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Author Topic:   The Barrier
Phat
Member
Posts: 12029
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.4


Message 16 of 58 (848623)
02-12-2019 10:23 AM
Reply to: Message 15 by mike the wiz
02-12-2019 8:36 AM


Mikey, thanks for stopping by!
you may be shocked to hear this but I DO appreciate atheists. Generally speaking I find atheists are more sensible, and tend to at least generally, be smarter and more studious that creationists. I even "collect" some logical insights they have.
I do also. I really (usually) enjoy debating with ringo, Tangle, AZPaul3, and PaulK here at EvC. jar is gone for now, and I did get tired of him anyway, for he always had the same argument. He also chastised all of us for not reading (understanding) the Bible the way that he alone seemed to understand it.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
~Stile


This message is a reply to:
 Message 15 by mike the wiz, posted 02-12-2019 8:36 AM mike the wiz has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 23 by mike the wiz, posted 02-12-2019 12:13 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 6607
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 3.9


(1)
Message 17 of 58 (848624)
02-12-2019 10:55 AM
Reply to: Message 14 by mike the wiz
02-12-2019 8:07 AM


MtW writes:

Tangle, do you believe in, or do the readers believe in, "hearing the other side of the story". (Because the way you talk about me here, one would think I had committed a crime in your book by merely existing.)

Welcome back to the dark side Mike. Sorry your normal lecturn is off line.

I'm was on the fairytales site to hear the 'other side' as the other side doesn't seem to want to come here anymore. Although I have heard the otherside's arguments form many years. They don't change sadly.

The example you quoted out-of-context I think most people of ordinary intelligence would realise was a 100% tongue-in-cheek BOAST.

It's a boast alright. As for tongue in cheek - it's an easily seen through ploy. But it's all there to be seen (or used to be) so others can make up their own mind.

Did they [defenses] ah, perhaps spring into action here in this thread my dear fellow? It seems to me you have sprung a tirade rather than a leak, and now your rhetorical spin is all over my shoes.

Yes, they did. I have an allergic reaction to crap but i persevered. I can recognise when I'm reacting against something and try to overcome it. Sometimes it's very, very hard. I spent 4 hours reading multiple threads and much as you think that it's all about you, it isn't. You are very active there so you appear frequently but at least you're not actually obviously insane like some of the others.

CONCLUSION: If the theme of your topic is true, could it be that it most pertains to you? What can't you see about your behaviour which I can, for example? What can I see in your posts, you can't?

I don't think so Mike. It would require some form of mental derangement to believe that the earth was young against all the evidence. Similarly - but perhaps not quite so obviously - with evolution. In those areas the science is quite firm - to believe otherwise simply requires a religious belief, which I don't possess.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 14 by mike the wiz, posted 02-12-2019 8:07 AM mike the wiz has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 19 by mike the wiz, posted 02-12-2019 11:34 AM Tangle has responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 6607
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 3.9


Message 18 of 58 (848626)
02-12-2019 11:11 AM
Reply to: Message 15 by mike the wiz
02-12-2019 8:36 AM


Mike the Toad writes:

toad for example, is a character from Wind in the willows, he is a boastful braggart, I use him as one of my characters, I basically pretend to be him, and the poster, "killur-bluff" already knew I was taking the piss.)

Yes I know that Mike. Like I say, it's a good ruse. The problem is, it's totally transparent that you have an exceptionally high opinion of yourself. For no good reason.

So I apologise if I came across as an, "arse", and shall try to do better in future, and try and listen more.

It's not about listening, it's about thinking. You project this cloud of distorted logic and erronious, convoluted argument. It impresses the sheep but it's nonsense to anyone with a brain and actual knowledge.

The point I'm making is this, you only see me as your enemy not realising I'm not really anyone's enemy.

I do not. Bad ideas and bad thinking are my enemies.

But on a personal level I don't hate atheists.

You're supposed to be a Christian, I'd take that as the base level - why would anyone hate atheisists?

I even appreciate them.

Sheesh. I bet some of your friends are homosexuals too?

Can't we all just get along.

Sure, like I said, this thread isn't about you, it's about the barrier to thinking that religion puts up. If you'd like to contribute to that point, maybe we could make progress. How can knowing the answer not affect your ability to think objectively about a problem?


