... according to their observations.

Assumptions are very rarely used and then only logically justifyable assumptions are used that are consistent with the observations and do not violate known laws or facts. Even then the discipline will scrutinize those assumptions for weaknesses or self-serving biases in peer review.

Science has nothing to do with there only being 4 eggs in the basket if you only put 4 eggs in the basket. The fact that there is 4 eggs in the basket determines how many eggs are in the basket.

Hypothesis: There are 12 eggs in the basket.
Test and observation: Collect data. Count the eggs.
Facts determined: There are 4 eggs in the basket.
Conclusion: The hypothesis is disproved. There are 4 eggs in the basket.

Science.

Read his statement carefully. He says the beginning of the universe will be controlled by the law of Physics. That means the laws of Physics was in effect before there was any energy because that energy would be controlled by the laws of Physics.

Yes, Read his statement. The beginning of the universe will be controlled by the Physics. Not by majik. And not even the great Dr. Hawking can tell us what that physics was because *our* laws of physics apply *ONLY* inside this universe.

No one can say that an enormous concentration of energy prior to 10-44 can not have been achieved. No one knows how the physics prior to 10-44 operated.

No one knows what happened or what systems operated prior to the planck time (10-44)

Do we not know or just refuse to accept the facts.

What "facts" would those be?

There had to be existence and in that existence there had to be enough energy to create the universe we have today, according to the laws of Physics. "Energy can not be created or destroyed."

That restriction applies only to our universe, not prior.

Energy can not be created or destroyed in our universe. All bets are off when speaking otherwise.

Despite the usual catechism you and I both can reasonably speculate there had to have been a "before" 10-44. But no one, Reverend, no one can put any embellishment or restriction on what physics operated then and how. Any of the laws of physics we have devised can only be said to operate in this universe, not "before".

Edited by AZPaul3, : No reason given.


Factio Republicana delenda est.
I am antifa.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 103 by ICANT, posted 06-20-2020 11:16 AM ICANT has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 122 by ICANT, posted 06-21-2020 4:25 PM AZPaul3 has acknowledged this reply

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6311
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 109 of 163 (877710)
06-20-2020 4:16 PM
Reply to: Message 100 by Tangle
06-19-2020 4:09 PM


Re: Tangles Comment
Hi Tangle,

Tangle writes:

Right so you didn't understand calculus at the age of 12.

The Professor thought I did. I got perfect marks.

Tangle writes:

Actually what you do is read physics explainers and cherry pick from it. It's fake physics.

Are you saying Hawking and Krauss are fakes? That is who I have been quoting.

Tangle writes:

I know that I'm not qualified to argue the subject and that skim reading half understood pop physics will not make me able.

So if you don't know enough to argue the subject how do you know I am wrong or the people I am quoting is wrong.

3 questions:

1. Is the following quote accurate?

quote:
The First Law of Thermodynamics
The first law of thermodynamics, also known as Law of Conservation of Energy, states that energy can neither be created nor destroyed; energy can only be transferred or changed from one form to another. For example, turning on a light would seem to produce energy; however, it is electrical energy that is converted.
The Laws of Thermodynamics | Boundless Chemistry

2. Is the following quote accurate?

quote:
The Second Law of Thermodynamics
The second law of thermodynamics says that the entropy of any isolated system always increases. Isolated systems spontaneously evolve towards thermal equilibrium—the state of maximum entropy of the system. More simply put: the entropy of the universe (the ultimate isolated system) only increases and never decreases.
The Laws of Thermodynamics | Boundless Chemistry

3. Provided that energy can not be created where did the energy that produced trillions of degrees heat the you and I have been told that existed at T=10up>-44come from?

quote:
scientists have deduced the temperature at the Planck time, which is 10 million trillion trillion trillionths of a second. At that instant, the temperature was 100 million trillion trillion kelvins (180 million trillion trillion degrees Fahrenheit).
The Temperature of the Universe During the Big Bang

God Bless,

Edited by ICANT, : No reason given.


"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 100 by Tangle, posted 06-19-2020 4:09 PM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 111 by Tangle, posted 06-20-2020 4:40 PM ICANT has responded

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6311
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 110 of 163 (877712)
06-20-2020 4:39 PM
Reply to: Message 107 by ringo
06-20-2020 12:22 PM


Re: Tangles Comment
Hi ringo,

ringo writes:

"Eternally" is not a scientific idea.

It was to Einstein. He believed the universe was static and had always existed, until it was discovered it was expanding. An expanding universe could not exist as it would be a dead universe by now.

That brings us to the problem of where did the energy come from that produced the heat of trillions of degrees k at T=10up>-44?

The laws of Physics says that energy can not be created.

God Bless,

Edited by ICANT, : No reason given.


"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 107 by ringo, posted 06-20-2020 12:22 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 115 by ringo, posted 06-21-2020 9:35 AM ICANT has responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 7710
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.8


Message 111 of 163 (877713)
06-20-2020 4:40 PM
Reply to: Message 109 by ICANT
06-20-2020 4:16 PM


Re: Tangles Comment
ICANT writes:

The Professor thought I did. I got perfect marks.

