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Author Topic:   The Barrier
GDR
Member
Posts: 5075
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 28 of 67 (848661)
02-12-2019 4:22 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Tangle
02-09-2019 6:07 AM


Tangle writes:

We humans are permanently in a search for answers to everything. Anyone with kids has heard the frustrated question 'but why daddy? from their frustrated child a million times. But people like Mr Bozhart already have the answer. We see it in different forms here a lot, from Faith's biblical inerrancy to Phat's 'I believe this, so there must be some other way to make this work in reality' approach to GDR's rationalisations and plasticity of belief. But in the end it's all the same, they already had the answer and therefore anything that seems to contradict it is wrong. Already 'knowing' the answer is The Barrier to knowledge.


Interesting Tangle that you can't apply this to yourself. When it comes to items of religion you are as dogmatic as anybody on this forum. Also it is interesting that you accuse me of plasticity, and of rejecting ideas that would cause me to adjust my beliefs, all in the same paragraph. .

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Tangle, posted 02-09-2019 6:07 AM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 29 by Tangle, posted 02-12-2019 5:07 PM GDR has responded

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 5075
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 30 of 67 (848665)
02-12-2019 6:16 PM
Reply to: Message 29 by Tangle
02-12-2019 5:07 PM


Tangle writes:

I do apply it to myself and go on to explain how. Trying to remain objective is important to me. I'm certainly dogmatic about many of the things that I've come to feel sure about. But I'll change my mind about anything, all that's necessary is evidence. I'm pretty dogmatic about that too.

I think I can apply that to myself as well. There is the problem though of what constitutes evidence, or sufficient evidence.

Tangle writes:

But this isn't about me - or MtW, or you, or Phat or Faith - it's about how thinking you know the answer to a question prevents you being able be objective about thinking about it. Anything to say about that?

Again, I think this applies to both of us and our views of evidence.

It is my view that we are the result of intelligence and the evidence I use to hold that view is subjective as are your views is that we are simply the result of non-intelligent processes. We have both agreed that although we hold these views are firmly held we could be wrong.

I think also that when you claim that I have to rationalize my views there is some truth to that in having to accept the belief that God is good and loving with the fact of suffering in the world. However, it may be a rationalization but that doesn't mean I am wrong. It does mean though that I understand my vocation as a human, is a vocation of trying to minimize suffering in whatever little way that I am able to achieve through God's love of His creation.

It appears to me that you believe that if something is contrary to known scientific evidence such as the resurrection then it is impossible. As a theist I believe that if we are the result of intelligence then it is quite conceivable that this intelligence could resurrect Jesus in contradiction to the laws of science as we know them.

Both of us have come to our views over time and neither of us have held these views our whole lives. (I believe you have said that earlier.) So we have formed conclusions that form a basis for other issues that come up.

Tangle writes:

You hold very liberal views that have allowed you to reject the parts of the bible that you can not agree with. You tell us this yourself.

Well, to Faith I'm a liberal and to jar I'm a conservative. I think pigeonholing people like that is a fairly useless exercise.

Actually I don't reject any part of the Bible. I do reject the idea that it is ghost written by God. The Bible is written by people who had the inspiration to write down their stories and thoughts as they understood them. When you put them all together as a single narrative they paint a picture of a small beaten down and usually enslaved Nomadic tribe, with their mythologies, stories and ideas about their nation. (God just about always seems to work through the disadvantaged. Jesus was born as the illegitimate child of a peasant class woman.)

When you look at the Bible from a long way up it is a story that climaxes in Jesus and His death and resurrection. After that it is a the first Christian theologians putting together what it all meant in their own words. It is a progressive revelation of a deity that does care about us, does love us, and suffers with us through our trials and tribulations in this life. He leaves us free to accept this as a fundamental truth about our existence or to completely reject it.

So, over my life I have formed those views but have not always held them. I do lose objectivity in discussing the nature of the Christian faith but we all start off with a less than objective view including yourself. It isn't like having a scientific formula that can ultimately be proved or disproved. As I said our views are subjective and so yes, I reject your fundamental atheistic stance as you reject my fundamental Christian stance. Maybe we're both wrong.


