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Author Topic:   Evidence For Belief
Phat
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Posts: 14612
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 1 of 103 (846152)
12-30-2018 1:34 PM


EvC Forum has traditionally been divided into two basic sections:
Science Forums and Social & Religious Forums.

One issue which we have discussed at length in our many threads and topics is the idea of whether or not Religious and/or Philosophical Belief requires a strict standard of evidence in order to be seriously considered as valid. In this topic, I wish to gather some of the points made by our various debates throughout the forum and present them all together in order to hopefully encourage a discussion on the idea of evidenced beliefs versus myths, legends, fantasies, and other unsupported assertions by believers and secular philosophers alike.

This topic is not limited to science nor is it confined to the dogma of belief.

It is hopefully a hybrid.

Edited by Phat, : No reason given.

Edited by Phat, : No reason given.

Edited by Phat, : No reason given.


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
~Stile


  
Phat
Member
Posts: 14612
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 2 of 103 (846170)
12-30-2018 3:29 PM


Uncaused First Causes
So many discussions here!
Percy,to GDR writes:

Go find the objective evidence of this intelligent root cause. Stop asking meaningless rhetorical questions like, "How else could all of creation have come about without an intelligent root cause?"


ringo writes:

GDR asked why chemicals exist. Presumably, his answer is because God created them. So, the next obvious question is: Who created God?

If you can just stop asking at God as "the first uncaused thing", then why not start at chemicals as the first uncaused thing?(...)chemicals are not made up. They exist objectively.

That much can be proven. But what is unknown is in the beginning. We humans were not around to declare anything objectively. Objective evidence must be timeless. We don't have enough information to determine chemicals to be the initial uncaused cause. Again, the human animal is the only animal that defines reality before its own existence.

In addition, for all participants, I might mention that this topic could also be called Belief In Evidence. It seems that many people claim no belief in life but always frame their arguments evidentially. Evidence itself is seemingly a hoped-for result. One point that I have brought up before, however, is that evidence removes the belief from the equation entirely. Some argue that God, if God exists (and is the Christian version) wants people to have trust and belief in Him as a precondition to salvation. Critics balk at such a hypothetical suggestion, maintaining a need for evidence before any acknowledgment of Gods existence is given. But as I said before, if you have evidence you do not believe anything any longer.

Edited by Phat, : No reason given.


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
~Stile


Replies to this message:
 Message 4 by ringo, posted 12-30-2018 4:03 PM Phat has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 14612
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 3 of 103 (846176)
12-30-2018 3:58 PM


Chemtrails
ringo writes:

How can philosophy and belief "make more sense" than reality?


Reality limits us to physical objective evidence. Speculation requires more.
Some of the greatest inventions and discoveries originated with speculation.
Were scientists unimaginative, they would have sat around forever waiting for chemicals to assemble in front of them.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
~Stile


Replies to this message:
 Message 6 by ringo, posted 12-30-2018 4:07 PM Phat has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 14612
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 5 of 103 (846180)
12-30-2018 4:05 PM
Reply to: Message 4 by ringo
12-30-2018 4:03 PM


Re: Uncaused First Causes
Humor is evidence of creativity. Creativity is evidence of a Creator. Quid Pro Quo, Dr.Lector

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
~Stile


This message is a reply to:
 Message 4 by ringo, posted 12-30-2018 4:03 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 7 by ringo, posted 12-30-2018 4:15 PM Phat has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 14612
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 8 of 103 (846183)
12-30-2018 4:15 PM
Reply to: Message 6 by ringo
12-30-2018 4:07 PM


Re: Chemtrails
ringo writes:

There's nothing wrong with speculation that's based on reality - but how can you invent something useful with no basis in reality?

Thats on topic for this thread!

Christianity was invented according to some skeptics. One could argue that it has no basis in reality since "resurrections don't happen". Many people throughout History have not only believed, but in many cases have studied and devoted entire careers to furthering human understanding of this "myth". I submit that the jury is out regarding whether Christianity is a clever myth or not. I for one believe that God exists and is real. you could challenge my claim (and have) by saying that I ignore the message which I am supposed to believe in.

So where does this argument go from here?

Belief *should* be based on reality. Does subjective experience count as reality? Does an eyewitness account count as evidence for reality? Or are we confining reality to the behavior of chemicals which we have known about and which evidently existed forever?


