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Author Topic:   Evidence For Belief
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 5118
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 3.1


Message 61 of 103 (877961)
06-23-2020 6:45 PM
Reply to: Message 59 by a servant of Christ
06-23-2020 2:53 PM


That's right. We want real evidence, not the charlatans' fabrications.

Factio Republicana delenda est.
I am antifa.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 59 by a servant of Christ, posted 06-23-2020 2:53 PM a servant of Christ has not yet responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 18322
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.8


(1)
Message 62 of 103 (877963)
06-23-2020 7:47 PM
Reply to: Message 59 by a servant of Christ
06-23-2020 2:53 PM


a Servant of Christ writes:

hey these guys want evidence
they don't want the our lady of Guadalupe image

or the shroud of turin

or bodies not decomposing

or suns dancing in the sky

they definitely don't want weeping paintings and statues

apparitions appearing to young children

they don't want eucharists bleeding in cups


Too bad Faith isn't around. She'd tell you how evil those Cathomolics is. It would make a good cage match.

"I'm Fallen and I can't get up!"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 59 by a servant of Christ, posted 06-23-2020 2:53 PM a servant of Christ has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 63 by a servant of Christ, posted 06-24-2020 6:39 AM ringo has responded

  
a servant of Christ
Member
Posts: 1739
Joined: 01-12-2004


Message 63 of 103 (877969)
06-24-2020 6:39 AM
Reply to: Message 62 by ringo
06-23-2020 7:47 PM


I didn't engage when she was on here

prots are just as lost as atheists in many ways

roman Catholicism is the one true faith religion


This message is a reply to:
 Message 62 by ringo, posted 06-23-2020 7:47 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 64 by AZPaul3, posted 06-24-2020 8:43 AM a servant of Christ has not yet responded
 Message 65 by ringo, posted 06-24-2020 10:10 AM a servant of Christ has not yet responded
 Message 72 by Phat, posted 07-01-2020 11:12 AM a servant of Christ has not yet responded

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 5118
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 3.1


Message 64 of 103 (877976)
06-24-2020 8:43 AM
Reply to: Message 63 by a servant of Christ
06-24-2020 6:39 AM


Yes, Dear. Of course it is.

Factio Republicana delenda est.
I am antifa.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 63 by a servant of Christ, posted 06-24-2020 6:39 AM a servant of Christ has not yet responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 18322
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.8


Message 65 of 103 (877983)
06-24-2020 10:10 AM
Reply to: Message 63 by a servant of Christ
06-24-2020 6:39 AM


a Servant of Christ writes:

prots are just as lost as atheists in many ways


It's funny (ha ha) how you brand everybody who disagrees with you as an "atheist".

"I'm Fallen and I can't get up!"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 63 by a servant of Christ, posted 06-24-2020 6:39 AM a servant of Christ has not yet responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 14132
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 66 of 103 (878527)
07-01-2020 4:01 AM
Reply to: Message 57 by ringo
06-19-2020 12:37 PM


All Things That Are Hidden Will Be Revealed.
Holding back the evidence is hiding.
You call it hiding. Perhaps He calls it not conforming to (or bowing to) YOUR standards. Think about it. The supposed Creator of all seen and unseen wont provide you with evidence of His existence. Yet you wont take a leap of faith. I call it a standoff. You claim He hides from you. He may claim you hide from Him.

Comments?


“The only way I know to drive out evil from the country is by the constructive method of filling it with good.”Calvin Coolidge
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
“As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.”-RC Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith

- You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do.
Anne Lamott
I Have Strong Arguments Which I Cant Say To You~CG

This message is a reply to:
 Message 57 by ringo, posted 06-19-2020 12:37 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 67 by jar, posted 07-01-2020 7:50 AM Phat has responded
 Message 74 by ringo, posted 07-01-2020 11:26 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
jar
Member
Posts: 32654
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 1.8


Message 67 of 103 (878531)
07-01-2020 7:50 AM
Reply to: Message 66 by Phat
07-01-2020 4:01 AM


Re: All Things That Are Hidden Will Be Revealed.
Phat writes:

You claim He hides from you. He may claim you hide from Him.

Comments?

Sure. There is absolutely no evidence or reasoned argument that could support such an absurd position.


