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Author Topic:   Being offended.
herebedragons
Member
Posts: 1513
From: Michigan
Joined: 11-22-2009


Message 66 of 381 (845621)
12-17-2018 10:29 PM
Reply to: Message 35 by riVeRraT
12-16-2018 8:36 PM


Re: Still missing the point.
When I said "share it with everyone" all I meant was God's Love. I never said I was going around trying to convince people to believe in Jesus so they can go to heaven.

So let me get this straight... people were offended that you were feeding the poor, helping the sick, caring for those most in need, giving them clothes, digging wells, building schools, etc... ?? That seems odd. Can you think of any reason they would be offended by those things? Maybe there was some other way you were sharing "God's love"?

There even thise that try to do things for the "greater good" in 3rd wolrd countries and find themselves offending people.

Maybe they were not being sensitive to the local culture and trying to push Western values on them. The "greater good" doesn't mean turning them into something they are not.

You will never be able to be non-offensive, change my mind.

You cannot control how others react to you. All you can do is to consider the other person more important than yourself and try to be sensitive to their needs and what is important to them. And share God's love by doing right.

HBD


Whoever calls me ignorant shares my own opinion. Sorrowfully and tacitly I recognize my ignorance, when I consider how much I lack of what my mind in its craving for knowledge is sighing for... I console myself with the consideration that this belongs to our common nature. - Francesco Petrarca

"Nothing is easier than to persuade people who want to be persuaded and already believe." - another Petrarca gem.

Ignorance is a most formidable opponent rivaled only by arrogance; but when the two join forces, one is all but invincible.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 35 by riVeRraT, posted 12-16-2018 8:36 PM riVeRraT has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 102 by riVeRraT, posted 12-18-2018 11:39 PM herebedragons has responded

  
herebedragons
Member
Posts: 1513
From: Michigan
Joined: 11-22-2009


Message 67 of 381 (845622)
12-17-2018 10:37 PM
Reply to: Message 62 by JoeT
12-17-2018 5:05 PM


Re: Respectful Offense
Am I missing something here?

Welcome, and yes, this is Faith's basic modus operandi. Anything she disagrees with is evil, stupid, hateful, etc... I would like to say that underneath all that animosity she is basically a good person, but there is just nothing I have seen in hundreds of conversations with her that would lend support to that statement.

HBD


Whoever calls me ignorant shares my own opinion. Sorrowfully and tacitly I recognize my ignorance, when I consider how much I lack of what my mind in its craving for knowledge is sighing for... I console myself with the consideration that this belongs to our common nature. - Francesco Petrarca

"Nothing is easier than to persuade people who want to be persuaded and already believe." - another Petrarca gem.

Ignorance is a most formidable opponent rivaled only by arrogance; but when the two join forces, one is all but invincible.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 62 by JoeT, posted 12-17-2018 5:05 PM JoeT has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 87 by Faith, posted 12-18-2018 6:33 PM herebedragons has not yet responded

  
herebedragons
Member
Posts: 1513
From: Michigan
Joined: 11-22-2009


Message 68 of 381 (845623)
12-17-2018 11:00 PM
Reply to: Message 64 by GDR
12-17-2018 7:27 PM


Re: Respectful Offense
Funny idea of love.

I think this perspective of hers comes from the idea that everything is God's will. So if there are poor or other undesirables it is because God wills it and they serve a divine purpose. And if they are going to be saved or healed or fed, it will happen regardless of what we do, since God wills it. So there is just no need to take risks because God is in control and whatever he wants to happen will happen. I think this is the same reason why so many evangelicals reject climate change... God is in control of the environment, not man. Of course, I personally reject this theology as non-Biblical, corrupt and against human decency.

Everything you said in Message 52 was spot on, IMHO. In addition, we should be addressing the issues that cause people to flee their homelands. I can't imagine life being so horrible that you would want to pack up and walk several thousand miles to an unknown, unfriendly land. But instead of working to fix these problems, we have actually either caused many of the problems or exacerbated them.

The christian right have sold their souls to the devil in order to achieve their political agenda and it is very discouraging. It's good to hear a fellow Christian who has not lost the main point.

