Understanding through Discussion


Welcome! You are not logged in. [ Login ]
EvC Forum active members: 86 (8994 total)
72 online now:
PaulK, Pollux, proudly roman catholic, Tangle (4 members, 68 visitors)
Newest Member: Juvenissun
Post Volume: Total: 879,281 Year: 11,029/23,288 Month: 281/1,763 Week: 248/390 Day: 68/69 Hour: 1/6

Announcements: Topic abandonment warning (read and/or suffer the consequences)


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   Evidence For Belief
Phat
Member
Posts: 14289
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 76 of 103 (878596)
07-02-2020 7:47 AM
Reply to: Message 75 by jar
07-01-2020 11:31 AM


Re: All Things That Are Hidden Will Be Revealed.
jar writes:

Support Phat.
Reasoned argument Phat.

Evidence Phat.

In regards as to whether we are in a spiritual war, I present your statement itself regarding the story of the Virgin Birth.
jar writes:

Phat there is even a story about it in the Bible; where the Holy Spook comes down and rapes the virgin and cuckolds Joseph. Get's told every year. Then seven days after the kid is born he finally gets a name and it isn't Emanuel. Oh, and the kid gets cut that day too.

They mocked Jesus before He was crucified. Slapped Him and commanded Him to prophecy. Were we able to ask many of those people why they did it, many would say that a mere man claimed to be God. Jesus Himself would say "Forgive them Father for they know not what they do." He likely would say the same to you for talking smack about His parents.
Folk can go and check to see if what I claim is what is actually written in the Bible stories and in the Creeds.
We have no doubt that it is. Your content is sound. It is the source(You and your own Ego) that is suspect. The Bible may have been written by humans but it was inspired by God. Folk will check and find that I have no evidence to support this assertion. I suggest that they examine the evidence that you have already ridiculed and laughed at--the Apologists. The evidence is the Source itself. Not merely the CONTENT interpreted by teachers who dont even believe that Jesus actually existed, exists, and always will exist.

“The only way I know to drive out evil from the country is by the constructive method of filling it with good.”Calvin Coolidge
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
“As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.”-RC Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith

- You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do.
Anne Lamott
I Have Strong Arguments Which I Cant Say To You~CG

This message is a reply to:
 Message 75 by jar, posted 07-01-2020 11:31 AM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 77 by jar, posted 07-02-2020 8:50 AM Phat has responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 32724
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 77 of 103 (878597)
07-02-2020 8:50 AM
Reply to: Message 76 by Phat
07-02-2020 7:47 AM


Re: All Things That Are Hidden Will Be Revealed.
Phat writes:

Your content is sound. It is the source(You and your own Ego) that is suspect.

Do you ever think before you write?

The source of the content I present is NOT me or my ego, it is what is actually written in the Bible and Nicene Creed and the Venite and Psalms and New Testament.

Phat I did not write any of those, I am not the source.

Phat writes:

Not merely the CONTENT interpreted by teachers who dont even believe that Jesus actually existed, exists, and always will exist.

Again?

It is the Snake-oil salesmen that do the interpreting Phat.

It is the Apologists that try to explain away what is actually written.

And neither you or anyone else has so far explained what "Jesus actually existed, exists, and always will exist" even means.


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 76 by Phat, posted 07-02-2020 7:47 AM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 78 by Phat, posted 07-02-2020 9:03 AM jar has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 14289
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 78 of 103 (878598)
07-02-2020 9:03 AM
Reply to: Message 77 by jar
07-02-2020 8:50 AM


Re: All Things That Are Hidden Will Be Revealed.
And neither you or anyone else has so far explained what "Jesus actually existed, exists, and always will exist" even means.
Is it my fault you never understood it? And how would i explain it to you? If I quoted the book you would accuse me of being simply another apologist. Personally I think that its a shame you were never able to accept Jesus the way that many of us have. You of course will say its a shame that I never use logic, reason and honesty so as to understand reality. But I pray. And GOD, if GOD exists will help me to understand the reality that He created. If not, I will make as good of worm food as anyone else...yourself included.