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 66 by Phat, posted 07-01-2020 4:01 AM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 68 by Phat, posted 07-01-2020 9:03 AM jar has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 14132
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 68 of 103 (878532)
07-01-2020 9:03 AM
Reply to: Message 67 by jar
07-01-2020 7:50 AM


Re: All Things That Are Hidden Will Be Revealed.
jar writes:

There is absolutely no evidence or reasoned argument that could support such an absurd position.

I can see your arguments regarding apologetic medicine men. I dont buy them totally, however. I feel that you fail to have ever grasped the concept of being born again. You dismissed it as an apologetic marketing tool. In so doing, you distanced yourself from the Christianity I embrace. Lets talk.

  • You wont discover God through evidence. You will only find Him (or allow Him to find you) through belief. And your belief must be strong. You always ask how we would know. We wouldn't. Your problem is that you have limited your belief by insisting that you need evidence. Which is a lack of faith.

    You claim that the entire religion should be examined using logic and reason and in light of reality as you understand it. Fine. Thats your stance. What you have done, however, is to declare war on Biblical Christianity. You have used a broad brush to paint all of the faith based believers into an apologetic prison of fantasy. All that you have on your side is works. Being unsure about GOD and not knowing with certainty that Jesus lives. Yet you found a way around all that. You made up your own belief based on what you did examine. You allowed secular Socratic teachers to color your thinking more than people who knew God.

    You now preach that Christianity is about what we do versus what we could have done. That an unknown (and unknowable) Judge will someday open the book, review our lives and our behavior, and send us to either salvation(likely unsaved people and those of other religions mainly) or damnation (the goats, which will be Biblical Christians largely, in your whimsical fantasy)

    You are of course entitled to your belief. I cant prove that the supernatural is real. I cant explain how you can know that Jesus is alive or that the Holy Spirit is more than simply a twinge of conscience...it is the very presence of GOD.

    You scoff at what I say, pointing out that I create the God I want. Meanwhile you use your own wisdom (a false god to be sure) that tells you that all religions are equally true, that truth is relative, that nobody on the planet can ever know GOD until after they die, yada yada yada. And yet you hide behind your defense that you simply present the book as it is written and that it is the apologists who sell a fantasy. I know you too well. You claim I haven't changed in 20 years yet I can and do say the same about you.

    Edited by Phat, : No reason given.


    “The only way I know to drive out evil from the country is by the constructive method of filling it with good.”Calvin Coolidge
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
    “As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.”-RC Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith

    - You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do.
    Anne Lamott
    I Have Strong Arguments Which I Cant Say To You~CG

  • This message is a reply to:
     Message 67 by jar, posted 07-01-2020 7:50 AM jar has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 69 by jar, posted 07-01-2020 9:30 AM Phat has responded

      
    jar
    Member
    Posts: 32654
    From: Texas!!
    Joined: 04-20-2004
    Member Rating: 1.8


    Message 69 of 103 (878533)
    07-01-2020 9:30 AM
    Reply to: Message 68 by Phat
    07-01-2020 9:03 AM


    Re: All Things That Are Hidden Will Be Revealed.
    Phat writes:

    You claim that the entire religion should be examined using logic and reason and in light of reality as you understand it

    No Phat, not as I understand but rather as it really is.

    Phat writes:

    What you have done, however, is to declare war on Biblical Christianity.

    Not a war Phat but rather an understanding that Biblical Christianity as evidence by Biblical Christians is simply a joke and carny side-show. No one makes war on side shows; you just laugh at them.

    Phat writes:

    You now preach that Christianity is about what we do versus what we could have done.

    No Phat, I don't preach that; Jesus was the one who according to the stories taught that.

    But then so did the Buddha and Confucius and Lao Tzu hundreds of years before Jesus even existed.


    My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 68 by Phat, posted 07-01-2020 9:03 AM Phat has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 70 by Phat, posted 07-01-2020 9:49 AM jar has responded

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 14132
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.2


    Message 70 of 103 (878535)
    07-01-2020 9:49 AM
    Reply to: Message 69 by jar
    07-01-2020 9:30 AM


    Re: All Things That Are Hidden Will Be Revealed.
    Phat writes:

    You now preach that Christianity is about what we do versus what we could have done.

    jar writes:

    Jesus was the one who according to the stories taught that.

    But then so did the Buddha and Confucius and Lao Tzu hundreds of years before Jesus even existed.