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 15 by mike the wiz, posted 02-12-2019 8:36 AM mike the wiz has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 20 by mike the wiz, posted 02-12-2019 11:43 AM Tangle has responded

  
mike the wiz
Member
Posts: 4628
From: u.k
Joined: 05-24-2003


Message 19 of 58 (848628)
02-12-2019 11:34 AM
Reply to: Message 17 by Tangle
02-12-2019 10:55 AM


Tangle writes:

I'm was on the fairytales site to hear the 'other side' as the other side doesn't seem to want to come here anymore. Although I have heard the otherside's arguments form many years. They don't change sadly

I wonder why they don't come here any more. Could it be something to do with the 100% focus on personal attack? If you come to EvC these days, you have to be prepared to argue yourself it seems. But if you read Goku, Wibble, Norman and other atheist evolutionists at EFF, their personal attack-content is pretty much 0%.Did you read an exhcange between me and Goku for example? If he read you in this thread he would admit to your transparent snide sneerings. He is an example of how to discuss things sensibly and maturely, that is why I go to EFF, the evolutionists are forced to behave because of the rules, which it seems they are unable to do without adult supervision. Lol

Tangle writes:

I can recognise when I'm reacting against something and try to overcome it. Sometimes it's very, very hard. I spent 4 hours reading multiple threads and much as you think that it's all about you, it isn't. You are very active there so you appear frequently but at least you're not actually obviously insane like some of the others.

I think it's all about me? There is that wonderful humility from atheists again, the assumption they have telepathy.

No, it's not all about me, but you certainly have made this thread all about me.

Tangle writes:

I don't think so Mike. It would require some form of mental derangement to believe that the earth was young against all the evidence. Similarly - but perhaps not quite so obviously - with evolution. In those areas the science is quite firm - to believe otherwise simply requires a religious belief, which I don't possess.

This doesn't specifically have anything to do with what I said. I wasn't referring to a particular topic such as the age of the earth.

Also "mental derangement" inferred from believing the earth is young, obviously doesn't follow and is yet another personal attack to add to your long list of them.

Can't you have a sensible adult exchange without including HATE in every post?

I could respond easily enough of course by saying, "you have to be mentally deranged to believe a cell with more specified complexity and design overall, than anything people can make, MADE ITSELF."

But then if we get into that it just becomes five pages of insulting each others position. Suffice to say, from your subjective perception it takes someone mentally ill. However in reality we can see there are many sane people who don't believe for a moment that beas, cheese, fleas, peahs and hairy knees all happened because a tornado exploded in a junkyard.

It's "trash in, trash out", unfortunately 90% of your posts seem to be trash.

Edited by mike the wiz, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 17 by Tangle, posted 02-12-2019 10:55 AM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 21 by Tangle, posted 02-12-2019 11:47 AM mike the wiz has not yet responded
 Message 27 by dwise1, posted 02-12-2019 3:18 PM mike the wiz has not yet responded

  
mike the wiz
Member
Posts: 4628
From: u.k
Joined: 05-24-2003


Message 20 of 58 (848630)
02-12-2019 11:43 AM
Reply to: Message 18 by Tangle
02-12-2019 11:11 AM


Tangle writes:

The problem is, it's totally transparent that you have an exceptionally high opinion of yourself. For no good reason.

What's this, a jab then an uppercut? This is what it's always about with you, arguing mike. But like I said before, you don't have telepathy. You will like Jar and others, continue to try the psychological warfare, which is all too transparent. God loves a trier eh.

You project this cloud of distorted logic and erronious, convoluted argument. It impresses the sheep but it's nonsense to anyone with a brain and actual knowledge.

So it's "distorted logic" to point out that asserting such things is nothing more than bare assertion and question-begging-epithets?

Do you actually know the percentage content of epithets in your posts, rhetorical spin, and dysphemisms?

Tangle writes:

Sure, like I said, this thread isn't about you, it's about the barrier to thinking that religion puts up. If you'd like to contribute to that point, maybe we could make progress. How can knowing the answer not affect your ability to think objectively about a problem?

Knowing the answer about what? Quote where I made a knowledge claim please.

As for religion being a barrier to thinking, of course it is, because 99.999% of religion is false even for a Christian. One such example I would put up is a belief a tribe had when Christian missionaries came across them, they had a superstition that water was bad, and they couldn't clean in it. I assume they drank from it only. Anyway, when the missionairies corrected this superstition, obviously a lot of the unsanitary effects became diminished.

