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Author Topic:   A Different Creation Model
GDR
Member (Idle past 15 days)
Posts: 5410
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005


Message 1 of 20 (849134)
02-25-2019 2:27 PM


I like to read and find ways of getting my head around things. I have my theistic beliefs, but I look to science to modify my beliefs. Creation has always presented a conundrum and this highly speculative theory has come out of all that.

A literal reading of Genesis makes no sense. We didn’t actually even need science to see that. Science itself provides no real explanation except that it all started with the big bang and somehow evolved from there. I’d like to suggest another model of creation that is strictly speculative but seems to me to make sense.

I’d like to start with this article. What's 96 Percent of the Universe Made Of? The universe as we perceive it is apparently only 4% of what actually exists. Science has shown us that there is a whole lot more out there.

The 4% of all that is then, is the 4% that we are able to perceive with our 5 senses. Our theories on the 96% are based not of our perception of the 96%, but of its affect on the 4% we can perceive. Largely we are photon detectors. It seems to me reasonable to speculate that with different senses we would likely perceive a very different universe. For example if we didn’t have the sense of vision our perceived universe would be a lot less than the 4% that we actually can perceive. Also, if we didn’t have vision we would have no frame of reference to even consider the possibility of vision.

Are there other senses possible that would give us a very different perception of the universe, or an expanded perception of universe?

I read somewhere that our universe is an “emergent property of a greater reality”. If that is the case then it is reasonable to assume that our perception of creation is actually not of a creation of something from nothing. Creation of our perceived universe would actually be creation through evolutionary processes of creatures that were able to perceive a particular aspect of that creation, without directly perceiving the remaining 96%.

If anyone is actually interested in my musings this could go in all sorts of directions, and I'd enjoy hearing your thoughts. I have my fingers in a lot of pies so I don’t always have time for EvC but I’ll do my best to keep up.

I don’t really see a great fit for where this should go, but I suppose “Big Bang and Cosmology” might be the best fit. Whatever one of you moderators decide is fine by me.


He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


Replies to this message:
 Message 2 by GDR, posted 02-25-2019 2:47 PM GDR has not yet responded
 Message 14 by caffeine, posted 02-26-2019 1:38 PM GDR has responded

  
GDR
Member (Idle past 15 days)
Posts: 5410
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005


Message 2 of 20 (849135)
02-25-2019 2:47 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by GDR
02-25-2019 2:27 PM


I din't mean for this to go into the coffee house. I thought I was putting it in proposed new topic.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by GDR, posted 02-25-2019 2:27 PM GDR has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 3 by Tangle, posted 02-25-2019 3:44 PM GDR has responded

  
GDR
Member (Idle past 15 days)
Posts: 5410
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005


(1)
Message 5 of 20 (849139)
02-25-2019 8:15 PM
Reply to: Message 3 by Tangle
02-25-2019 3:44 PM


Tangle writes:

Our naked senses can detect an almost infinitesimally small amount of the universe - a negligible amount.
The 4% we think we know about and the 96% that we don't is mostly deduced from mathematics, based on instruments that detect stuff that we are unable to unaided. We'll probably work out what the rest is in a generation or so. So then we'll know.
I don't know where that gets you?


I guess if it takes generations that leaves us out of knowing the answer.
There was a headline on the front page of Scientific American a few years back that read like this:
quote:
Hidden Worlds of Dark Matter – An entire universe may be silently interwoven with our own
The actual article ended up like this:
quote:
After all, visible matter comprises a rich spectrum of particles with multiple interactions determined by beautiful underlying symmetry principles, and nothing suggests that dark matter and dark energy should be any different. We may not encounter dark stars, planets or people, but just as we could hardly imagine the solar system without Neptune, Pluto and the swarm of objects that lie even further out, one day we might not be able to conceive of a universe without an intricate and fascinating dark world.

We understand the dark world primarily because of its gravitational affect on us. However with my minimal understanding of conceptual QM I believe that particles disappear from our perceived universe while others appear. Maybe our existence is far more interwoven with the dark universe than we currently realize.