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
~Stile


This message is a reply to:
 Message 6 by ringo, posted 12-30-2018 4:07 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 10 by ringo, posted 12-30-2018 4:26 PM Phat has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 14612
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 9 of 103 (846184)
12-30-2018 4:18 PM
Reply to: Message 7 by ringo
12-30-2018 4:15 PM


Re: Uncaused First Causes
ringo writes:

Creativity is evidence of A creator - one of many - not THE Creator. In the case of humour, the creators are us.

Does creative intelligence simply evolve out of chemicals? Do we have evidence that life and creativity can be reproduced in a lab? Is it so silly to speculate that in order for us to be creators suggests that there is likely "THE Creator"? Why or why not?

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
~Stile


This message is a reply to:
 Message 7 by ringo, posted 12-30-2018 4:15 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 11 by ringo, posted 12-30-2018 4:32 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 14612
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 21 of 103 (846210)
12-31-2018 8:35 AM
Reply to: Message 20 by Straggler
12-31-2018 7:30 AM


Re: Subjectively understanding objective evidence.
What you say does make sense, but the cognitive dissonance is strong in this one! I have had too much subjective experience that convinced me that the Spirit is real to fully reject Christianity. I would admit, however, that were I to reject Christianity I most certainly would not embrace any of the other beliefs. They make even less sense to me. So in effect, I have proven your theory and observed suggestion.

I think that what GDR is trying to express is a defense of his own reasoning for why he believes as he does. I am in agreement with him because I feel the same way and have the same need to apologetically defend my belief.

I disagree with Tangles premature conclusion that there is no God. He asks how it can be otherwise...and awaits evidence which neither GDR nor I can provide.
Note, however, that he has a particular habit of taking the God of the book and vilifying Him...urging believers to reconsider Whom It Is that they are supporting. In conclusion, I believe that Jesus is alive (ever-present with us in Spirit and I also believe the basic mythos that asserts He will return to Earth again in bodily form or substance. Don't ask me to provide rational reasons---I'll admit it does not make a lot of evidential sense.

Percy brings up a good point when he argues that we fail to be satisfied when our opponents choose to believe differently. Personally, I don't care too much how you, or Stile, or ringo or Tangle believe or accept regarding logic, reason, and reality.

In fact, who gets me most anxious and upset is Faith, for she refuses to even consider that her belief is wrong. The anti Calvinism arguments made sense to me back when we had them though I must admit that my cognitive dissonance levels are through the roof! Pastor ICANT gets my respect not for his observations about science...but for this statement which he made that sums up how I feel as well:

quote:
I don't trust religion or the religious. Most of them belong to the devil.

So make me feel better. Tell me that there is any chance that I can relax without giving up my belief. (Or is faith in "chance" part of my addictive hangups in the first place?

Edited by Phat, : added quote


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
~Stile


This message is a reply to:
 Message 20 by Straggler, posted 12-31-2018 7:30 AM Straggler has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 22 by Straggler, posted 12-31-2018 9:00 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply
 Message 23 by Tangle, posted 12-31-2018 9:26 AM Phat has not yet responded
 Message 24 by ringo, posted 12-31-2018 10:57 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 14612
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 31 of 103 (846250)
01-01-2019 3:02 PM
Reply to: Message 30 by GDR
01-01-2019 2:24 PM


Re: Subjectively understanding objective evidence.
I agree with you and that is a good point. The Bible was written to chronicle a very important truth in the lives of the people of that day and time. It was written as a message to all of their descendants as well, in my opinion. That includes us today.

There are many reasons why these works could be criticized as they are by many modern scholars. There is no concrete evidence that the stories actually occurred, though I don't rely solely on evidence apart from my own internal subjectivity when it comes to belief. People ask me why I don't consider a spaghetti monster as equally probable...and I simply laugh. But they do have a point and it mystifies me. Then I realize that their disbelief is as incredulous to me as my belief must seem to them. They have valid reasons for rejecting the God they imagine to be the one in the book. They also have valid reasons for rejecting religion. My arguments are not so much to win a debate or convince anyone of anything, except perhaps my sanity. Of course, this being a debate site, my sanity is still on the table.