“The only way I know to drive out evil from the country is by the constructive method of filling it with good.”Calvin Coolidge
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
“As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.”-RC Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith

- You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do.
Anne Lamott
I Have Strong Arguments Which I Cant Say To You~CG

This message is a reply to:
 Message 77 by jar, posted 07-02-2020 8:50 AM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 79 by jar, posted 07-02-2020 9:15 AM Phat has responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 32724
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 79 of 103 (878599)
07-02-2020 9:15 AM
Reply to: Message 78 by Phat
07-02-2020 9:03 AM


Re: All Things That Are Hidden Will Be Revealed.
Phat writes:

Is it my fault you never understood it?

It is certainly your fault that you have not even tried to explain what it means.


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 78 by Phat, posted 07-02-2020 9:03 AM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 80 by Phat, posted 07-02-2020 10:11 AM jar has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 14289
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 80 of 103 (878601)
07-02-2020 10:11 AM
Reply to: Message 79 by jar
07-02-2020 9:15 AM


Re: All Things That Are Hidden Will Be Revealed.
jar writes:

It is certainly your fault that you have not even tried to explain what it means.

Let me just say this much. Evidence for the presence of God through Holy Communion is nott an objective truth. It is not something that everyone can examine. I believe that were salvation simply some formula, everyone would get it who wanted it...and even those who didnt want it or were not willing to change.

This is a stumbling block for many of you here. You believe that God should bee inclusive. That Heaven, if Heaven exists should be open for everyone...without any conditions. That God could care less whether or not you kept your own characteristics, idiosyncrasies, dare I say demons and bad habits. But its not like that. The road is narrow. God wants you to lay 100% of your attitudes,idols, alcohols, etc etc...whatever it is that keeps you stuck and a stumbling block to others. He will transform you. Perhaps this is why you never took that step. You thought it absurd, silly, and a marketing tool of apologetic's. I know you. We may never agree on this. ringo feels the same way you do.

But you have never given homage to transformation. Take Saul/Paul. You saw no transformation.; You claim the man merely switched sides. You obviously have seen no evidence of transformation in any Christian.

Thus in light of this topic, jar sees no evidence that transformation happens.
Phat does.


"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“We must realize that the Reformation world view leads in the direction of government freedom. But the humanist world view with inevitable certainty leads in the direction of statism. This is so because humanists, having no god, must put something at the center, and it is inevitably society, government, or the state.”? Francis A. Schaeffer
***
“The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
? Criss Jami, Killosophy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 79 by jar, posted 07-02-2020 9:15 AM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 81 by jar, posted 07-02-2020 10:21 AM Phat has responded
 Message 82 by ringo, posted 07-02-2020 11:02 AM Phat has not yet responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 32724
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 81 of 103 (878605)
07-02-2020 10:21 AM
Reply to: Message 80 by Phat
07-02-2020 10:11 AM


Re: All Things That Are Hidden Will Be Revealed.
Phat writes:

But you have never given homage to transformation. Take Saul/Paul. You saw no transformation.; You claim the man merely switched sides. You obviously have seen no evidence of transformation in any Christian.

Can you provide evidence of any transformation in any Christian?


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 80 by Phat, posted 07-02-2020 10:11 AM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 83 by Phat, posted 07-02-2020 12:22 PM jar has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 18511
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.6


Message 82 of 103 (878615)
07-02-2020 11:02 AM
Reply to: Message 80 by Phat
07-02-2020 10:11 AM


Re: All Things That Are Hidden Will Be Revealed.
Phat writes:

You believe that God should bee inclusive. That Heaven, if Heaven exists should be open for everyone...without any conditions.


See the prodigal son.

"I'm Fallen and I can't get up!"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 80 by Phat, posted 07-02-2020 10:11 AM Phat has not yet responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 14289
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 83 of 103 (878620)
07-02-2020 12:22 PM
Reply to: Message 81 by jar
07-02-2020 10:21 AM


Re: All Things That Are Hidden Will Be Revealed.
jar writes:

Can you provide evidence of any transformation in any Christian?