Do you have any post-school Physics or maths education at all?

Are you saying Hawking and Krauss are fakes?

I'm saying that you are a fake, doing the usual christian thing of quote mining real scientists.

So if you don't know enough to argue the subject how do you know I am wrong

Because you have no education in the subject matter that you're preaching and quote mining those that have.

Satan curse,


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 109 by ICANT, posted 06-20-2020 4:16 PM ICANT has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 113 by ICANT, posted 06-20-2020 5:07 PM Tangle has responded

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6311
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 112 of 163 (877716)
06-20-2020 4:59 PM
Reply to: Message 106 by Phat
06-20-2020 11:25 AM


Re: Tangles Comment
Hi Phat,

Phat writes:

ringo and I have argued before. (Lots of times! ) He seems to ask "why not in the beginning, math? or...in the beginning chemicals...

Where would the math come from if there was no human?

Where would the chemicals come from if there was no chemicals.

Remember they keep telling us there was nothing there as there is nothing outside of the universe.

Since there is nothing there a big assumption must be made that there was something was there without believing there was something there. At least Krauss try's to say nothing means something.

God Bless,


"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 106 by Phat, posted 06-20-2020 11:25 AM Phat has not yet responded

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6311
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 113 of 163 (877717)
06-20-2020 5:07 PM
Reply to: Message 111 by Tangle
06-20-2020 4:40 PM


Re: Tangles Comment
Hi Tangle,

Tangle writes:

Do you have any post-school Physics or maths education at all?

I only went to school for 16 years. I took no post graduate classes except in Greek and Hebrew.

Now would you like to get to the rest of Message 109 or do you intend to ignore questions and the quotes as usual.

Talk about cherry picking, you take the cake.

God Bless,


"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 111 by Tangle, posted 06-20-2020 4:40 PM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 114 by Tangle, posted 06-20-2020 5:36 PM ICANT has responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 7710
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.8


(1)
Message 114 of 163 (877720)
06-20-2020 5:36 PM
Reply to: Message 113 by ICANT
06-20-2020 5:07 PM


Re: Tangles Comment
ICANT writes:

I only went to school for 16 years. I took no post graduate classes except in Greek and Hebrew

And yet you think you can have an opinion on something that very few people in the world are capable of understanding?

So much so that you think you can write a book about it!

There's a common trait amongst your kind of christian, you think you can have an opinion about science the way you can have an opinion about the bible. Faith was the master of this hubris, an absolute expert in every science from palaeontology, microbiology, archaeology, geology, radiometry - whatever, you name it, if it had a tangential touch on her wacky beliefs she was an armchair expert. Despite never studying anything, ever.

This kind of cluelessness combined with absolutely certainty of your own abilities is frightening. No progress can be made when people with your level of real ignorance hold sway over people with even more credulity.

Just out of interest, do you hold a passport?


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 113 by ICANT, posted 06-20-2020 5:07 PM ICANT has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 119 by ICANT, posted 06-21-2020 3:21 PM Tangle has responded
 Message 120 by ICANT, posted 06-21-2020 3:44 PM Tangle has not yet responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 18322
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.8


Message 115 of 163 (877736)
06-21-2020 9:35 AM
Reply to: Message 110 by ICANT
06-20-2020 4:39 PM


Re: Tangles Comment
ICANT writes:

ringo writes:

"Eternally" is not a scientific idea.


It was to Einstein. He believed the universe was static and had always existed, until it was discovered it was expanding.

It was a "belief" to Einstein, as you say yourself. It was not supported by science.

ICANT writes:

That brings us to the problem of where did the energy come from that produced the heat of trillions of degrees k at T=-44?


Science is all about solving problems. You 've been told some of tge tentative solutions.

"I'm Fallen and I can't get up!"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 110 by ICANT, posted 06-20-2020 4:39 PM ICANT has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 116 by Phat, posted 06-21-2020 9:39 AM ringo has responded
 Message 118 by ICANT, posted 06-21-2020 3:06 PM ringo has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 14132
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 116 of 163 (877737)
06-21-2020 9:39 AM
Reply to: Message 115 by ringo
06-21-2020 9:35 AM


Re: Tangles Comment
It was a "belief" to Einstein, as you say yourself. It was not supported by science.
Must everything be supported by scieence?
Can God in any way be supported by science?
Its your turn now. Consider that my beliefs may not necessarily be a fantasy.
Consider that God could exist. Now what?

“The only way I know to drive out evil from the country is by the constructive method of filling it with good.”Calvin Coolidge
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
“As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.”-RC Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith

- You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do.
Anne Lamott
I Have Strong Arguments Which I Cant Say To You~CG

This message is a reply to:
 Message 115 by ringo, posted 06-21-2020 9:35 AM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 117 by ringo, posted 06-21-2020 9:49 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply
 Message 121 by ICANT, posted 06-21-2020 3:52 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 18322
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.8


Message 117 of 163 (877740)
06-21-2020 9:49 AM
Reply to: Message 116 by Phat
06-21-2020 9:39 AM


Re: Tangles Comment
Phat writes:

Must everything be supported by scieence?


