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Author Topic:   What would a transitional fossil look like?
Tanypteryx
Member
Posts: 2782
From: Oregon, USA
Joined: 08-27-2006
Member Rating: 5.8


(1)
Message 43 of 403 (850363)
04-06-2019 6:05 PM
Reply to: Message 34 by Faith
04-06-2019 3:42 PM


It really doesn't matter what you want to descend from what.

It matters to us, because we are looking at data that show what the most likely lines of descent are. The data are both molecular and paleontological.

It is silly for you to carry on an argument about fantasy evolutionary events as if we are arguing for a position that you made up.

It's impossible unless the genetic stuff is already present for the completely new creature.

The only kind of "completely new creature" is a normal baby that is created by the mating of a male and female and that carries a few mutations of the mix of parent's genes. It is a brand new baby where one didn't exist before.

For instance getting a human being from a chimpanzee is equally impossible.

This is absolutely true, of course. Why would you use this as an example when only an idiot would think otherwise?

Each has its own genome that makes the given creature and nothing else.

Obviously. Why would you use this as an example when only an idiot would think otherwise?

To get from the chimpanzee to the human being requires a whole slew of changes into something altogether different from the chimpanzee,

And none of us are arguing this has happened, so why are you acting as if this is our position?

things that don't exist in the chimpanzee genome and that makes any such transformation impossible

And interestingly, none of us are arguing that, so why are you acting as if this is our position?

because mutation has to invent something completely new rather than simply changing something that already exists into another version of it which is already potential in the genome anyway.

I can't tell what this means.

If you think this is our position you are wrong.

If this is your position it is still wrong.

You all imagine it's possible because of some similarities between them and that's the extent of the whole story. Your imagination.

Your ability to read our imaginations is as faulty as your ability to accurately describe or indeed understand our position on evolution or transitional fossils.


What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python

One important characteristic of a theory is that is has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie

If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --percy

The reason that we have the scientific method is because common sense isn't reliable. -- Taq


This message is a reply to:
 Message 34 by Faith, posted 04-06-2019 3:42 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 46 by Faith, posted 04-06-2019 6:29 PM Tanypteryx has responded

  
Tanypteryx
Member
Posts: 2782
From: Oregon, USA
Joined: 08-27-2006
Member Rating: 5.8


Message 47 of 403 (850370)
04-06-2019 6:43 PM
Reply to: Message 46 by Faith
04-06-2019 6:29 PM


Faith writes:

Tanypteryx writes:

It matters to us, because we are looking at data that show what the most likely lines of descent are. The data are both molecular and paleontological.


But the conclusion you draw is purely imaginary.

Oh, good one.

All the things you imagine we conclude are completely incorrect as I pointed out. Have you gone completely daft?


What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python

One important characteristic of a theory is that is has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie

If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --percy

The reason that we have the scientific method is because common sense isn't reliable. -- Taq


This message is a reply to:
 Message 46 by Faith, posted 04-06-2019 6:29 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 50 by Faith, posted 04-06-2019 11:05 PM Tanypteryx has responded

  
Tanypteryx
Member
Posts: 2782
From: Oregon, USA
Joined: 08-27-2006
Member Rating: 5.8


Message 51 of 403 (850380)
04-07-2019 12:04 AM
Reply to: Message 50 by Faith
04-06-2019 11:05 PM


Tanypteryx writes:

Faith writes:

Tanypteryx writes:

It matters to us, because we are looking at data that show what the most likely lines of descent are. The data are both molecular and paleontological.


But the conclusion you draw is purely imaginary.

Oh, good one.

All the things you imagine we conclude are completely incorrect as I pointed out. Have you gone completely daft?

You were talking about tracking the line of descent. I'm saying that's imaginary no matter what your data, the only line of descent possible is variation within the genome, it is not possible to get anything outside the genome which is what is necessary for one species to descend from another.

OK, so that is a yes, you are completely daft.


What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python

One important characteristic of a theory is that is has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie

If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --percy

The reason that we have the scientific method is because common sense isn't reliable. -- Taq


This message is a reply to:
 Message 50 by Faith, posted 04-06-2019 11:05 PM Faith has not yet responded

  
Tanypteryx
Member
Posts: 2782
From: Oregon, USA
Joined: 08-27-2006
Member Rating: 5.8


(1)
Message 91 of 403 (850571)
04-10-2019 2:50 PM
Reply to: Message 84 by Faith
04-10-2019 2:24 PM


Re: combined response
Faith writes:

My faith does not dictate how I think about these things, that's just a convenient way for you to dismiss anything I say.

Actually we can dismiss everything you have to say because it's all bullshit.

Faith writes:

New features that occur within the genome of the creature are just variations on what is already there, not truly new.