HBD


Whoever calls me ignorant shares my own opinion. Sorrowfully and tacitly I recognize my ignorance, when I consider how much I lack of what my mind in its craving for knowledge is sighing for... I console myself with the consideration that this belongs to our common nature. - Francesco Petrarca

"Nothing is easier than to persuade people who want to be persuaded and already believe." - another Petrarca gem.

Ignorance is a most formidable opponent rivaled only by arrogance; but when the two join forces, one is all but invincible.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 64 by GDR, posted 12-17-2018 7:27 PM GDR has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 70 by Faith, posted 12-18-2018 4:04 AM herebedragons has responded

  
herebedragons
Member
Posts: 1513
From: Michigan
Joined: 11-22-2009


Message 71 of 381 (845631)
12-18-2018 8:28 AM
Reply to: Message 70 by Faith
12-18-2018 4:04 AM


Re: Respectful Offense
Oh nonsense.

What is it then, Faith? I am legitimately trying to understand how "Biblical Christians" can take the types of positions you take. I find these ideas to be against everything I understand Christianity to be about and I am trying to understand how you justify your position Biblically. Obviously there is some way you justify it and my explanation seems reasonable. But I wonder... how is fear Biblical? How is trying to protect what's yours Biblical? I sincerely don't get it.

HBD


Whoever calls me ignorant shares my own opinion. Sorrowfully and tacitly I recognize my ignorance, when I consider how much I lack of what my mind in its craving for knowledge is sighing for... I console myself with the consideration that this belongs to our common nature. - Francesco Petrarca

"Nothing is easier than to persuade people who want to be persuaded and already believe." - another Petrarca gem.

Ignorance is a most formidable opponent rivaled only by arrogance; but when the two join forces, one is all but invincible.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 70 by Faith, posted 12-18-2018 4:04 AM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 83 by Faith, posted 12-18-2018 6:19 PM herebedragons has responded

  
herebedragons
Member
Posts: 1513
From: Michigan
Joined: 11-22-2009


Message 72 of 381 (845632)
12-18-2018 8:36 AM
Reply to: Message 69 by Dr Adequate
12-17-2018 11:21 PM


Re: Respectful Offense
Very well said, Dr. A. I find it very sad that an atheist has a better grip on what the Bible teaches than a "TRUE Biblical Christian."

Of course, I'm sure Faith doesn't see it that way...

HBD


Whoever calls me ignorant shares my own opinion. Sorrowfully and tacitly I recognize my ignorance, when I consider how much I lack of what my mind in its craving for knowledge is sighing for... I console myself with the consideration that this belongs to our common nature. - Francesco Petrarca

"Nothing is easier than to persuade people who want to be persuaded and already believe." - another Petrarca gem.

Ignorance is a most formidable opponent rivaled only by arrogance; but when the two join forces, one is all but invincible.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 69 by Dr Adequate, posted 12-17-2018 11:21 PM Dr Adequate has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 73 by Thugpreacha, posted 12-18-2018 9:47 AM herebedragons has not yet responded
 Message 82 by Faith, posted 12-18-2018 6:14 PM herebedragons has not yet responded
 Message 104 by riVeRraT, posted 12-18-2018 11:45 PM herebedragons has not yet responded

  
herebedragons
Member
Posts: 1513
From: Michigan
Joined: 11-22-2009


(3)
Message 122 of 381 (845762)
12-20-2018 10:02 AM
Reply to: Message 83 by Faith
12-18-2018 6:19 PM


Re: Respectful Offense
I don't know what kind of Christian environment your church creates, but fear of Hell is a pretty healthy starting place for becoming a believer,

Well... we don't try to scare people into heaven. Turns out it's not really very effective. Sure, maybe you can scare people into joining the club, but it doesn't do much to change their hearts - especially when fear of hell is coupled with "just believe the right doctrines, say the salvation prayer, join the club and your good to go." This false message is why there are so many Christians who are Christians only in name and have nothing in common with the teachings of Jesus.

we are to know we are sinners and that sin deserves eternal punishment.