He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 29 by Tangle, posted 02-12-2019 5:07 PM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 31 by Tangle, posted 02-13-2019 4:20 AM GDR has responded

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 5075
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 38 of 67 (848692)
02-13-2019 8:08 PM
Reply to: Message 31 by Tangle
02-13-2019 4:20 AM


Tangle writes:

There's no problem with what constitutes evidence. What constitutes sufficient evidence to convince a reasonable person about a conclusive result is a little more problematic but science has some rules about such things. And of course nothing religious has even approached the level of confidence necessary to pass such a test. That is why you have a belief not knowledge.

Essentially I agree but it seems to me that a great many scientific theories are as much a belief as is religious belief. Of course with most scientific theory there is ultimately the hope that it can be proven. Case in point would the the Higg's Bosun.

Tangle writes:

I think not because we know beyond all objective doubt that people do not rise again from the dead. (That is properly dead, dead.). We have not one single confirmed miracle and the biblical accounts of them in your book do not even begin to approach the level of even poor evidence. That's why it's called a belief and it can't be changed by evidence.

Well I contend that the evidence is stronger than you believe it is, but this isn't the thread for that. Also, nobody is suggesting that the resurrection isn't contrary to our understanding of scientific laws. The question really is to ask if scientific laws are absolute, or is it is possible that the laws exist because of an intelligence that brought the laws into existence in the first place, and is capable of suspending them.

Tangle writes:

We also have obvious and apparent everyday evidence of suffering and eventually death in every single piece of 'god's creation' for ever. A human that set up such an experiment would be condemned as the worst kind of evil imaginable. But you shrug that off without effort. That's prior bias very hard at work.

Yes, evil exists, but at the same time there is goodness, beauty, love and joy. Actually it is just as difficult to rationalize that fact that the goodness in the world exists for an atheist, as it is for a theist to rationalize evil.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 31 by Tangle, posted 02-13-2019 4:20 AM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 39 by Tangle, posted 02-14-2019 2:57 AM GDR has responded
 Message 40 by Stile, posted 02-14-2019 10:55 AM GDR has not yet responded
 Message 41 by Theodoric, posted 02-14-2019 12:05 PM GDR has responded

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 5075
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 2.2


(1)
Message 42 of 67 (848739)
02-14-2019 2:54 PM
Reply to: Message 41 by Theodoric
02-14-2019 12:05 PM


Theodoric writes:

Nope

Wrong

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 41 by Theodoric, posted 02-14-2019 12:05 PM Theodoric has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 44 by Theodoric, posted 02-14-2019 3:21 PM GDR has responded

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 5075
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 43 of 67 (848740)
02-14-2019 3:07 PM
Reply to: Message 39 by Tangle
02-14-2019 2:57 AM


Tangle writes:

And yet there is none! None. Not even poor evidence. If there was evidence we could discuss it, but all you've got are some anonimous stories.

As we have for virtually every historical record from 2000 years ago. The accounts were complied to be believed. Paul in his letter to the Corinthians tells how he was writing this while there were still eye witnesses alive. He obviously had contact with the eye witnesses.

Tangle writes:

All you're asking is 'does god exist'? You have no evidence for that belief either.

Intelligent life exists. Why. You can detail how we evolved but so what. You have no evidence that God doesn't exist. We both have our beliefs that aren't answerable by the scientific method.

Tangle writes:

So you have uncontroversial evidence that your god is not omnibenevolent and is, in fact, evil. You can't even deny it, all you can does is make excuses for it.

If you were God and had the choice between bringing about life as we know it or shelving the whole project what would you do? We at least have a world where God's created creatures have the capacity to mitigate some of the suffering. Also the Christian message is that ultimately this world will be renewed and suffering won't be a part of it, which makes all of this a work in progress.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 39 by Tangle, posted 02-14-2019 2:57 AM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 45 by Theodoric, posted 02-14-2019 3:31 PM GDR has responded
 Message 47 by Tangle, posted 02-14-2019 4:59 PM GDR has not yet responded

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 5075
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 46 of 67 (848746)
02-14-2019 3:33 PM
Reply to: Message 44 by Theodoric
02-14-2019 3:21 PM


Theodoric writes:

Stile has already defeated that crap. I can easily say why goodness exists. I do not have to rationalize. My life is immensely joyful because goodness exists. I and a lot of people like me try to bring goodness and happiness into this world, every day.
See how easy that was.
How about you move this to the thread that is not off topic? I think we will have fun with this.