    Finally you come out of the closet. You have basically stated that other religions existed before Jesus. I believe that Jesus was in the Beginning. Before the flipping planet even formed. Note the lie you market. That other religions are older than the living Truth. These lies are from the pits of hell, but you likely will defend your view by stating that all religions are made up by man and that Christianity can claim no special status without evidence for its apologetic claims. You always claim that I market SOURCE before CONTENT. You are correct. If you market CONTENT before SOURCE you effectively cut the Creator of all seen and unseen out of the picture and essentially elevate human wisdom as the compiler and definer of CONTENT.

    I just want the peanut gallery to clearly see the half truths and clever lies that you market. In your defense, you likely dont seek to knowingly deceive people...but the enemy uses you very effectively. I'm starting to see it.

    Edited by Phat, : No reason given.


    “The only way I know to drive out evil from the country is by the constructive method of filling it with good.”Calvin Coolidge
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
    “As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.”-RC Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith

    - You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do.
    Anne Lamott
    I Have Strong Arguments Which I Cant Say To You~CG

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 69 by jar, posted 07-01-2020 9:30 AM jar has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 71 by jar, posted 07-01-2020 9:56 AM Phat has responded

      
    jar
    Member
    Posts: 32654
    From: Texas!!
    Joined: 04-20-2004
    Member Rating: 1.8


    Message 71 of 103 (878536)
    07-01-2020 9:56 AM
    Reply to: Message 70 by Phat
    07-01-2020 9:49 AM


    Re: All Things That Are Hidden Will Be Revealed.
    Phat writes:

    I believe that Jesus was in the Beginning

    LOL

    Sorry Phat but that is not what the Bible stories say or what the Creeds say.

    It is just another example of the Medicine the Medicine Men are selling.

    Phat there is even a story about it in the Bible; where the Holy Spook comes down and rapes the virgin and cuckolds Joseph. Get's told every year. Then seven days after the kid is born he finally gets a name and it isn't Emanuel. Oh, and the kid gets cut that day too.

    Keep running down the Snake Oil path Phat and all the other totally contradictory stuff you compartmentalize will come out.


    My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 70 by Phat, posted 07-01-2020 9:49 AM Phat has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 73 by Phat, posted 07-01-2020 11:16 AM jar has responded

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 14132
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.2


    Message 72 of 103 (878545)
    07-01-2020 11:12 AM
    Reply to: Message 63 by a servant of Christ
    06-24-2020 6:39 AM


    Orthodox, Catholic and Protestant
    CSP writes:

    Roman Catholicism is the one true faith religion

    You have a religious spirit. You worship the symbolism. The rich ornate churches. The beautiful robes and elegant trappings of the presentation. You find solace in the fact that (you claim) Roman Catholicism to be far older (and thus more likely to be true) than you do modern Protestantism, which you likely see as a joke and a lukewarm form of Christianity. Study your History, however. The Book Of Acts is a good place to start.

    Everybody on the planet knows about God. Some see God as a human construct. A sky daddy. A figment of human imagination. Fewer people have "met" God. Critics say these people are exclusive and thus wrong...claiming that the God they would imagine would be inclusive and loving towards all people whether or not those people believed in Him (believers claim this is only possible through Christ since Christ is Gods physical character.)

    The argument gets deeper...but lets focus on Acts.

    Acts 1:1-8 writes:

    The former account I made, O Theophilus, of all that Jesus began both to do and teach, 2 until the day in which He was taken up, after He through the Holy Spirit had given commandments to the apostles whom He had chosen, 3 to whom He also presented Himself alive after His suffering by many infallible proofs, being seen by them during forty days and speaking of the things pertaining to the kingdom of God.

    Note that though Peter was traditionally the most vocal of the Apostles, he was no more special than any of them. In fact, church history tells us that there were 4 other cities besides Rome where the Apostolic succession happened. Jesus never intended for there to be only 5 leaders, however...and certainly not only one. In 1066, as you know, Rome broke from the other four. All of the 120 gathered in the upper room were of one accord. Man invented positional authority structures. With Jesus, it was more of a relational authority structure. Comments so far?

