Understanding through Discussion


Welcome! You are not logged in. [ Login ]
EvC Forum active members: 76 (8908 total)
Current session began: 
Page Loaded: 05-23-2019 3:06 AM
28 online now:
Minnemooseus (Adminnemooseus), PaulK, Pollux, Pressie (4 members, 24 visitors)
Chatting now:  Chat room empty
Newest Member: WeloTemo
Post Volume:
Total: 851,885 Year: 6,921/19,786 Month: 1,462/1,581 Week: 284/393 Day: 8/99 Hour: 1/4


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Prev12
3
4Next
Author Topic:   Religion Decline in US
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 6131
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.3


Message 31 of 50 (850942)
04-17-2019 12:02 PM
Reply to: Message 23 by FLRW
04-16-2019 8:54 PM


Re: But It Will Never Go Away
The whole letter is very interesting. He vehemently disagrees with the philosopher he is writing to.

quote:
In general I find it painful that you claim a privileged position and try to defend it by two walls of pride, an external one as a man and an internal one as a Jew. As a man you claim, so to speak, a dispensation from causality otherwise accepted, as a Jew the privilege of monotheism. But a limited causality is no longer a causality at all, as our wonderful Spinoza recognized with all incision, probably as the first one. And the animistic interpretations of the religions of nature are in principle not annulled by monopolization. With such walls we can only attain a certain self-deception, but our moral efforts are not furthered by them. On the contrary.

http://www.lettersofnote.com/...oduct-of-human-weakness.html

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up why would you have to lie?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 23 by FLRW, posted 04-16-2019 8:54 PM FLRW has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 33 by Thugpreacha, posted 04-18-2019 6:20 AM Theodoric has not yet responded

    
dwise1
Member
Posts: 3454
Joined: 05-02-2006
Member Rating: 5.3


(2)
Message 32 of 50 (850952)
04-17-2019 2:36 PM
Reply to: Message 25 by Faith
04-17-2019 10:29 AM


Re: But It Will Never Go Away
One wonders how so many millions could have been persuaded to believe given that your opinion is certainly the most common.

Ah, so it's up to a vote in your opinion. The religion with the most believers wins.

Well then obviously Hinduism wins! Many more millions believers for thousands more years than Christianity's paltry numbers. And that's not even considering Buddhism with so many millions of followers throughout Southern and Eastern Asia for longer than Christianity has even existed.

It's kind of like the old joke that we should all eat manure "because 100 million flies cannot be wrong." Obviously the validity or truth of an idea is not determined by the number of adherents, so that is an invalid argument. But, like too many other Christian apologists, that is the false argument that you are making.

You have made your cow plop so you must lie in it.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 25 by Faith, posted 04-17-2019 10:29 AM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 36 by Faith, posted 04-18-2019 12:37 PM dwise1 has responded

    
Thugpreacha
Member
Posts: 12297
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 33 of 50 (850965)
04-18-2019 6:20 AM
Reply to: Message 31 by Theodoric
04-17-2019 12:02 PM


Re: But It Will Never Go Away
That letter is so good, im going to post it in full:
quote:
Princeton, 3. 1. 1954

Dear Mr Gutkind,

Inspired by Brouwer's repeated suggestion, I read a great deal in your book, and thank you very much for lending it to me. What struck me was this: with regard to the factual attitude to life and to the human community we have a great deal in common. Your personal ideal with its striving for freedom from ego-oriented desires, for making life beautiful and noble, with an emphasis on the purely human element. This unites us as having an "unAmerican attitude."

Still, without Brouwer's suggestion I would never have gotten myself to engage intensively with your book because it is written in a language inaccessible to me. The word God is for me nothing more than the expression and product of human weakness, the Bible a collection of honorable, but still purely primitive, legends which are nevertheless pretty childish. No interpretation, no matter how subtle, can change this for me. For me the Jewish religion like all other religions is an incarnation of the most childish superstition. And the Jewish people to whom I gladly belong, and whose thinking I have a deep affinity for, have no different quality for me than all other people. As far as my experience goes, they are also no better than other human groups, although they are protected from the worst cancers by a lack of power. Otherwise I cannot see anything "chosen" about them.