Going back to creation then, it seems reasonable to speculate that maybe the totality of all that is might be far grander than we currently are able to understand. Maybe the totality is infinite and ultimately isn’t subject to the entropy that we experience now. As we know it is meaningless to talk about time before the Big Bang it seems to me that if the totality is infinite it would explain just why it is that there was no time before the Big Bang. Time as we perceive it could just be a component of our little 4% corner of the totality, and creation isn’t about matter as we know it, but about the evolutionary creation of beings that are able to perceive life as we know it.


He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 3 by Tangle, posted 02-25-2019 3:44 PM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 6 by Tangle, posted 02-26-2019 2:19 AM GDR has responded
 Message 7 by Phat, posted 02-26-2019 7:22 AM GDR has responded

  
GDR
Member (Idle past 15 days)
Posts: 5410
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005


Message 16 of 20 (849161)
02-26-2019 7:55 PM
Reply to: Message 6 by Tangle
02-26-2019 2:19 AM


GDR writes:

Maybe the totality is infinite and ultimately isn’t subject to the entropy that we experience now. As we know it is meaningless to talk about time before the Big Bang it seems to me that if the totality is infinite it would explain just why it is that there was no time before the Big Bang.

Tangle writes:

Basically you can invent anything here you like. But I'm not sure why you would.

Why does anybody suggest anything? I'm glad that science proposes things that sound outlandish, and then go out and try and prove it. I'm not in a position to prove anything but that shouldn't stop me from presenting ideas and seeing what other people think. Isn't that kinda the point of this forum?

Tangle writes:

I think you need to start again with this 4% business. You're taking it too literally. We can't percieve the 4%. We have only deduced it. To all intents and purposes, rounded to the nearest whole number our senses tell us about 0% of the universe. Our intelligence has calculated to 4% (if that's the right number.)

Please explain further. I understand the 4% to be that which we are able to perceive by our 5 senses.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 6 by Tangle, posted 02-26-2019 2:19 AM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 19 by Tangle, posted 02-27-2019 3:05 AM GDR has not yet responded
 Message 20 by NosyNed, posted 02-27-2019 11:27 AM GDR has not yet responded

  
GDR
Member (Idle past 15 days)
Posts: 5410
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005


Message 17 of 20 (849162)
02-26-2019 8:04 PM
Reply to: Message 7 by Phat
02-26-2019 7:22 AM


Re: Jesus As Observer
Phat writes:

GDR, I can appreciate your continuing efforts to somehow tie your beliefs in with current theories of physics, science, and cosmology. Tangle may consider us a bit odd, but I appreciate that he attempts to go along with it all and offer his viewpoint without the clutter that our "religious pin-holing" applies to the discussion. My contribution is a pet theory that I developed after I read about the Observer Effect in quantum mechanics. I basically came up with the notion of Jesus (as the only human being believed to exist through eternal time) being necessary as the "observer" that changed the essential nature of the behavior of all electrons during the formation of the universe as we know it. Am I as whacky as some of the newbies that post in the science threads around here?

Thanks Phat. I see the Bible as only one place where we can learn about God, but that we are can also learn about good from other people, creation itself and our own perceptions. In the end it is about belief, faith and how we view our role in this world.

In the OP I do see an argument that could be made about how God might have created and might connect with our world. However, even if it is correct it would not rule out an atheistic answer. It would however answer some questions about basic theism.


He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 7 by Phat, posted 02-26-2019 7:22 AM Phat has not yet responded

  
GDR
Member (Idle past 15 days)
Posts: 5410
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005


Message 18 of 20 (849163)
02-26-2019 8:10 PM
Reply to: Message 14 by caffeine
02-26-2019 1:38 PM


caffeine writes:

As pointed out above by Tangle, we don't really perceive most of the 4%. Our understanding of it is based on its effects on the infinitesimal fraction of reality we do perceive. There are indeed different senses perceiving different parts of reality - there are animals which can directly sense changes in magnetic or electrical fields that we can't; there are animals that can see wavelengths of light that we can't, there are animals that can detect all manner of chemical traces that we can't. All of this stuff would be within the 4%, though - that's how we're able to understand it.

Thanks for that. With the dawn of modern science the world keeps sounder stranger and stranger.

I often wonder if animals don't have a sense or senses that we know absolutely nothing about. Right off topic is the fact that it is heartbreaking the way our animals are abused and particularly the ones that are destined for our dinner tables.


He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 14 by caffeine, posted 02-26-2019 1:38 PM caffeine has acknowledged this reply

  
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