Sure... that is what "sharing God's love" means - telling people how despicable they are. The thing is, most people recognize the brokenness within themselves and don't really need to be told they don't measure up. They especially don't need to be told that by someone who is just as broken as they are (take the plank out of your own eye first). Instead, people need to know how following Jesus will help them, how he will change their life - for the good. When Jesus talked about the Kingdom of God, it was in the present tense. The Kingdom is here now - it's not pie-in-the-sky-in-the-sweet-by-and-by, it's now. The Kingdom is supposed to change people's lives in the here and now. That's what is important.

The thing is that the church has so bought into this "get out of hell free" mentality - that being a Christian is about saving you from hell and rewarding you with heavenly riches - that we have completely missed the point. Being a Christian is supposed to change your life; make you more Christ-like; make you more loving towards your fellow man. But, as a whole, I don't see that being a Christian really makes any difference. Christians, as a whole, are not more loving, more compassionate, more generous, more merciful, nothing that should set us apart from non-Christians. Why should anyone want to become a Christian? Just to believe that they have avoided hell?

They will know we are Christians because... we oppose abortion, we oppose gay marriage, we oppose immigration, we say "Merry Christmas", we share the good news that all people are condemned, we are Republicans, etc... NO!!!! They will know we are Christians because of our love for one another. Do you really think that God's love comes through in your messages here at EvC?

And then of course there is fear of God, and that can be serious fear.

Paul tells us we should approach the throne of grace with confidence. That we have not been given a spirit of fear, but of power. We are children of God, who is our heavenly father, who wants to give us good gifts - that is to give us life to the fullest.

It means we recognize that violating God's law has serious consequences, which leads us to avoid doing the things that bring them on.

If the reason you don't do bad things is because you fear being punished, you miss the entire point. The point is we do good things because they are good things. It has nothing to do with fear of punishment. All "bad things" can be put into one of two categories: they hurt out relationship with God or they hurt our relationship with others. We don't want to hurt others because we love them, not because of fear of punishment. Fear of punishment is the most shallow, selfish reason for not doing "bad things," and can do nothing to change your heart -what's inside. Instead, it opens the door to all types of misrepresentations of God's love. Such as this rant:

Faith writes:

Yes I gathered you've been stupidly supporting possible terrorists. Jesus does not teach us to expose our neighbors to terrorists. You are a complete idiot and you are not a follower of Jesus Christ who would never countenance such a wacked out idea of His love as yours. So are you like those crazy "Christians" who turned a church into a mosque out of a misguided idea of Jesus" love? It's really hatred. It's evil.
And yes the US has done a great deal for the suffering of the world. So far we've done it fairly sanely in order to preserve the means that make such help possible. Your methods would destroy those means. You are a blithering idiot GDR and you are NOT a follower of Jesus Christ. As for government corruptions it's been getting bad because of the Left and your crazy misreading of Jesus is a Leftist style insanity that will only add to the corruptions. I consider you an opponent of everything good in this world, Jesus' love above all.

Who would possibly see God's love in that message... other than you?

HBD


Whoever calls me ignorant shares my own opinion. Sorrowfully and tacitly I recognize my ignorance, when I consider how much I lack of what my mind in its craving for knowledge is sighing for... I console myself with the consideration that this belongs to our common nature. - Francesco Petrarca

"Nothing is easier than to persuade people who want to be persuaded and already believe." - another Petrarca gem.

Ignorance is a most formidable opponent rivaled only by arrogance; but when the two join forces, one is all but invincible.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 83 by Faith, posted 12-18-2018 6:19 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 124 by Faith, posted 12-20-2018 1:02 PM herebedragons has responded

  
herebedragons
Member
Posts: 1513
From: Michigan
Joined: 11-22-2009


(2)
Message 123 of 381 (845763)
12-20-2018 11:03 AM
Reply to: Message 102 by riVeRraT
12-18-2018 11:39 PM


Re: Still missing the point.
Some countries were not interested and offended we even suggested doing it. Those same people later agreed to it, but said they would build a $50,000 home for $800,000.

That does sound like "bad people" who probably wanted to profit from your charity. But I don't see how that is an example of PC gone wild. Sounds more like greed to me.