...and Stile's arguments don't hold up. I have gone to another thread as suggested by Stile.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 44 by Theodoric, posted 02-14-2019 3:21 PM Theodoric has not yet responded

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 5075
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 53 of 67 (848791)
02-15-2019 2:23 AM
Reply to: Message 45 by Theodoric
02-14-2019 3:31 PM


GDR writes:

Paul in his letter to the Corinthians tells how he was writing this while there were still eye witnesses alive. He obviously had contact with the eye witnesses.

Theodoric writes:

Please provide the passage. I don't think it says what you think it says.

From 1 Corinthians 15

quote:
3 For what I received I passed on to you as of first importance : that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, 4 that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures, 5 and that he appeared to Cephas, and then to the Twelve. 6 After that, he appeared to more than five hundred of the brothers and sisters at the same time, most of whom are still living, though some have fallen asleep. 7 Then he appeared to James, then to all the apostles, 8 and last of all he appeared to me also, as to one abnormally born. 9 For I am the least of the apostles and do not even deserve to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 45 by Theodoric, posted 02-14-2019 3:31 PM Theodoric has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 55 by Theodoric, posted 02-15-2019 9:55 AM GDR has responded

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 5075
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 57 of 67 (848819)
02-15-2019 9:17 PM
Reply to: Message 55 by Theodoric
02-15-2019 9:55 AM


Theodoric writes:

Yes. The passage I assumed you were referring to. This does not say that any of these people were eyewitnesses to the life of Jesus or his crucifixion. This states that these people had a vision of the Jesus character. Nothing more. Nothing about where the crucifixion was, who the 500 were or when.

Here is what I quoted:

quote:
4 that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures, 5 and that he appeared to Cephas, and then to the Twelve. 6 After that, he appeared to more than five hundred of the brothers and sisters at the same time, most of whom are still living, though some have fallen asleep. 7 Then he appeared to James, then to all the apostles, 8 and last of all he appeared to me also, as to one abnormally born.
Certainly you can reject all this as a fabrication or whatever you like but arguing the way you have done here makes no sense. No where in the scriptures is there a mention of anything but a physical Jesus after the resurrection. Also visions aren't experienced by 500 people at the same time.

Theodoric writes:

Remember Paul is the same guy that said that he has learned of Jesus from no person, just divine revelation.

No. Another shat in the dark that is wrong. From Acts 9:
quote:
19 and after taking some food, he regained his strength. Saul spent several days with the disciples in Damascus. 20 At once he began to preach in the synagogues that Jesus is the Son of God. 21 All those who heard him were astonished and asked, “Isn’t he the man who raised havoc in Jerusalem among those who call on this name? And hasn’t he come here to take them as prisoners to the chief priests?” 22 Yet Saul grew more and more powerful and baffled the Jews living in Damascus by proving that Jesus is the Messiah.

Theodoric writes:

Setting that aside, why does it conflict so much with the gospels and acts?

How does it conflict?

Theodoric writes:

Why is it if Jesus was a historical figure does Paul not mention any of that history? Nothing about the miraculous birth of Jesus, or his famous career, astounding miracles, bold new teachings, circumstances of his death. Nothing about Bethlehem, Nazareth or even Jerusalem and its ties to Jesus.

Primarily Paul's letters are written to the early churches. They were already Christians and got that stuff. Paul is writing as a theologian and writing about things like unity in the church, what that should mean to their lives.

Theodoric writes:

There are no writings from the Jerusalem church or anyone that claimed to be a personal disciple of Jesus. Everything we know about the leaders of the Jerusalem church, Cephas/Peter, James and John comes from Paul. Paul says absolutely nothing about any of them or anyone else traveling around with Jesus.