So the question is, do you assume knowledge and Christianity are mutually exclusive? I find the two are usually in agreement.

"All too easy" - Darth Vader.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 18 by Tangle, posted 02-12-2019 11:11 AM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 22 by Tangle, posted 02-12-2019 12:03 PM mike the wiz has responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 6607
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 3.9


(1)
Message 21 of 58 (848632)
02-12-2019 11:47 AM
Reply to: Message 19 by mike the wiz
02-12-2019 11:34 AM


MtW writes:

It's "trash in, trash out", unfortunately 90% of your posts seem to be trash.

So far you haven't added anything to this thread except to comment on my comments about you. Well ok, you've done that now. So how about actually contributing to the thread?


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 19 by mike the wiz, posted 02-12-2019 11:34 AM mike the wiz has not yet responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 6607
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 3.9


Message 22 of 58 (848636)
02-12-2019 12:03 PM
Reply to: Message 20 by mike the wiz
02-12-2019 11:43 AM


MtW writes:

So the question is, do you assume knowledge and Christianity are mutually exclusive? I find the two are usually in agreement.

Finally we get you off the subject of you and almost onto the topic of the thread. But you don't get to change the question into one you'd rather answer or redirect it back to me. This is the opener. How can knowing the answer before you start not affect your ability to objectively consider it?

I came across this quote from a creationist the other day

quote:
˜Christianity has fought, still fights, and will continue to fight science to the desperate end over evolution, because evolution destroys utterly and finally the very reason Jesus earthly life was supposedly made necessary. Destroy Adam and Eve and the original sin, and in the rubble you will find the sorry remains of the Son of God. If Jesus was not the redeemer who died for our sins, and this is what evolution means, then Christianity is nothing.”
G.R. Bozhart

We humans are permanently in a search for answers to everything. Anyone with kids has heard the frustrated question 'but why daddy? from their frustrated child a million times. But people like Mr Bozhart already have the answer. We see it in different forms here a lot, from Faith's biblical inerrancy to Phat's 'I believe this, so there must be some other way to make this work in reality' approach to GDR's rationalisations and plasticity of belief. But in the end it's all the same, they already had the answer and therefore anything that seems to contradict it is wrong. Already 'knowing' the answer is The Barrier to knowledge.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 20 by mike the wiz, posted 02-12-2019 11:43 AM mike the wiz has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 24 by mike the wiz, posted 02-12-2019 12:17 PM Tangle has responded

  
mike the wiz
Member
Posts: 4628
From: u.k
Joined: 05-24-2003


(1)
Message 23 of 58 (848638)
02-12-2019 12:13 PM
Reply to: Message 16 by Phat
02-12-2019 10:23 AM


Phat writes:

I do also. I really (usually) enjoy debating with ringo, Tangle, AZPaul3, and PaulK here at EvC. jar is gone for now, and I did get tired of him anyway, for he always had the same argument. He also chastised all of us for not reading (understanding) the Bible the way that he alone seemed to understand it.

Hi Phat.

Yes what you have to realise is that we can appreciate them as they are still made by God, but they have never appreciated us and aren't perhaps capable of it. No offence but it seems to me that over the years you never seemed to learn that being nice to them simply won't work. See how I tried it with Tangle, and his response was to be SNIDE in his comments. He should google that word.

You see even when I was willing to be the bigger person and put my hands up, he could only come back at me with snideness.

As far as they are concerned you will never be equal to them, and will always be their focus of hatred.

Unlike you I have embraced that the world hates us because it hates Christ. This is why I don't have to suck up to them as though they are special people. All they are is sinners that are so far up their own arse they can't recognise what light is any more. That is all you have here, a bunch of puny gods that worship themselves as god, and anyone who comes against them is less than them in their eyes. (pride)

Of course SOME aren't so far gone as that. But basically Phat, a pack of wolves will tear your to shreds even if you do offer them your dinner. You are the dinner, and instead of enjoying the flogging and shouting, "turn me over and smack me again Ike", don't you think it would be easier to finally join Evolution fairytale forum instead of indulging in masochism or do you just enjoy the beating?

Ho,ho.

(please take this post lightly Phat, as intended, you know I will and always have been your friend. I hope you are still doing well in keeping off grandpa's cough medicine.

