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Author Topic:   Being offended.
Stile
Member
Posts: 3838
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004
Member Rating: 1.8


Message 151 of 381 (845820)
12-21-2018 9:27 AM
Reply to: Message 148 by Thugpreacha
12-21-2018 9:01 AM


Re: No one?
Phat writes:

His point is that the political correctness crowd is making it a crime, to be blunt and bigoted.

...

... attempting to legislate morality and create a leader that fills these expectations. Or something like that.

Yes, I agree this is the idea he's attempting to convey.

My response is, in the words of the Mighty Thor: "Is it, though?"

Is legislation being introduced?
If so, is it restricted into reasonable, specific areas or is it a wide ridiculous arc?

Hence my questioning for an example.

Let's see the meat behind this. Is there anything real to worried about? Or is riVeRraT himself simply being offended by a few loony comments and he just needs to learn to toughen up and deal with such minor inconveniences like everyone else does?

You and I don't care (much) about the flat-earthers attempting to re-write text-books, right?

It's not because they don't exist. They certainly do.
It's because we understand their attempts are fruitless... they are simply too wrong in order to make any progress through a reasonable system.

Is this claim about PC-legislation on the same level of flat-earther attempts?
Or is it something more serious?

We can't further this discussion unless riVeRraT provides something more than his claims.
It's 150 posts in and he's provided nothing so far. Is this because he has nothing? Or is this just because he's busy or hadn't had time yet, or doesn't understand that others can't read his mind and need him to explain himself instead of expecting everyone to agree with his "so obvious facts?"


This message is a reply to:
 Message 148 by Thugpreacha, posted 12-21-2018 9:01 AM Thugpreacha has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 160 by Faith, posted 12-21-2018 12:27 PM Stile has responded
 Message 193 by riVeRraT, posted 12-21-2018 6:40 PM Stile has responded
 Message 194 by riVeRraT, posted 12-21-2018 6:46 PM Stile has responded

    
herebedragons
Member
Posts: 1513
From: Michigan
Joined: 11-22-2009


(2)
Message 152 of 381 (845823)
12-21-2018 10:14 AM
Reply to: Message 141 by riVeRraT
12-21-2018 8:11 AM


Re: Still missing the point.
offensivness can be very subjective and that is why we should never head down that road

Sure it is. But I think that misses my larger point, so I will be more direct about it.

At its core, PC is about injustice. Is injustice objective? Who gets to decide when someone is treated unjustly? From a legal perspective, our justice system compares perceived injustice to the values and laws associated with our Constitution. Violations of our laws and Constitution are ruled to be unjust (still a mostly subjective matter though).

But what about personal feelings of injustice? Unless there are legal challenges to these words or actions (such as burning a cross on someone's lawn) you are free to express yourself as you wish. But if you are engaging in behavior or speech that other people view as degrading or unjust, other people also have a right to speak out against it. If these people are using threats and violence against your use of racist comments, then they are committing injustice and so are in the wrong. But if people are calling your comments unjust, insensitive or degrading, that's also their right to do so.

You have been short on examples of what types of offenses you think are being unfairly victimized by the PC crowd. But based on a brief comment you made this morning, an example may be that you want to call Islam a dangerous and evil religion and ban Muslims from entering the country (I'm not imputing this to, just speculating - but seeing as Faith cheered that post, it's likely that she read it the same way). You certainly have the right to say that and to believe that. But what you seem to be lamenting is that people are offended by a statement like that.

My daughter used to say things like "No offense, but your clothes are really ugly." How does saying "No offense." make something not offensive? That seems to me what you are complaining about... you want to say things like that and have people not be offended.

Christianity has a lot to do with this topic it seems to me. Here we have 2 professing Christians who object to not being able to say things that are offensive to others. But if you think about PC in terms of justice and how the words we use can build up or tear down; give justice or judgement; mercy or condemnation; compassion or indifference - it very much becomes a matter of Christian perspective. If there is any group that should value justice, mercy and compassion it should be Christians, but I fear many have lost sight of those values and have embraced fear, judgement and selfishness.

Maybe I miss understand your motives and reasoning. Change my mind. Give some real examples of the problem you describe.