How would we go about testing? I can say with confidence that some whom I have known personally were observed to have marked changes in behavior. They stopped drinking, for instance...n ever to drink again as of this writing. They had an improved countenance. They were actually happy and behaved as if they were in love...though there was no girl(or boy). It was evident that it was Jesus whom they were in love with. And I observed that their wisdom increased exponentially through this relationship.

Granted I dont see this transformation with everybody who accepts the call. It is in fact rare.Perhaps one out of ten. It may last a short time with the others.


"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“We must realize that the Reformation world view leads in the direction of government freedom. But the humanist world view with inevitable certainty leads in the direction of statism. This is so because humanists, having no god, must put something at the center, and it is inevitably society, government, or the state.”? Francis A. Schaeffer
***
“The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
? Criss Jami, Killosophy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 81 by jar, posted 07-02-2020 10:21 AM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 84 by jar, posted 07-02-2020 12:46 PM Phat has not yet responded
 Message 85 by AnswersInGenitals, posted 07-02-2020 2:15 PM Phat has responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 32724
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 84 of 103 (878625)
07-02-2020 12:46 PM
Reply to: Message 83 by Phat
07-02-2020 12:22 PM


Re: All Things That Are Hidden Will Be Revealed.
I stopped smoking, so far never to smoke again.

Phat writes:

It was evident that it was Jesus whom they were in love with.

Now that I can understand. I remember when my daughter was totally in love with My Little Pony.

Phat writes:

And I observed that their wisdom increased exponentially through this relationship.

HUH?

What does that even mean Phat?


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 83 by Phat, posted 07-02-2020 12:22 PM Phat has not yet responded

  
AnswersInGenitals
Member
Posts: 569
Joined: 07-20-2006
Member Rating: 2.2


(2)
Message 85 of 103 (878637)
07-02-2020 2:15 PM
Reply to: Message 83 by Phat
07-02-2020 12:22 PM


Re: All Things That Are Hidden Will Be Revealed.
Phat writes:

I observed that their wisdom increased exponentially through this relationship.

Now this is something I can completely understand and agree with. I have observed that anyone who changes their way of thinking and comes to completely agree with me becomes infinitely more intelligent in the process.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 83 by Phat, posted 07-02-2020 12:22 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 86 by Phat, posted 07-02-2020 2:40 PM AnswersInGenitals has not yet responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 14289
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 86 of 103 (878640)
07-02-2020 2:40 PM
Reply to: Message 85 by AnswersInGenitals
07-02-2020 2:15 PM


Re: All Things That Are Hidden Will Be Revealed.
In my case, I did agree with humans early on, but I felt empowered and it was as if I saw the world for the first time. If I had been wise at that time, I would have trusted God 100%, and at that time I thought I did, but these pesky apologists, Pastors, wannabe leaders and other who coveted my newfound obedience began to unknowingly (or knowingly) mislead me and feed me dogma.

I stand by my assessment, however. I changed 100% at that time in my life, and it had little to do with trying to impress the church people....though it did get that way...I was simply too naive to understand what I had accepted and believed---that God was not only alive (experienced in retrospect through the Holy Spirit) but that I had accepted Jesus and as a result I needed no more drugs, alcohol, or crutches to make me feel better.

I observe others having the same change...and I am careful what I teach them. What I most definitely dont do, however, is to tell them that its all a mind trick. Or to throw God away...or realize that human wisdom taught us that Jesus was simply a myth. Why on earth would I want to flow with that "spirit"...that zetgeist? The spirit of the world is at enmity with the Holy Spirit. No apologist needed to confirm that. And it is what keeps you guys in the dark. You simply can't accept that God is real.

jar writes:

What does it mean?

We are discussing what it means. If you recall, I'm challenging your idea that humans made it all up.