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
~Stile


This message is a reply to:
 Message 30 by GDR, posted 01-01-2019 2:24 PM GDR has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 32 by Straggler, posted 01-01-2019 3:51 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply
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Phat
Member
Posts: 14612
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 44 of 103 (846285)
01-02-2019 3:56 PM
Reply to: Message 43 by ringo
01-02-2019 3:46 PM


Re: Subjectively understanding objective evidence.
How does the Bible differ from The Lord of the Rings?
Tolkien sat down and wrote a tale from scratch. Made up each and every character and defined their behaviors and tasks relating to the story.

In contrast, the writers of the Bible were recording events that actually happened around them and the reactions of others who encountered these same events. The Bible was not simply made up on the spot. You may have an argument regarding embellishing old tales to make them more palatable to the desired audience--at best.

A century or so ago, authors of fiction went to great length to suggest that their stories were true.
There is no evidence that the authors of the Bible were intentionally writing fiction. Thats my whole point. And it is most definitely the case with Jesus Christ.
I'll Eat A Page From My Bible If Jesus Didnt Exist
A good article. Speaking of Richard Carriers debunking, the author writes:
quote:
Almost no one believes Carrier - outside the circle of eager sceptics. Morris is simply wrong to refer to "many professional historians" who doubt the existence of Jesus. There is no "wave". There is, of course, a spectrum in "historical Jesus" studies, from hyper-sceptical to hyper-credulous (you see a similar spectrum in climate change discussions). Carrier is way down one end, and Christian apologists are at the other.

The remaining 90 per cent of working scholars - thousands of them in real universities around the world - couldn't care less about these margins. They aren't trying to debunk Christianity or prove it. They study the figure of Jesus the way historians study Alexander the Great or Julius Caesar. And in the library of Macquarie University, home to the largest ancient history department in the country, there are probably as many tomes devoted to the historical Jesus as there are to Alexander and Caesar combined. The study of Jesus is a vast discipline, of which the head of Adelaide's atheist society appears to have no knowledge, beyond that of Carrier.(...)To repeat a challenge I've put out on social media several times before, I will eat a page of my Bible if someone can find me just one full Professor of Ancient History, Classics, or New Testament in an accredited university somewhere in the world (there are thousands of names to choose from) who think Jesus never lived.

I don't deny that there are substantial questions that could be raised about the Christian faith, but the historical reality of Jesus of Nazareth isn't one of them.


I agree with this assessmemnt.

Edited by Phat, : No reason given.


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
~Stile


This message is a reply to:
 Message 43 by ringo, posted 01-02-2019 3:46 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 45 by ringo, posted 01-02-2019 4:18 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 14612
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 47 of 103 (877620)
06-19-2020 11:07 AM
Reply to: Message 7 by ringo
12-30-2018 4:15 PM


Re: Uncaused First Causes
EvC Forum has traditionally been divided into two basic sections:
Science Forums and Social & Religious Forums.
One issue which we have discussed at length in our many threads and topics is the idea of whether or not Religious and/or Philosophical Belief requires a strict standard of evidence in order to be seriously considered as valid. In this topic, I wish to gather some of the points made by our various debates throughout the forum and present them all together in order to hopefully encourage a discussion on the idea of evidenced beliefs versus myths, legends, fantasies, and other unsupported assertions by believers and secular philosophers alike.

This topic is not limited to science nor is it confined to the dogma of belief.

It is hopefully a hybrid.
*************************************************
I started this topic at the end of 2018 and thought it timely to resurrect, mainly because of our current beef with a stubborn Dad.

ringo writes:

There's nothing wrong with speculation that's based on reality - but how can you invent something useful with no basis in reality?

Thats my point. You cant nor did not invent the God i am discussing. At worst, you can claim that I invented Him, but perhaps you would need some evidence.

vimesey writes:

Assertion.
No evidence.
Fail.


To be precise, the failure in this case is the failure to present a supportable science based challenge. Note that this is a science Forum.

Dad, please listen to moderation. If you stay here at EvC, you will get challenged and perhaps someday will challenge others as your arguments become more refined and you are able to make valid points. If you challenge authority (which is ungodly, by the way) you will simply get suspended and we will be at a loss for not having you around to challenge and refine *our* arguments.

ringo,addressing Dad writes:

Again, you do not get to define science. Nobody cares what you think science is.