HBD


Whoever calls me ignorant shares my own opinion. Sorrowfully and tacitly I recognize my ignorance, when I consider how much I lack of what my mind in its craving for knowledge is sighing for... I console myself with the consideration that this belongs to our common nature. - Francesco Petrarca

"Nothing is easier than to persuade people who want to be persuaded and already believe." - another Petrarca gem.

Ignorance is a most formidable opponent rivaled only by arrogance; but when the two join forces, one is all but invincible.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 141 by riVeRraT, posted 12-21-2018 8:11 AM riVeRraT has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 162 by Faith, posted 12-21-2018 12:42 PM herebedragons has not yet responded

  
riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 173 days)
Posts: 5746
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 153 of 381 (845825)
12-21-2018 10:59 AM
Reply to: Message 143 by Thugpreacha
12-21-2018 8:51 AM


Re: God Tests Us
Yes, demonizing gives them authority to throw PC out the window and offend at all costs. Many years ago someone on this forum said "there is no tolerance for intolerance". So anything they deem to be intolerance in their tiny brains gives them the green light to be assholes.

Yes, many Christians think they represent God. This is a huge mistake. They are juding themselves and others, exactly opposite of Jesus's teaching. It causes them to be offensive. I believe that the Holy Spirit is in all of us to some degree, and any person is capable of knowing how wrong it is to act all righteous because you call yourself a Christian.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 143 by Thugpreacha, posted 12-21-2018 8:51 AM Thugpreacha has not yet responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 17276
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.5


Message 154 of 381 (845826)
12-21-2018 10:59 AM
Reply to: Message 148 by Thugpreacha
12-21-2018 9:01 AM


Re: No one?
Phat writes:

His point is that the political correctness crowd is making it a crime, to be blunt and bigoted.


Inciting people to violence has always been a crime. The question of what constitutes "inciting" is a matter for the courts.

Phat writes:

He may claim that free speech should be preserved even if it offends someone.


Free speech has more to do with political opinions than with expressing every stupid thought that crosses your mind.

Phat writes:

The other side is attempting to legislate morality....


Isn't all legislation basically about morality?

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 148 by Thugpreacha, posted 12-21-2018 9:01 AM Thugpreacha has not yet responded

  
riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 173 days)
Posts: 5746
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 155 of 381 (845831)
12-21-2018 11:48 AM
Reply to: Message 144 by Stile
12-21-2018 8:54 AM


Re: Respectful Offense
Again, if you think Trump getting called a few names is "tyranny" by all means let's see your example.
Without an example that makes any sense... your bluster falls flat.

I never called it Tyranny, but it's going that way. I believe I explained it a few times. The problem if you call people names (with no factual foundation) and expect not to be called names, you are a hypocrit.

The point isn't that "there are people here who want the same." Who cares about a few loons?
The point is that "there is no progress here being made in that direction." And if you think there is, well, again... without you showing an actual example with some meat on it... your bluster falls flat

It's not just a few loons. It is a narrative pushed by the main stream media. If you have been watching the news, lots of people have lost their jobs over things they said. All of Trump supporters are hated over things Trump said (and subsequently taken out of context). For God's sake people are getting their heads smashed in. Are you being willfully ignorant on this subject?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 144 by Stile, posted 12-21-2018 8:54 AM Stile has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 156 by Stile, posted 12-21-2018 11:54 AM riVeRraT has responded

  
Stile
Member
Posts: 3838
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004
Member Rating: 1.8


Message 156 of 381 (845832)
12-21-2018 11:54 AM
Reply to: Message 155 by riVeRraT
12-21-2018 11:48 AM


Re: Respectful Offense
riVeRraT writes:

The problem if you call people names (with no factual foundation) and expect not to be called names, you are a hypocrit.

And I think it's pretty clear everyone agrees with you about this.
What's the problem?

It's not just a few loons. It is a narrative pushed by the main stream media. If you have been watching the news, lots of people have lost their jobs over things they said.

Any example we can look at to see if it has factual foundation or not?

All of Trump supporters are hated over things Trump said (and subsequently taken out of context).

Any example we can look at to see if it has factual foundation or not?

For God's sake people are getting their heads smashed in.