Edited by Phat, : spelling


"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“We must realize that the Reformation world view leads in the direction of government freedom. But the humanist world view with inevitable certainty leads in the direction of statism. This is so because humanists, having no god, must put something at the center, and it is inevitably society, government, or the state.”- Francis A. Schaeffer

“The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
- Criss Jami, Killosophy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 85 by AnswersInGenitals, posted 07-02-2020 2:15 PM AnswersInGenitals has not yet responded

  
proudly roman catholic
Member
Posts: 1812
Joined: 01-12-2004
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 87 of 103 (878672)
07-03-2020 1:11 AM


we're biologically hardwired to believe. why would the wiring exist if there was no reason to believe in the first place?

Replies to this message:
 Message 88 by Tangle, posted 07-03-2020 3:19 AM proudly roman catholic has responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 7806
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.8


Message 88 of 103 (878676)
07-03-2020 3:19 AM
Reply to: Message 87 by proudly roman catholic
07-03-2020 1:11 AM


SoC writes:

we're biologically hardwired to believe. why would the wiring exist if there was no reason to believe in the first place?

So much for freewill eh?

It's because we have a conscious brain. We understand that there is a future and we have memory of a past and we understand the idea of agency - that we and others have an influence in our environment and on us.

Because of this brain we are always looking for reasons that things happen so that we can avoid the bad things happening. In the process we invent all sorts of superstitions and spurious explanations and mythologies for things we don't understand.

So our history is littered with thousands of dead gods, hob goblins. witches, fairies and dragons. Do you walk under ladders? Is the number 7 lucky? Can you dowse for water? Can the shaman heal my daughter's cough? Is your dead father looking down on you? Do you have an angel on your right shoulder? Is that bow wave the Loch Ness monster? If you steal a lock of my hair can you use it to put a curse on me? Can a snake talk?

Can I live after death? I really don't want to die.

The primitive world was stuffed full of such nonsense and much of it is still around. Your elaborate religion of bells, smells and pointy hats, of men able to change wine into blood and forgive sins on behalf of a demon that controls life after death - eternal happiness or eternal torture - is just one formalisation of these superstitions.

Luckily our brain has also given us reason and ways of checking and controlling our fantastical explanations of events so that we can separate superstition from fact. And that is why most of these superstitions are in retreat across the developed world.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 87 by proudly roman catholic, posted 07-03-2020 1:11 AM proudly roman catholic has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 89 by proudly roman catholic, posted 07-03-2020 5:16 AM Tangle has responded

  
proudly roman catholic
Member
Posts: 1812
Joined: 01-12-2004
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 89 of 103 (878677)
07-03-2020 5:16 AM
Reply to: Message 88 by Tangle
07-03-2020 3:19 AM


jesus walked on water in four synoptic gospels.

jesus is elevated above superstition.

if you saw a man walking on water, would you believe your eyes? or would you call yourself superstitious?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 88 by Tangle, posted 07-03-2020 3:19 AM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 90 by vimesey, posted 07-03-2020 5:24 AM proudly roman catholic has not yet responded
 Message 91 by jar, posted 07-03-2020 7:21 AM proudly roman catholic has acknowledged this reply
 Message 92 by Tangle, posted 07-03-2020 7:35 AM proudly roman catholic has responded
 Message 95 by ringo, posted 07-03-2020 10:42 AM proudly roman catholic has responded

  
vimesey
Member
Posts: 1152
From: Birmingham, England
Joined: 09-21-2011
Member Rating: 3.5


Message 90 of 103 (878678)
07-03-2020 5:24 AM
Reply to: Message 89 by proudly roman catholic
07-03-2020 5:16 AM


I did - and very impressive it was too:

Dynamo walking on water HQ

Could there be any greater conceit, than for someone to believe that the universe has to be simple enough for them to be able to understand it ?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 89 by proudly roman catholic, posted 07-03-2020 5:16 AM proudly roman catholic has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 98 by AZPaul3, posted 07-03-2020 3:32 PM vimesey has not yet responded

  
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2018 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.0 Beta
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2020