Edited by mike the wiz, : I said "sadism" instead of "masochism".....darn mike, don't type so fast.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 16 by Phat, posted 02-12-2019 10:23 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

Replies to this message:
 Message 25 by ringo, posted 02-12-2019 12:29 PM mike the wiz has not yet responded

  
mike the wiz
Member
Posts: 4628
From: u.k
Joined: 05-24-2003


Message 24 of 58 (848639)
02-12-2019 12:17 PM
Reply to: Message 22 by Tangle
02-12-2019 12:03 PM


Tangle writes:

Finally we get you off the subject of you and almost onto the topic of the thread. But you don't get to change the question into one you'd rather answer or redirect it back to me.

Oh but I am afraid I do Sir. In fact I shall do precisely what I like, when I choose to, as long as I am not breaking the forum rules. And indeed I have done what I have done, AND I did "get to do it".

And right now I feel I am done with this forum for a while.

Oh dear, there's nothing you can do about that is there, except to fire off those eggs and tomatoes on my way out the door.

Edited by mike the wiz, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 22 by Tangle, posted 02-12-2019 12:03 PM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 26 by Tangle, posted 02-12-2019 12:38 PM mike the wiz has not yet responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 16128
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 3.1


Message 25 of 58 (848646)
02-12-2019 12:29 PM
Reply to: Message 23 by mike the wiz
02-12-2019 12:13 PM


mike the wiz writes:

See how I tried it with Tangle, and his response was to be SNIDE in his comments.


I don't see that.

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 23 by mike the wiz, posted 02-12-2019 12:13 PM mike the wiz has not yet responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 6607
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 3.9


(1)
Message 26 of 58 (848649)
02-12-2019 12:38 PM
Reply to: Message 24 by mike the wiz
02-12-2019 12:17 PM


Mike the Wiz writes:

Oh but I am afraid I do Sir. In fact I shall do precisely what I like, when I choose to, as long as I am not breaking the forum rules. And indeed I have done what I have done, AND I did "get to do it".

Well of course you can do what you wish, but if by doing so you simply show to all that you're evading the question, why would you?

The thread as proposed is about belief being a barrier to knowledge. So far you've made several posts that don't address that. Perhaps you could make a start?

And right now I feel I am done with this forum for a while.

I think that would be a letting your side down, don't you think? Leaving before making a single attempt to respond looks like you don't have an answer; surely not so?


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 24 by mike the wiz, posted 02-12-2019 12:17 PM mike the wiz has not yet responded

  
dwise1
Member
Posts: 3282
Joined: 05-02-2006
Member Rating: 7.9


Message 27 of 58 (848659)
02-12-2019 3:18 PM
Reply to: Message 19 by mike the wiz
02-12-2019 11:34 AM


Also "mental derangement" inferred from believing the earth is young, obviously doesn't follow and is yet another personal attack to add to your long list of them.

Really?

I started studying "creation science" in 1981. I very quickly learned that none of the many claims made by creationists were true. In all the decades since then, I have yet to encounter a single creationist claim that is not false.

Do you have a young-earth claim that is valid and true? Please present it.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 19 by mike the wiz, posted 02-12-2019 11:34 AM mike the wiz has not yet responded

    
GDR
Member
Posts: 4772
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 28 of 58 (848661)
02-12-2019 4:22 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Tangle
02-09-2019 6:07 AM


Tangle writes:

We humans are permanently in a search for answers to everything. Anyone with kids has heard the frustrated question 'but why daddy? from their frustrated child a million times. But people like Mr Bozhart already have the answer. We see it in different forms here a lot, from Faith's biblical inerrancy to Phat's 'I believe this, so there must be some other way to make this work in reality' approach to GDR's rationalisations and plasticity of belief. But in the end it's all the same, they already had the answer and therefore anything that seems to contradict it is wrong. Already 'knowing' the answer is The Barrier to knowledge.


Interesting Tangle that you can't apply this to yourself. When it comes to items of religion you are as dogmatic as anybody on this forum. Also it is interesting that you accuse me of plasticity, and of rejecting ideas that would cause me to adjust my beliefs, all in the same paragraph. .