Any example we can look at to see if it has factual foundation or not?

Are you being willfully ignorant on this subject?

On the contrary.
I've been begging you to provide information so I can learn.

You seem more inclined to make broad claims than to actually talk about any issue.

If it's so much it's just overwhelming for you... just pick one. Whichever one you think is biggest or the worst or "shows what riVeRraT is trying to talk about in regards to people needing to not-be-offended over PC language" the most.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 155 by riVeRraT, posted 12-21-2018 11:48 AM riVeRraT has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 200 by riVeRraT, posted 12-22-2018 3:26 PM Stile has responded

    
Faith
Member
Posts: 32898
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 157 of 381 (845833)
12-21-2018 11:56 AM
Reply to: Message 117 by Larni
12-19-2018 2:35 PM


Re: Respectful Offense
When I was a lad in Northern Ireland the Proddies and Chathos were always killing each other with terrorism. Can I take it that this shows that terrorism is built into Christianity?

Roman Catholicism is really paganism onto which some Christian teachings have been grafted -- or alternatively, Christianity which degenerated into paganism which came to dominate with its superstitions and worldly ambitions. Their aim is like Islam's, to rule the world, and they did more or less do that at least in the West for many centuries. The papal leadership and the Jesuits still have that same mindset, even if most Catholics don't have a clue about it at that level. But they do get incited to kill Protestants on occasion, and persecute Jews. And in Ireland unfortunately some Protestants have retaliated although probably at nowhere near the murderous ferocity of the IRA.

But none of that is justified in the Bible, we are actually called to die to ourselves and not retaliate. If the Protestants had consistently done that in Ireland a lot of them would no doubt have died, as of course so many did under the Roman Caesars and the Roman Church's persecutions through the Middle Ages too, but that would have been the more Christian thing to do.

So no, terrorism is certainly not built into true Biblical Christianity, though it is built into the written documents of Islam.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 117 by Larni, posted 12-19-2018 2:35 PM Larni has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 180 by Larni, posted 12-21-2018 1:41 PM Faith has not yet responded

    
Faith
Member
Posts: 32898
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 158 of 381 (845835)
12-21-2018 12:03 PM
Reply to: Message 120 by Dr Adequate
12-19-2018 8:04 PM


Re: Respectful Offense
And so could everyone else. What we need to ask is how often this actually happens among refugees and how this compares to other groups such as, I dunno, conservatives.

No. It's written in the holy books of Islam, it is not written in any conservative or Christian holy books, and in the Bible we are commanded to die and not retaliate.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 120 by Dr Adequate, posted 12-19-2018 8:04 PM Dr Adequate has not yet responded

    
Faith
Member
Posts: 32898
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 159 of 381 (845836)
12-21-2018 12:13 PM
Reply to: Message 121 by GDR
12-19-2018 8:21 PM


Re: Respectful Offense
Any Muslim could be a terrorist, and could become a terrorist at any point even if not at the moment. {because killing infidels is officially prescribed by their religious writings}[/gs]

So could anyone even Christians.

People could say that abhorrent behaviour is built into Christianity.

Only by being perniciously Bible-illiterate could anyone say that.

So you are willfully ignorant of the teachings of Islam. Unfortunately it isn't only you who might suffer for your ignorance but your neighbors whom you are supposed to love as much as the Syrians. You might try to learn something about the aims of Islam to take the world for Allah some time. Individual Muslims may not know much or anything about that but they are part of the plan in spite of themselves.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 121 by GDR, posted 12-19-2018 8:21 PM GDR has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 189 by GDR, posted 12-21-2018 6:16 PM Faith has responded

    
Faith
Member
Posts: 32898
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 160 of 381 (845837)
12-21-2018 12:27 PM
Reply to: Message 151 by Stile
12-21-2018 9:27 AM


Re: No one?
Phat writes:


His point is that the political correctness crowd is making it a crime, to be blunt and bigoted. ... ... attempting to legislate morality and create a leader that fills these expectations. Or something like that.

Yes, I agree this is the idea he's attempting to convey.

My response is, in the words of the Mighty Thor: "Is it, though?"

Is legislation being introduced?