Another shot in the dark and another blank. Try reading the book of Acts.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 55 by Theodoric, posted 02-15-2019 9:55 AM Theodoric has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 58 by Theodoric, posted 02-15-2019 10:58 PM GDR has responded

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 5075
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 64 of 67 (848966)
02-19-2019 4:07 PM
Reply to: Message 58 by Theodoric
02-15-2019 10:58 PM


Re: Wrong!!
Theodoric writes:

If you were following we were talking about Paul and his writings. You should know that since you are the one that quoted Paul. As we have no idea who wrote Acts or when it was written, it cannot be used as a historical source. You might want to rethink your post because I made it very clear I was talking about Paul and his writings.
Since the writings af Acts are decades after Paul and they conflict with Pauls we can ignore them.

Again. We are talking about the writings of Paul, not Acts.

So. Wrong. Read what Paul wrote not what you want him to have written.

Frankly it makes no sense to argue this with you. Yes we were talking about Paul and you made a comment that it doesn't say he had contact with the first disciples. I showed where it did but then that doesn't count as it wasn't in Paul's epistles but in Acts.

You obviously have little or no knowledge of what is in the Bible and just want to argue your atheistic position. Not really helpful.


He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 58 by Theodoric, posted 02-15-2019 10:58 PM Theodoric has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 65 by Theodoric, posted 02-19-2019 6:23 PM GDR has responded

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 5075
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 66 of 67 (848970)
02-19-2019 7:54 PM
Reply to: Message 65 by Theodoric
02-19-2019 6:23 PM


Re: Wrong!!
Theodoric writes:

Acts was written decades after the death of Paul. It is not history. It does not have anything to corroborate it. You can not use it to claim Paul said he met apostles or that he spoke of a historical Jesus. Paul never speaks of a historical Jesus. It doesn't matter what it says in Acts. We have no idea who wrote Acts or when it was written. I clearly stated that I was talking about Paul's writings.

As I'm sure you know the writer of Acts is the same author as as the Gospel of Luke. In the Gospel of Luke he says this as an opener to Chap 1.
quote:
1 Many have undertaken to draw up an account of the things that have been fulfilled among us, 2 just as they were handed down to us by those who from the first were eyewitnesses and servants of the word. 3 With this in mind, since I myself have carefully investigated everything from the beginning, I too decided to write an orderly account for you, most excellent Theophilus, 4 so that you may know the certainty of the things you have been taught.

He is writing as an eye witness but is reporting previous material which he compiles into an account of what happened. As you notice he makes the claim that the accounts originally eyewitnesses. Obviously this isn't sufficient evidence for you to accept what it is he writes. That may not have come from Paul's writings but it is clear that whoever it was that compiled the accounts traveled with Paul and would have intimate knowledge of Paul's teachings and experience.

How can you say that Paul never spoke about a historical Jesus. It is in everything he wrote. I'll repeat what I quoted earlier.

quote:
3 For what I received I passed on to you as of first importance : that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, 4 that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures, 5 and that he appeared to Cephas, and then to the Twelve. 6 After that, he appeared to more than five hundred of the brothers and sisters at the same time, most of whom are still living, though some have fallen asleep. 7 Then he appeared to James, then to all the apostles, 8 and last of all he appeared to me also, as to one abnormally born
He can hardly have Christ dying if he wasn't referring to Him as a historical figure.

Paul doesn't mention meeting the apostles but that isn't the point of any of his letters. The epistles are all written to specific churches about specific issues and for encouragement.

Theodoric writes:

You are arguing a strawman.

What strawman?
Theodoric writes:

I have extensive knowledge of your bible. I have read it numerous times. I am quite knowledgeable of Christian history.

OK, I apologize, it was just that some of things you said caused me to think otherwise.
The historicity of the jesus character has nothing to do with atheism.
Well, maybe so, but to argue that Jesus never existed is really without any real merit. Certainly the main source of information is the Bible, but the NT is not an account by one individual but many, with no motivation for making it up, in most cases just the opposite in fact. Also the narrative of the NT is consistent with other historical events.

Certainly none of this proves anything and we can accept the NT accounts as historical or not. However, IMHO there is no explanation for the rise of the early church other than for what it is that the NT writers have compiled and recorded for us.


He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 65 by Theodoric, posted 02-19-2019 6:23 PM Theodoric has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 67 by Theodoric, posted 02-19-2019 8:25 PM GDR has not yet responded

  
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