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Tangle, posted 02-09-2019 6:07 AM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 29 by Tangle, posted 02-12-2019 5:07 PM GDR has responded

    
Tangle
Member
Posts: 6607
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 3.9


(1)
Message 29 of 58 (848664)
02-12-2019 5:07 PM
Reply to: Message 28 by GDR
02-12-2019 4:22 PM


GDR writes:

Interesting Tangle that you can't apply this to yourself. When it comes to items of religion you are as dogmatic as anybody on this forum.

I do apply it to myself and go on to explain how. Trying to remain objective is important to me. I'm certainly dogmatic about many of the things that I've come to feel sure about. But I'll change my mind about anything, all that's necessary is evidence. I'm pretty dogmatic about that too.

But this isn't about me - or MtW, or you, or Phat or Faith - it's about how thinking you know the answer to a question prevents you being able be objective about thinking about it. Anything to say about that?

Also it is interesting that you accuse me of plasticity, and of rejecting ideas that would cause me to adjust my beliefs, all in the same paragraph.

That's not an accusation, that's a report. You hold very liberal views that have allowed you to reject the parts of the bible that you can not agree with. You tell us this yourself.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 28 by GDR, posted 02-12-2019 4:22 PM GDR has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 30 by GDR, posted 02-12-2019 6:16 PM Tangle has responded

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 4772
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 30 of 58 (848665)
02-12-2019 6:16 PM
Reply to: Message 29 by Tangle
02-12-2019 5:07 PM


Tangle writes:

I do apply it to myself and go on to explain how. Trying to remain objective is important to me. I'm certainly dogmatic about many of the things that I've come to feel sure about. But I'll change my mind about anything, all that's necessary is evidence. I'm pretty dogmatic about that too.

I think I can apply that to myself as well. There is the problem though of what constitutes evidence, or sufficient evidence.

Tangle writes:

But this isn't about me - or MtW, or you, or Phat or Faith - it's about how thinking you know the answer to a question prevents you being able be objective about thinking about it. Anything to say about that?

Again, I think this applies to both of us and our views of evidence.

It is my view that we are the result of intelligence and the evidence I use to hold that view is subjective as are your views is that we are simply the result of non-intelligent processes. We have both agreed that although we hold these views are firmly held we could be wrong.

I think also that when you claim that I have to rationalize my views there is some truth to that in having to accept the belief that God is good and loving with the fact of suffering in the world. However, it may be a rationalization but that doesn't mean I am wrong. It does mean though that I understand my vocation as a human, is a vocation of trying to minimize suffering in whatever little way that I am able to achieve through God's love of His creation.

It appears to me that you believe that if something is contrary to known scientific evidence such as the resurrection then it is impossible. As a theist I believe that if we are the result of intelligence then it is quite conceivable that this intelligence could resurrect Jesus in contradiction to the laws of science as we know them.

Both of us have come to our views over time and neither of us have held these views our whole lives. (I believe you have said that earlier.) So we have formed conclusions that form a basis for other issues that come up.

Tangle writes:

You hold very liberal views that have allowed you to reject the parts of the bible that you can not agree with. You tell us this yourself.

Well, to Faith I'm a liberal and to jar I'm a conservative. I think pigeonholing people like that is a fairly useless exercise.

Actually I don't reject any part of the Bible. I do reject the idea that it is ghost written by God. The Bible is written by people who had the inspiration to write down their stories and thoughts as they understood them. When you put them all together as a single narrative they paint a picture of a small beaten down and usually enslaved Nomadic tribe, with their mythologies, stories and ideas about their nation. (God just about always seems to work through the disadvantaged. Jesus was born as the illegitimate child of a peasant class woman.)

When you look at the Bible from a long way up it is a story that climaxes in Jesus and His death and resurrection. After that it is a the first Christian theologians putting together what it all meant in their own words. It is a progressive revelation of a deity that does care about us, does love us, and suffers with us through our trials and tribulations in this life. He leaves us free to accept this as a fundamental truth about our existence or to completely reject it.

So, over my life I have formed those views but have not always held them. I do lose objectivity in discussing the nature of the Christian faith but we all start off with a less than objective view including yourself. It isn't like having a scientific formula that can ultimately be proved or disproved. As I said our views are subjective and so yes, I reject your fundamental atheistic stance as you reject my fundamental Christian stance. Maybe we're both wrong.


He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 29 by Tangle, posted 02-12-2019 5:07 PM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 31 by Tangle, posted 02-13-2019 4:20 AM GDR has responded

    
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