In general I find it painful that you claim a privileged position and try to defend it by two walls of pride, an external one as a man and an internal one as a Jew. As a man you claim, so to speak, a dispensation from causality otherwise accepted, as a Jew the privilege of monotheism. But a limited causality is no longer a causality at all, as our wonderful Spinoza recognized with all incision, probably as the first one. And the animistic interpretations of the religions of nature are in principle not annulled by monopolization. With such walls we can only attain a certain self-deception, but our moral efforts are not furthered by them. On the contrary.

Now that I have quite openly stated our differences in intellectual convictions it is still clear to me that we are quite close to each other in essential things, i.e; in our evaluations of human behavior. What separates us are only intellectual "props" and "rationalization" in Freud's language. Therefore I think that we would understand each other quite well if we talked about concrete things.

With friendly thanks and best wishes,

Yours,

A. Einstein


What jumps out at me is this phrase: As a man you claim, so to speak, a dispensation from causality otherwise accepted,...

Can anyone shed any light on what that means?


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
~Stile


This message is a reply to:
 Message 31 by Theodoric, posted 04-17-2019 12:02 PM Theodoric has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 50 by Stile, posted 04-22-2019 8:40 AM Thugpreacha has not yet responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 16464
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 34 of 50 (850980)
04-18-2019 12:24 PM
Reply to: Message 25 by Faith
04-17-2019 10:29 AM


Re: But It Will Never Go Away
Faith writes:

And of course your totally made up opinion is far more trustworthy than two thousand years of believers' views.


I'll point out again, since you keep forgetting, that for at least half of that two thousand years the prevailing view was Catholic. We know how you love to be inclusive when it suits you.

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 25 by Faith, posted 04-17-2019 10:29 AM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 35 by Faith, posted 04-18-2019 12:30 PM ringo has responded

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 31317
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 35 of 50 (850983)
04-18-2019 12:30 PM
Reply to: Message 34 by ringo
04-18-2019 12:24 PM


Re: But It Will Never Go Away
There were even some true Christians in the Catholic Church despite its aggressive pagan superstitiousness, but outside that institution there were in fact millions of true Christians, many of them hiding away in the mountains where nevertheless the RCC would pursue them and slaughter them from time to time. God always keeps a remnant of the true believers alive from generation to generation. Those outside the RCC sent out missionaries to teach the truth and they did eventually change the views of the people, who were ready for the Reformation when it came.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 34 by ringo, posted 04-18-2019 12:24 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 37 by Theodoric, posted 04-18-2019 1:00 PM Faith has not yet responded
 Message 38 by ringo, posted 04-18-2019 1:13 PM Faith has responded

    
Faith
Member
Posts: 31317
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 36 of 50 (850984)
04-18-2019 12:37 PM
Reply to: Message 32 by dwise1
04-17-2019 2:36 PM


Re: But It Will Never Go Away
Of course I'm not tallying numbers of believers by vote but by what I know is the true doctrine.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 32 by dwise1, posted 04-17-2019 2:36 PM dwise1 has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 43 by dwise1, posted 04-18-2019 2:23 PM Faith has responded

    
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 6131
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.3


Message 37 of 50 (850990)
04-18-2019 1:00 PM
Reply to: Message 35 by Faith
04-18-2019 12:30 PM


Re: But It Will Never Go Away
And no historical evidence again for your ramblings

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up why would you have to lie?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 35 by Faith, posted 04-18-2019 12:30 PM Faith has not yet responded

    
ringo
Member
Posts: 16464
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 38 of 50 (850994)
04-18-2019 1:13 PM
Reply to: Message 35 by Faith
04-18-2019 12:30 PM


Re: But It Will Never Go Away
Faith writes:

Those outside the RCC sent out missionaries to teach the truth and they did eventually change the views of the people, who were ready for the Reformation when it came.


But the Reformation came from inside the Catholic Church: Calvin, Knox, Luther, Tyndale, Wycliffe, Zwingli, etc. were all Catholic priests, weren't they?

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 35 by Faith, posted 04-18-2019 12:30 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 39 by Faith, posted 04-18-2019 1:22 PM ringo has responded

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 31317
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 39 of 50 (850997)
04-18-2019 1:22 PM
Reply to: Message 38 by ringo
04-18-2019 1:13 PM


Re: But It Will Never Go Away
But the Reformation came from inside the Catholic Church: Calvin, Knox, Luther, Tyndale, Wycliffe, Zwingli, etc. were all Catholic priests, weren't they?