If your whole point is that PC has gotten out of control and everyone has their own thing that offend them and it is difficult to navigate today's PC landscape... then I mostly agree. Kind of a funny story that I think illustrates that. I worked with this black guy, named Eric, and one of my white co-workers, Steve, said something about "colored people". Well Eric gets offended (it was actually a pretty good natured exchange without any real offense being taken) and says "I ain't colored. What am I like blue or green or something?" Steve is like, "Oh sorry, African American." Eric: "What, I ain't African!" Steve: "I don't know what to call you people anymore." Eric: "I'm black." Steve: "You're not black, you're dark brown."

I think it can be difficult to keep up with all the things that offend people and all the sensitivities that people have against a particular label. But overall, PC is about being sensitive to other people's feelings and not putting labels on them that make them uncomfortable. That's not really a bad thing.

Yes, people should be less sensitive, but a lot of issues come about because of the negative association of a particular label. For example, I said that something was "retarded" and my son (9 or 10 yrs old) says "Dad, that's offensive." At first I was like - don't be ridiculous. But as I thought about it, I realized that the word does have a very negative connotation associated with it. And it really is an inappropriate word to use to describe something that you think is dumb. So I try not to use it. Why would people think that avoiding words that some people consider degrading is a bad thing to do?

I don't think it is my place to tell others what they should and should not be offended by. Like I said, labels can come with a significant stigma attached and if someone to whom that label is being applied believes that stigma is degrading, I shouldn't force that label on them.

Bottom line... People are free to choose what labels they find offensive, and out of respect, we should honor them and avoid offense. Of course, there are behavior and attitudes that need to be called out for what they are. For example, when someone displays racist and bigoted behavior, we should call it what it is. These are issues that are still serious problems in this country and someone may choose that they should use offensive language to call it out. So not only should you choose what offends you, but when it is appropriate to intentionally offend someone else - which will not be never.

quote:
Ask God to bless everyone who mistreats you. Ask him to bless them and not to curse them. When others are happy, be happy with them, and when they are sad, be sad. Be friendly with everyone. Don't be proud and feel that you know more than others. Make friends with ordinary people. Don't mistreat someone who has mistreated you. But try to earn the respect of others, and do your best to live at peace with everyone - Romans 12:14-18

We are called to live in peace and not mistreat others. How can you be friendly with everyone if you use offensive language?

HBD


Whoever calls me ignorant shares my own opinion. Sorrowfully and tacitly I recognize my ignorance, when I consider how much I lack of what my mind in its craving for knowledge is sighing for... I console myself with the consideration that this belongs to our common nature. - Francesco Petrarca

"Nothing is easier than to persuade people who want to be persuaded and already believe." - another Petrarca gem.

Ignorance is a most formidable opponent rivaled only by arrogance; but when the two join forces, one is all but invincible.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 102 by riVeRraT, posted 12-18-2018 11:39 PM riVeRraT has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 141 by riVeRraT, posted 12-21-2018 8:11 AM herebedragons has responded

  
herebedragons
Member
Posts: 1513
From: Michigan
Joined: 11-22-2009


(2)
Message 127 of 381 (845775)
12-20-2018 1:52 PM
Reply to: Message 124 by Faith
12-20-2018 1:02 PM


Re: Respectful Offense
Uh yeah but that really is a raving heresy and you don't know it. You are reducing the glorious gospel to something trivial and mundane, reducing the Kingdom of God to some kind of therapy. That's pernicious twaddle, HBD.

The gospel is the power of God to transform lives through love not through guilt, shame and manipulation. I didn't say that sin is a-okay, just ignore it and everything's good. But the point is that guilt and manipulation don't work.

I'm sorry you are in that kind of church.

I'm not. I grew up in a Baptist church with Calvinistic doctrines. I became very disenfranchised with the whole religious thing, I walked away from God and any sense of faith in my early teens. I could never put my finger on what the problem was, I guess it just seemed so fake. When I came back to church in my mid-twenties, I was very much committed and my life changed drastically, but there were still these nagging questions that I could not reconcile in my head. Through several circumstances, my wife and I left that church and started attending a Nazarene church. Nazarenes are of the Wesleyan branch and so have a significantly different perspective than Baptists. As I grew in that fellowship, things began to make sense; I began to find answers to those questions that nagged me for so long. Now I see the Calvinistic doctrines as thoroughly non-Biblical and actually dangerous to people's faith and the real meaning of being a Jesus follower.