Well actually some of us *do* care. After all, if you respond to us in a Science Forum, we expect you to respond scientifically rather than emotionally. Which is why I usually stay out of this side of the Forum.
ringo writes:

I wasn't including people who grasp at any straw to prop up their failed beliefs.


ringo writes:

It isn't a definitive test but lack of evidence is a test. You accept that lack of evidence indicates non-existence of fairies, Loch Ness Monster, leprechauns, etc. don't you?

Yes but not on the grounds of lack of evidence. I reject them based on my belief.
ringo writes:

And a hiding God is pretty lame theology too.

You dont get to define what does and does not *make* God lame. Keep these sorts of comments inj Faith & Belief. You also dont get to define evidence over the entire Forum. You best stick to the science side should you choose to throw that word around. (at which point I move the topic out of Geology & The Flood)

Phat writes:

Yes but not on the grounds of lack of evidence. I reject them based on my belief.


ringo writes:

That's much worse, rejecting beliefs that are as valid or more valid than your own just because they interfere with the belief that you fell into by accident.


Phat writes:

You dont get to define what does and does not *make* God lame.


ringo writes:

Yes I do.

Phat writes:

You also dont get to define evidence over the entire Forum.


ringo writes:

I'm not. I'm using the accepted definition of evidence.

Phat writes:

You best stick to the science side should you choose to throw that word around.


ringo writes:

Faith and belief is not necessarily a blind rejection of evidence. We have every right to talk about evidence over here.

Edited by Phat, : added moved conversation

Edited by Phat, : No reason given.


“The only way I know to drive out evil from the country is by the constructive method of filling it with good.”Calvin Coolidge
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
“As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.”-RC Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith

- You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do.
Anne Lamott
I Have Strong Arguments Which I Cant Say To You~CG

This message is a reply to:
 Message 7 by ringo, posted 12-30-2018 4:15 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 48 by ringo, posted 06-19-2020 11:19 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 14612
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 49 of 103 (877625)
06-19-2020 11:19 AM


Quid Pro Quo, Dr. ringo
ringo writes:

That's much worse, rejecting beliefs that are as valid or more valid than your own just because they interfere with the belief that you fell into by accident.

Do you have any evidence that it was an accident? Do you have any reason to assert that all beliefs are equally valid? Might it not just be possible that some of us have the belief that is closest to reality or...in fact...that our God created the very parameters of the reality you seek to define?

“The only way I know to drive out evil from the country is by the constructive method of filling it with good.”Calvin Coolidge
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
“As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.”-RC Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith

- You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do.
Anne Lamott
I Have Strong Arguments Which I Cant Say To You~CG

Replies to this message:
 Message 50 by ringo, posted 06-19-2020 11:29 AM Phat has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 14612
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 51 of 103 (877628)
06-19-2020 11:32 AM
Reply to: Message 10 by ringo
12-30-2018 4:26 PM


Re: Chemtrails
ringo writes:

If there is evidence, there's no excuse for belief.

Belief is like a good insurance policy. It covers the Acts of God that your evidence-based insurance does not cover.

ringo writes:

Leprechauns hide because they want you to have faith in them. The Loch Ness monster hides because she wants you to have faith in her. Bigfoot hides because he wants you to have faith in him. Martians hide because they want you to have faith in them. Phlogiston hides because it wants you to have faith in it. The earth pretends to be round because it wants you to believe it's flat.

This is just silly talk. Evenj if the first critters did exist, the idea that the earth has a living conscious personality is itself another demon masquerading as an object of worship. Tree huggers beware.

ringo writes:

There's nothing wrong with speculation that's based on reality - but how can you invent something useful with no basis in reality?

I have two points.
First, I did not invent God nor did the apologists. You can argue, as does jar, that humans create the gods they want. Thats a valid point. I disagree with it based on my own reasoning and my subjective experience. It seems clear to me also that GOD, if GOD exists and if GOD chose to relate to humans through Jesus, that He wont provide us with Objective proof (evidence for everyone) because it would essentially make us acknowledge Him and He wants that to be our decision and not our sane duty.

ringo writes:

Creativity is evidence of A creator - one of many - not THE Creator. In the case of humour, the creators are us.

That I will acknowledge as long as it makes me laugh. Ive never yet heard a good joke from God.

ringo writes:

Are the twelve patients who think they're Napoleon really Napoleon?