ICANT is making scientific claims. They definitely must be supported by science - and he claimed that they were.

Phat writes:

Can God in any way be supported by science?


If he could, wouldn't somebody have done it by now? Yet he's still in the same scientific boat as the Tooth Fairy.

Phat writes:

Its your turn now. Consider that my beliefs may not necessarily be a fantasy.
Consider that God could exist. Now what?


As I keep telling you over and over and over and over and over and over again, I HAVE considered that.

"I'm Fallen and I can't get up!"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 116 by Phat, posted 06-21-2020 9:39 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6311
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 118 of 163 (877768)
06-21-2020 3:06 PM
Reply to: Message 115 by ringo
06-21-2020 9:35 AM


Re: Tangles Comment
Hi ringo,

ringo writes:

It was a "belief" to Einstein, as you say yourself. It was not supported by science.

But prior to Hubble discovering that the universe was expanding Einstein's belief was the scientific view.

Give me one scientist that believed the universe had a beginning to exist prior to Hubble's discovery?

I can't find one.

ringo writes:

Science is all about solving problems. You 've been told some of tge tentative solutions.

No one has addressed where the energy came from that caused the trillions of degrees at T=10up>-44 came from.

I have read about the Hartly/Hawking instanton solution. Which would require a vacuum for the instanton to pop into existence in. Which never caught on and very few scientist supported.

I have read about string theory that requires a vacuum for the brans to appear in and bang together. Which is still not accepted.

I have read about the bounce theory where the universe existed and then collapsed and recreated itself. The proplem with that is the universe would be eternal in existence which is impossible according to the laws of Physics. The universe would be dead today and we would not exist.

I have read about there being an eternal unlimited energy source that produced the universe we see today, and everything in it.

The last one is the most logical to me.

Now if you know of any evidence I could examine that supports a better solution to the problem of where all that energy came from I would like to read about it.

God Bless,

Edited by ICANT, : No reason given.


"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 115 by ringo, posted 06-21-2020 9:35 AM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 124 by AZPaul3, posted 06-21-2020 6:39 PM ICANT has responded
 Message 125 by ringo, posted 06-21-2020 9:26 PM ICANT has responded

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6311
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 119 of 163 (877769)
06-21-2020 3:21 PM
Reply to: Message 114 by Tangle
06-20-2020 5:36 PM


Re: Tangles Comment
Hi Tangle,

Tangle writes:

And yet you think you can have an opinion on something

Everyone has an opinion, even you.

Tangle writes:

So much so that you think you can write a book about it!

My book will present the only logical solution to all the problems of the beginning to exist of the universe.

According to the laws of Physics energy can not be created.

If energy can not be created there has to be an eternal never ending source of energy for the universe to exist today. The universe does exist.

Tangle writes:

There's a common trait amongst your kind of christian, you think you can have an opinion about science

I don't think I can have an opinion, I know I can. It may be wrong but I can have an opinion.

You have an opinion and I believe you are wrong, just as you believe I am wrong.

So instead of showing your ignorance by telling me how stupid I am you could answer my questions I asked and show me that my opinion is wrong.

God Bless,


"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 114 by Tangle, posted 06-20-2020 5:36 PM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 123 by Tangle, posted 06-21-2020 4:55 PM ICANT has acknowledged this reply

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6311
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 120 of 163 (877772)
06-21-2020 3:44 PM
Reply to: Message 114 by Tangle
06-20-2020 5:36 PM


Re: Tangles Comment
Hi Tangle,

Here are the 3 questions I asked you earlier, and I will add 1 more at the beginning. In the numbered questions #1 and #2 are simple yes or no questions. #3 requires your opinion, or any evidence you know of.

How many years did you go to school and what grades did you get?

Message 109

quote:
3 questions:
1. Is the following quote accurate?
quote:
The First Law of Thermodynamics
The first law of thermodynamics, also known as Law of Conservation of Energy, states that energy can neither be created nor destroyed; energy can only be transferred or changed from one form to another. For example, turning on a light would seem to produce energy; however, it is electrical energy that is converted.
The Laws of Thermodynamics | Boundless Chemistry
2. Is the following quote accurate?
quote:
The Second Law of Thermodynamics
The second law of thermodynamics says that the entropy of any isolated system always increases. Isolated systems spontaneously evolve towards thermal equilibrium—the state of maximum entropy of the system. More simply put: the entropy of the universe (the ultimate isolated system) only increases and never decreases.
The Laws of Thermodynamics | Boundless Chemistry
3. Provided that energy can not be created where did the energy that produced trillions of degrees heat the you and I have been told that existed at T=10up>-44come from?
quote:
scientists have deduced the temperature at the Planck time, which is 10 million trillion trillion trillionths of a second. At that instant, the temperature was 100 million trillion trillion kelvins (180 million trillion trillion degrees Fahrenheit).
The Temperature of the Universe During the Big Bang

When you address these questions I will respond to your posts but until then I will ignore any post you make.

God Bless,

Edited by ICANT, : No reason given.


"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 114 by Tangle, posted 06-20-2020 5:36 PM Tangle has not yet responded

  
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