    4 The Holy Spirit Promised

    And being assembled together with them, He commanded them not to depart from Jerusalem, but to wait for the Promise of the Father, "which," He said, "you have heard from Me; 5 for John truly baptized with water, but you shall be baptized with the Holy Spirit not many days from now." 6 Therefore, when they had come together, they asked Him, saying, "Lord, will You at this time restore the kingdom to Israel?" 7 And He said to them, "It is not for you to know times or seasons which the Father has put in His own authority. 8 But you shall receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you; and you shall be witnesses to Me in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the end of the earth."
    NKJV


    “The only way I know to drive out evil from the country is by the constructive method of filling it with good.”Calvin Coolidge
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
    “As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.”-RC Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith

    - You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do.
    Anne Lamott
    I Have Strong Arguments Which I Cant Say To You~CG

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 63 by a servant of Christ, posted 06-24-2020 6:39 AM a servant of Christ has not yet responded

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 14132
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.2


    Message 73 of 103 (878546)
    07-01-2020 11:16 AM
    Reply to: Message 71 by jar
    07-01-2020 9:56 AM


    Re: All Things That Are Hidden Will Be Revealed.
    Its official then. You claim that I am running down the snake oil path. I claim that you are being seduced by snakes. Yes, it will all come out. But I wage war not against flesh and blood but principalities and powers...so I will continue to respect and love everyone here at EvC though I likely wont like those of you who actively oppose my beliefs,behaviors, and posts. You are delusional and yet you claim I am. Stay tuned.

    “The only way I know to drive out evil from the country is by the constructive method of filling it with good.”Calvin Coolidge
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
    “As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.”-RC Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith

    - You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do.
    Anne Lamott
    I Have Strong Arguments Which I Cant Say To You~CG

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 71 by jar, posted 07-01-2020 9:56 AM jar has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 75 by jar, posted 07-01-2020 11:31 AM Phat has responded

      
    ringo
    Member
    Posts: 18322
    From: frozen wasteland
    Joined: 03-23-2005
    Member Rating: 1.8


    Message 74 of 103 (878547)
    07-01-2020 11:26 AM
    Reply to: Message 66 by Phat
    07-01-2020 4:01 AM


    Re: All Things That Are Hidden Will Be Revealed.
    Phat writes:

    ringo writes:

    Holding back the evidence is hiding.


    You call it hiding.

    It is hiding, by definition, literally.

    If you hide behind the curtains when the Jehovah's Witnesses knock on your door, you are withholding evidence of your presence.

    What's wrong with you lately? Lose your dictionary?

    Phat writes:

    Perhaps He calls it not conforming to (or bowing to) YOUR standards.


    Even God doesn't get to have His own "standards" of what words mean. They're OUR words. WE decide what they mean.

    Phat writes:

    Think about it.


    I HAVE thought about it. You'd do well to do some thinking of your own instead of assuming that nobody but those damned apologists have ever thought about anything.

    Phat writes:

    The supposed Creator of all seen and unseen wont provide you with evidence of His existence.


    Why not?

    WHY NOT, for heaven's sake? What has He got to lose?

    Phat writes:

    Yet you wont take a leap of faith.


    Stop lying about me. I took the same leap of faith as you did, as I have told you many times.

    Phat writes:

    You claim He hides from you. He may claim you hide from Him.


    Now that is REALLY stupid. How could I possibly hide from the creator of all that is seen and unseen? You've made up such a hopelessly weak and pathetic god.

    "I'm Fallen and I can't get up!"

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 66 by Phat, posted 07-01-2020 4:01 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

      
    jar
    Member
    Posts: 32654
    From: Texas!!
    Joined: 04-20-2004
    Member Rating: 1.8


    Message 75 of 103 (878548)
    07-01-2020 11:31 AM
    Reply to: Message 73 by Phat
    07-01-2020 11:16 AM


    Re: All Things That Are Hidden Will Be Revealed.
    Support Phat.

    Reasoned argument Phat.

    Evidence Phat.

    Why is it that you never post any of those things?

    You are responding to the following supported arguments,

    quote:
    LOL

    Sorry Phat but that is not what the Bible stories say or what the Creeds say.

    It is just another example of the Medicine the Medicine Men are selling.

    Phat there is even a story about it in the Bible; where the Holy Spook comes down and rapes the virgin and cuckolds Joseph. Get's told every year. Then seven days after the kid is born he finally gets a name and it isn't Emanuel. Oh, and the kid gets cut that day too.


    Are there stories in the Bible about Jesus birth and naming?

    What does the Nicene Creed say?

    These are things that others can and have checked Phat. It's not a matter of any silly seduction by some fantasy snake, it is what is actually written.

    Fold can go and check to see if what I claim is what is actually written in the Bible stories and in the Creeds.

    Why do you and the Apologists insist on making shit up to explain away what is actually written?


    My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 73 by Phat, posted 07-01-2020 11:16 AM Phat has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 76 by Phat, posted 07-02-2020 7:47 AM jar has responded

      
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