The only legislation I'm aware of is the "legislation" forced on us not by the legislating body but by the Supreme Court that extended marriage to gays. And that has had the repercussion of persecuting Christians asked to provide services for a gay wedding and refuse to do so.

But beyond legislation there is social persecution too. Tucker Carlson's talk show has been dropped by many advertisers because he said that illegal aliens are making the country "poorer and dirtier." I guess that's translated into PC speech to make it a racist statement though of course it isn't. So Carlson isn't being persecuted by legislation but by the Marxist PC mentality that has come to dominate society.

Is there anything real to worried about? Or is riVeRraT himself simply being offended by a few loony comments and he just needs to learn to toughen up and deal with such minor inconveniences like everyone else does?

It's very real to conservatives and Christians, though the Left seems to remain quite blind to it.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 151 by Stile, posted 12-21-2018 9:27 AM Stile has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 161 by Stile, posted 12-21-2018 12:39 PM Faith has not yet responded
 Message 163 by DrJones*, posted 12-21-2018 12:49 PM Faith has responded
 Message 169 by PaulK, posted 12-21-2018 1:07 PM Faith has responded

    
Stile
Member
Posts: 3838
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004
Member Rating: 1.8


Message 161 of 381 (845842)
12-21-2018 12:39 PM
Reply to: Message 160 by Faith
12-21-2018 12:27 PM


Re: No one?
Faith writes:

The only legislation I'm aware of is the "legislation" forced on us not by the legislating body but by the Supreme Court that extended marriage to gays. And that has had the repercussion of persecuting Christians asked to provide services for a gay wedding and refuse to do so.

A valid point.

Of course, the rebuttal is that "treating all people equally" is of greater value than "allowing Christians to treat some people as less-than-equal."

Here, I fully support any and all PC forcing or legislature or whatever else anyone would like to call it.
It seems like the right thing to do.

I would still denounce any violence (tyrannical or not) towards Christians (or anyone else) over such ideas.

But beyond legislation there is social persecution too. Tucker Carlson's talk show has been dropped by many advertisers because he said that illegal aliens are making the country "poorer and dirtier."

I don't see an issue with such things.
Are you saying that private businesses should be strictly controlled on where they can and cannot advertise?
Who would control such a thing?
What would the strict rules be?

Advertising is not selling a product... it's advertising to sell a product.
It seems to me that any business should be allowed to not advertise their product anywhere they wish.

If you do not agree with the businesses that dropped Tucker Carlson's talk show - feel free to boycot them.
If you make an impact, they will change their advertising preferences.
If you don't, well... they probably won't do anything.

It's very real to conservatives and Christians...

I'm not seeing anything to be concerned about, yet.

Feel free to lable me and lump me in with "the Left" if you prefer.
It would be wrong.
But I won't be offended.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 160 by Faith, posted 12-21-2018 12:27 PM Faith has not yet responded

    
Faith
Member
Posts: 32898
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 162 of 381 (845843)
12-21-2018 12:42 PM
Reply to: Message 152 by herebedragons
12-21-2018 10:14 AM


Re: Still missing the point.
Christianity has a lot to do with this topic it seems to me. Here we have 2 professing Christians who object to not being able to say things that are offensive to others. But if you think about PC in terms of justice and how the words we use can build up or tear down; give justice or judgement; mercy or condemnation; compassion or indifference - it very much becomes a matter of Christian perspective. If there is any group that should value justice, mercy and compassion it should be Christians, but I fear many have lost sight of those values and have embraced fear, judgement and selfishness.

Maybe I miss understand your motives and reasoning. Change my mind. Give some real examples of the problem you describe.

I gave a couople examples in the post just above this, one from the Christian perspective, one about a conservative talk show host Tucker Carlson.

I'm not defending anyone's being racist or saying racist things. Racism is utterly against Christian doctrine. We are all descended from one set of parents so we are all related to each other across all racial lines. My problem with this kneejerk PC accusation of racism is that it is FALSE, all kinds of things are being called racism which are not. It's hardly possible to talk about wanting a border wall for instance without someone making a sneering remark about "brown people" and utterly trashing all attempts to communicate rationally about this.