Gosh, you don't say! What a surprise! The Hiding Dissidents recognized the work the Reformers were doing and the Reformers recognized the Dissidents as precursors of their work. The newly invented printing press helped get the word out to all segments of society. What does inside or out matter? All those who followed the Reformation had been inside the RCC too before they all came out. Golly Gosh, revelation upon revelation.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 38 by ringo, posted 04-18-2019 1:13 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 40 by ringo, posted 04-18-2019 1:43 PM Faith has responded

    
ringo
Member
Posts: 16464
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 40 of 50 (851006)
04-18-2019 1:43 PM
Reply to: Message 39 by Faith
04-18-2019 1:22 PM


Re: But It Will Never Go Away
Faith writes:

The Hiding Dissidents recognized the work the Reformers were doing and the Reformers recognized the Dissidents as precursors of their work.


So name those hiding dissidents. And explain why they are not the prominent names in the Reformation.

Faith writes:

What does inside or out matter?


What matters is that you claimed the reforms came from outside the Church and, as far as I can tell, that is false.

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 39 by Faith, posted 04-18-2019 1:22 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 41 by Faith, posted 04-18-2019 1:49 PM ringo has responded
 Message 47 by Thugpreacha, posted 04-21-2019 10:24 AM ringo has responded

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 31317
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 41 of 50 (851011)
04-18-2019 1:49 PM
Reply to: Message 40 by ringo
04-18-2019 1:43 PM


Re: But It Will Never Go Away
I didn't claim the Reformation came from outside the Church. They were all Catholic priests who became Protestants through their study of the Bible. But that is also how the dissidents originally became dissidents: by reading the Bible. The Waldensians lived high in the Alps, I don't think the Albigensians had a hiding place but I'm not sure, or the Bogomils or some other groups I'm probably forgetting. Oh the Lollards. And their doctrine wasn't perfect either but it was biblical and they all knew that the RCC was the Antichrist system. The Reformation cleaned up the doctrine and also recognized the papacy as the Antichrist system.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 40 by ringo, posted 04-18-2019 1:43 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 42 by ringo, posted 04-18-2019 2:06 PM Faith has responded

    
ringo
Member
Posts: 16464
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 42 of 50 (851021)
04-18-2019 2:06 PM
Reply to: Message 41 by Faith
04-18-2019 1:49 PM


Re: But It Will Never Go Away
Faith writes:

I didn't claim the Reformation came from outside the Church.


InMessage 35 you said, "Those outside the RCC sent out missionaries to teach the truth and they did eventually change the views of the people, who were ready for the Reformation when it came."

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 41 by Faith, posted 04-18-2019 1:49 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 45 by Faith, posted 04-18-2019 8:39 PM ringo has responded

  
dwise1
Member
Posts: 3454
Joined: 05-02-2006
Member Rating: 5.3


(1)
Message 43 of 50 (851029)
04-18-2019 2:23 PM
Reply to: Message 36 by Faith
04-18-2019 12:37 PM


Re: But It Will Never Go Away
Of course I'm not tallying numbers of believers by vote ...

Bullfrog! Stop dissembling!

Your Message 25 was completely based on an idea being more truth because there have been more believers in that idea than in another.

... but by what I know is the true doctrine.

And yet everything that you say and do proves that your doctrine is false. Refer to the Matthew 7:20 Test. Also the personal test in Galatians 5:22-23.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 36 by Faith, posted 04-18-2019 12:37 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 44 by Faith, posted 04-18-2019 8:38 PM dwise1 has not yet responded

    
Faith
Member
Posts: 31317
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 44 of 50 (851065)
04-18-2019 8:38 PM
Reply to: Message 43 by dwise1
04-18-2019 2:23 PM


Re: But It Will Never Go Away
No, you are wrong.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 43 by dwise1, posted 04-18-2019 2:23 PM dwise1 has not yet responded

    
Faith
Member
Posts: 31317
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 45 of 50 (851066)
04-18-2019 8:39 PM
Reply to: Message 42 by ringo
04-18-2019 2:06 PM


Re: But It Will Never Go Away
Yes, read what I wrote. The missionaries didn't bring the Reformation but they had a role in changing people's minds so they were ready for it.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 42 by ringo, posted 04-18-2019 2:06 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 46 by ringo, posted 04-20-2019 12:12 PM Faith has not yet responded

    
Prev12
3
4Next
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2018 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.0 Beta
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2019