No more than the 12 patients who think they are your Disciples really your Disciples. Whats your point?

ringo writes:

We're confining reality to reality. Otherwise, we wouldn't have bothered to make up words for fantasy, fiction, etc.
And those chemicals didn't exist "forever", only since some time after the Big Bang.

Do we have any evidence that an uncaused first cause lit the fuse for this Bang you talk about?

Is Stephen Hawking as wise as the Prophet Isaiah? On what evidence do you base your reply?


“The only way I know to drive out evil from the country is by the constructive method of filling it with good.”Calvin Coolidge
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
“As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.”-RC Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith

- You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do.
Anne Lamott
I Have Strong Arguments Which I Cant Say To You~CG

This message is a reply to:
 Message 10 by ringo, posted 12-30-2018 4:26 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 53 by ringo, posted 06-19-2020 11:54 AM Phat has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 14612
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 52 of 103 (877631)
06-19-2020 11:44 AM
Reply to: Message 50 by ringo
06-19-2020 11:29 AM


Re: Quid Pro Quo, Dr. ringo
Phat writes:

Do you have any evidence that it was an accident?


ringo writes:

People born into Christian cultures tend to be Christians, people who are born into Muslim cultures tend to be Muslims. If you had been born anywhere else in the world, do you think your beliefs would still be so American?

First of all, Christianity is not "American". Second of all, there are Christians in every culture, even in Islamic Nations.
Phat writes:

Do you have any reason to assert that all beliefs are equally valid?


ringo writes:

I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt by putting your foolish beliefs on the same plane as other more sensible beliefs.

I await your evidence that there are more sensible beliefs than Christianity. This should be good!

ringo writes:

They are equal in the sense that they equally lack evidence.

Objectively but not subjectively. I will give you the benefit of the doubt in that you stand at the altar,flowers in hand, waiting for evidence to show up while having dumped belief because it was not objective enough for your standards.

Phat writes:

Might it not just be possible that some of us have the belief that is closest to reality...


You tell me. Is it possible that Zeus is closest to reality?
I suppose that with God all things are possible, but I am personally unimpressed with Zeus.

“The only way I know to drive out evil from the country is by the constructive method of filling it with good.”Calvin Coolidge
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
“As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.”-RC Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith

- You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do.
Anne Lamott
I Have Strong Arguments Which I Cant Say To You~CG

This message is a reply to:
 Message 50 by ringo, posted 06-19-2020 11:29 AM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 54 by ringo, posted 06-19-2020 12:05 PM Phat has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 14612
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 55 of 103 (877637)
06-19-2020 12:20 PM
Reply to: Message 53 by ringo
06-19-2020 11:54 AM


Re: Chemtrails
ringo writes:

There are thousands of insurance companies and your belief is that only one of them pays out.

Only one of them does pay out. And its not a matter of paying out...its a matter of Creating what we know as reality. God created all seen and unseen through Jesus Christ. Jesus is alive today. This *is* reality.

ringo writes:

It was intended to be silly. It's a parody of your belief in a hiding god.

God does not hide from us. We hide(or try to hide) from God. And the definition of the word Occult is akin to hidden knowledge, but the bible tells us that all things hidden shall be revealed.

ringo writes:

If there's any reasoning involved, why don't you present it instead of just parroting the apologists?

You seem to assert two things.
1) All apologists are delusional. Which is false.
2) Reasoning involves rejection of apologetics.
yet the definition of apologetics is this:
Wiki writes:

The term apologetics derives from the Ancient Greek word apologia (ἀπολογία).[1] In the Classical Greek legal system, the prosecution delivered the kategoria (κατηγορία), the accusation or charge, and the defendant replied with an apologia, the defence.[5] The apologia was a formal speech or explanation to reply to and rebut the charges. A famous example is Socrates' Apologia defense, as chronicled in Plato's Apology.

In the Koine Greek of the New Testament, the Apostle Paul employs the term apologia in his trial speech to Festus and Agrippa when he says "I make my defense" in Acts 26:2.[6] A cognate form appears in Paul's Letter to the Philippians as he is "defending the gospel" in Philippians 1:7,[7] and in "giving an answer" in 1 Peter 3:15.[8]

Although the term apologetics has Western, primarily Christian origins and is most frequently associated with the defense of Christianity, the term is sometimes used referring to the defense of any religion in formal debate involving religion.