I point out that PC comes from Cultural Marxism, which it does, it comes out of Marxist "Victim" ideology which aims to destroy western civilization and has just about done so and may yet finish it off for good. So what do I get from Dr. A? A nasty cartoon suggesting I'm being anti-semitic by pointing out this truth, and aligning me with those who object to racial intermarriage as well. Typical PC thinking: it's nothing but character assassination, no interest in the actual facts at all.

No, it is not about justice at all, HBD, sorry. It's about destroying Christian civilization.

Christianity has a lot to do with this topic it seems to me. Here we have 2 professing Christians who object to not being able to say things that are offensive to others.

Such as that we need a border wall to protect the nation?. There's nothing racist about that but PC says it's racist.

Such as that homosexual acts are sin? Such as that gay marriage is a violation of God's Law? No way to avoid "offending" people once God's own word is defined as offensive and laws are put in place to punish it. Of course if they didn't go out of their way to force Christians to take a stand on this there wouldn't be a problem, but that's the whole point of PC, ultimately to criminalize Christians.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 152 by herebedragons, posted 12-21-2018 10:14 AM herebedragons has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 164 by ringo, posted 12-21-2018 12:55 PM Faith has not yet responded

    
DrJones*
Member
Posts: 1932
From: Edmonton, Alberta, Canada
Joined: 08-19-2004
Member Rating: 4.8


(4)
Message 163 of 381 (845844)
12-21-2018 12:49 PM
Reply to: Message 160 by Faith
12-21-2018 12:27 PM


Re: No one?
But beyond legislation there is social persecution too.

boo hoo, I really feel for snowflakes on the right who think they can say/do whatever they want but not face any consequences. (that was sarcasm)

Tucker Carlson's talk show has been dropped by many advertisers because he said that illegal aliens are making the country "poorer and dirtier."

Advertisers have the right to determine who/what they'll spend their money on. If Tucker Carlson can't stand to face the consequences of his actions perhaps he should go home to his mommy.

Edited by DrJones*, : No reason given.


It's not enough to bash in heads, you've got to bash in minds
soon I discovered that this rock thing was true
Jerry Lee Lewis was the devil
Jesus was an architect previous to his career as a prophet
All of a sudden i found myself in love with the world
And so there was only one thing I could do
Was ding a ding dang my dang along ling long - Jesus Built my Hotrod Ministry
Live every week like it's Shark Week! - Tracey Jordan
Just a monkey in a long line of kings. - Matthew Good
If "elitist" just means "not the dumbest motherfucker in the room", I'll be an elitist! - Get Your War On
*not an actual doctor

This message is a reply to:
 Message 160 by Faith, posted 12-21-2018 12:27 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 165 by Faith, posted 12-21-2018 12:56 PM DrJones* has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 17276
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.5


(1)
Message 164 of 381 (845845)
12-21-2018 12:55 PM
Reply to: Message 162 by Faith
12-21-2018 12:42 PM


Re: Still missing the point.
Faith writes:

It's about destroying Christian civilization.


"Christian civilization" is an oxymoron. Christianity is an individual matter.

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 162 by Faith, posted 12-21-2018 12:42 PM Faith has not yet responded

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 32898
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 165 of 381 (845846)
12-21-2018 12:56 PM
Reply to: Message 163 by DrJones*
12-21-2018 12:49 PM


Re: No one?
boo hoo, I really feel for snowflakes on the right who think they can say/do whatever they want but not face any consequences. (that was sarcasm)

Yup, there you have it. So much for freedom of speech, so much for the American Constitution, so much for the free society. It's the truth that suffers too in this zeal to call everything racist. Do go listen to that video in the OP. That Russian guy knows what oppression is. We're getting there and your comment is evidence. Right, Tucker Carlson must be punished for saying something absolutely true that is NOT racist, because of the Thought Police. This evil is going to bring down the whole nation. Well, it's already just about brought down all of western civilization as a whole. You won't know what hit you of course.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 163 by DrJones*, posted 12-21-2018 12:49 PM DrJones* has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 166 by Stile, posted 12-21-2018 1:02 PM Faith has responded
 Message 168 by DrJones*, posted 12-21-2018 1:06 PM Faith has responded

    
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