So sure, from your tradition maybe my perspective is heresy, but it doesn't matter to me what you label me. I am answerable to God and my conscious. I am pretty sure I would have walked away from God and church again if I had stayed at that Baptist church or even if I had gone to another Baptist (or other Calvinist church). Not because my faith was weak, but because the Calvinistic doctrines are just flat out wrong and malevolent, in my estimation. So I believe God directed me to this church (for real, I have no idea why we started going there - we had no connections, it was just a unexplained feeling that it was where we were supposed to be). So I have no regrets (not that it is perfect - there are other people that go there ).

And besides, the Wesleyan tradition has just as long of a tradition as Calvinism and nothing I said is outside of orthodox Wesleyanism, so maybe you're the heretic. Or maybe we could just drop the nasty label...

HBD


Whoever calls me ignorant shares my own opinion. Sorrowfully and tacitly I recognize my ignorance, when I consider how much I lack of what my mind in its craving for knowledge is sighing for... I console myself with the consideration that this belongs to our common nature. - Francesco Petrarca

"Nothing is easier than to persuade people who want to be persuaded and already believe." - another Petrarca gem.

Ignorance is a most formidable opponent rivaled only by arrogance; but when the two join forces, one is all but invincible.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 124 by Faith, posted 12-20-2018 1:02 PM Faith has not yet responded

  
herebedragons
Member
Posts: 1513
From: Michigan
Joined: 11-22-2009


(2)
Message 152 of 381 (845823)
12-21-2018 10:14 AM
Reply to: Message 141 by riVeRraT
12-21-2018 8:11 AM


Re: Still missing the point.
offensivness can be very subjective and that is why we should never head down that road

Sure it is. But I think that misses my larger point, so I will be more direct about it.

At its core, PC is about injustice. Is injustice objective? Who gets to decide when someone is treated unjustly? From a legal perspective, our justice system compares perceived injustice to the values and laws associated with our Constitution. Violations of our laws and Constitution are ruled to be unjust (still a mostly subjective matter though).

But what about personal feelings of injustice? Unless there are legal challenges to these words or actions (such as burning a cross on someone's lawn) you are free to express yourself as you wish. But if you are engaging in behavior or speech that other people view as degrading or unjust, other people also have a right to speak out against it. If these people are using threats and violence against your use of racist comments, then they are committing injustice and so are in the wrong. But if people are calling your comments unjust, insensitive or degrading, that's also their right to do so.

You have been short on examples of what types of offenses you think are being unfairly victimized by the PC crowd. But based on a brief comment you made this morning, an example may be that you want to call Islam a dangerous and evil religion and ban Muslims from entering the country (I'm not imputing this to, just speculating - but seeing as Faith cheered that post, it's likely that she read it the same way). You certainly have the right to say that and to believe that. But what you seem to be lamenting is that people are offended by a statement like that.

My daughter used to say things like "No offense, but your clothes are really ugly." How does saying "No offense." make something not offensive? That seems to me what you are complaining about... you want to say things like that and have people not be offended.

Christianity has a lot to do with this topic it seems to me. Here we have 2 professing Christians who object to not being able to say things that are offensive to others. But if you think about PC in terms of justice and how the words we use can build up or tear down; give justice or judgement; mercy or condemnation; compassion or indifference - it very much becomes a matter of Christian perspective. If there is any group that should value justice, mercy and compassion it should be Christians, but I fear many have lost sight of those values and have embraced fear, judgement and selfishness.

Maybe I miss understand your motives and reasoning. Change my mind. Give some real examples of the problem you describe.

HBD


Whoever calls me ignorant shares my own opinion. Sorrowfully and tacitly I recognize my ignorance, when I consider how much I lack of what my mind in its craving for knowledge is sighing for... I console myself with the consideration that this belongs to our common nature. - Francesco Petrarca

"Nothing is easier than to persuade people who want to be persuaded and already believe." - another Petrarca gem.

Ignorance is a most formidable opponent rivaled only by arrogance; but when the two join forces, one is all but invincible.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 141 by riVeRraT, posted 12-21-2018 8:11 AM riVeRraT has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 162 by Faith, posted 12-21-2018 12:42 PM herebedragons has not yet responded

  
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