Thus, reasoning need not involve rejection of apologetics.

ringo writes:

Polly want a cracker?

Yes, and I believe I will partake of Holy Communion and have some wine as well...symbolic of the sacrifice my Lord made for me.
Polly wanna eat crow? Or perhaps choke on some manna? (all jokes aside, I approach these debates prayerfully). You are a worthy debater.
ringo writes:

As far as I know, we have no definitive evidence for ANY "uncaused cause". That's not an excuse for you to make one up.

From your definition that evidence must be objective, we do not yet have objective evidence that God is real. We DO have a way to prove this provided you are willing to give up everything you thought was truth and place it on the altar. Or does that scare you?

ringo writes:

How would you go about measuring wisdom?

Good question, ringo. I may need time to think about it.

“The only way I know to drive out evil from the country is by the constructive method of filling it with good.”Calvin Coolidge
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
“As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.”-RC Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith

- You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do.
Anne Lamott
I Have Strong Arguments Which I Cant Say To You~CG

This message is a reply to:
 Message 53 by ringo, posted 06-19-2020 11:54 AM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 57 by ringo, posted 06-19-2020 12:37 PM Phat has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 14612
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 56 of 103 (877639)
06-19-2020 12:28 PM
Reply to: Message 54 by ringo
06-19-2020 12:05 PM


Re: Quid Pro Quo, Dr. ringo
ringo writes:

I have pointed out many times how nonsensical your beliefs are. For just one example, the idea that God sent his "son" (himself) so that we could kill him and only then could he forgive us.

1) Why did we kill him?
2)Genesis 22:1-19

1 After these things God tested Abraham and said to him, “Abraham!” And he said, “Here I am.” 2 He said, “Take your son, your only son Isaac, whom you love, and go to the land of Moriah, and offer him there as a burnt offering on one of the mountains of which I shall tell you.” 3 So Abraham rose early in the morning, saddled his donkey, and took two of his young men with him, and his son Isaac. And he cut the wood for the burnt offering and arose and went to the place of which God had told him. 4 On the third day Abraham lifted up his eyes and saw the place from afar. 5 Then Abraham said to his young men, “Stay here with the donkey; I and the boy will go over there and worship and come again to you.” 6 And Abraham took the wood of the burnt offering and laid it on Isaac his son. And he took in his hand the fire and the knife. So they went both of them together. 7 And Isaac said to his father Abraham, “My father!” And he said, “Here I am, my son.” He said, “Behold, the fire and the wood, but where is the lamb for a burnt offering?” 8 Abraham said, “God will provide for himself the lamb for a burnt offering, my son.” So they went both of them together.

9 When they came to the place of which God had told him, Abraham built the altar there and laid the wood in order and bound Isaac his son and laid him on the altar, on top of the wood. 10 Then Abraham reached out his hand and took the knife to slaughter his son. 11 But the angel of the LORD called to him from heaven and said, “Abraham, Abraham!” And he said, “Here I am.” 12 He said, “Do not lay your hand on the boy or do anything to him, for now I know that you fear God, seeing you have not withheld your son, your only son, from me.” 13 And Abraham lifted up his eyes and looked, and behold, behind him was a ram, caught in a thicket by his horns. And Abraham went and took the ram and offered it up as a burnt offering instead of his son. 14 So Abraham called the name of that place, “The LORD will provide”;b as it is said to this day, “On the mount of the LORD it shall be provided.”c

15 And the angel of the LORD called to Abraham a second time from heaven 16 and said, “By myself I have sworn, declares the LORD, because you have done this and have not withheld your son, your only son, 17 I will surely bless you, and I will surely multiply your offspring as the stars of heaven and as the sand that is on the seashore. And your offspring shall possess the gate of his enemies, 18 and in your offspring shall all the nations of the earth be blessed, because you have obeyed my voice.” 19 So Abraham returned to his young men, and they arose and went together to Beersheba. And Abraham lived at Beersheba.


“The only way I know to drive out evil from the country is by the constructive method of filling it with good.”Calvin Coolidge
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
“As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.”-RC Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith

- You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do.
Anne Lamott
I Have Strong Arguments Which I Cant Say To You~CG

This message is a reply to:
 Message 54 by ringo, posted 06-19-2020 12:05 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 58 by ringo, posted 06-19-2020 12:41 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
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