So what? Is there some rule that says changes in the genome must meet some "truly new" standard?

Faith writes:

Not new in any sense that could justify the claims of the ToE with its species-to-species assumptions.

What specific claims of the ToE are you referring to?

Faith writes:

Just the usual semantics that keep the ToE alive in your mind although if the actual facts were recognized it would be shown to be dead.

Imagine our surprise if you ever presented any actual facts. That would be the perfect way to kill it.


What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python

One important characteristic of a theory is that is has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie

If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --percy

The reason that we have the scientific method is because common sense isn't reliable. -- Taq


This message is a reply to:
 Message 84 by Faith, posted 04-10-2019 2:24 PM Faith has not yet responded

  
Tanypteryx
Member
Posts: 2782
From: Oregon, USA
Joined: 08-27-2006
Member Rating: 5.8


(1)
Message 96 of 403 (850629)
04-11-2019 11:25 AM
Reply to: Message 94 by RAZD
04-11-2019 8:31 AM


Re: another combined response
RAZD writes:

Faith writes:

... but if they meet some questionable standard of newness you call them evolution in the ToE sense. ...

The "standard" is simple: did it exist before in the breeding population? If yes, then it is new. Not difficult.

Maybe I am missing something, but shouldn't that be "If no, then it is new."?


What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python

One important characteristic of a theory is that is has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie

If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --percy

The reason that we have the scientific method is because common sense isn't reliable. -- Taq


This message is a reply to:
 Message 94 by RAZD, posted 04-11-2019 8:31 AM RAZD has acknowledged this reply

  
Tanypteryx
Member
Posts: 2782
From: Oregon, USA
Joined: 08-27-2006
Member Rating: 5.8


(1)
Message 99 of 403 (850657)
04-11-2019 1:07 PM
Reply to: Message 97 by Faith
04-11-2019 12:38 PM


Re: another combined response
Faith writes:

resulting in two reproductively isolated populations of crows, which is not speciation.

If it continues long enough, of course it is speciation.

The erroneous assertions of an ignorant creationist has absolutely no effect on science or how scientists document their observations.

Faith writes:

Or would you call a population of human beings isolated on an island for a couple hundred years speciation? I thought not.

It is ridiculously silly to try to draw conclusions from a comparison of birds and humans, with regard to how long speciation takes.

If you don't know that, then maybe you need to do a lot more study. Yeah, I know that's not going to happen, since knowledge is not something you are interested in.


What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python

One important characteristic of a theory is that is has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie

If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --percy

The reason that we have the scientific method is because common sense isn't reliable. -- Taq


This message is a reply to:
 Message 97 by Faith, posted 04-11-2019 12:38 PM Faith has not yet responded

  
Tanypteryx
Member
Posts: 2782
From: Oregon, USA
Joined: 08-27-2006
Member Rating: 5.8


(2)
Message 117 of 403 (850705)
04-12-2019 4:25 PM
Reply to: Message 116 by Tangle
04-12-2019 4:17 PM


Re: Thought Experiment for Faith
You haven't the slightest idea of how ignorant you are.

Dunning–Kruger effect.


What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python

One important characteristic of a theory is that is has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie

If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --percy

The reason that we have the scientific method is because common sense isn't reliable. -- Taq


This message is a reply to:
 Message 116 by Tangle, posted 04-12-2019 4:17 PM Tangle has not yet responded

  
Tanypteryx
Member
Posts: 2782
From: Oregon, USA
Joined: 08-27-2006
Member Rating: 5.8


(1)
Message 176 of 403 (850806)
04-14-2019 2:53 PM
Reply to: Message 175 by Faith
04-14-2019 2:43 PM


Re: Thought Experiment for Faith
Faith writes:

Why do I bother talking to you or anyone else here? You don't get it but you think you do. Buncha self serving boobs all of you. Nincompoops.

We have wondered the same thing for years, then I realized you're stuck in diapause.


What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python

One important characteristic of a theory is that is has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie

If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --percy

The reason that we have the scientific method is because common sense isn't reliable. -- Taq


This message is a reply to:
 Message 175 by Faith, posted 04-14-2019 2:43 PM Faith has not yet responded

  
Tanypteryx
Member
Posts: 2782
From: Oregon, USA
Joined: 08-27-2006
Member Rating: 5.8


Message 190 of 403 (850844)
04-15-2019 2:39 PM
Reply to: Message 188 by Faith
04-15-2019 2:13 PM


The evo bias is hard to overcome of course.

You mean the facts are hard to overcome, of course.

Now that IS hilarious.

I never realized you had a sense of humor..


What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python

One important characteristic of a theory is that is has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie

If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --percy

The reason that we have the scientific method is because common sense isn't reliable. -- Taq


This message is a reply to:
 Message 188 by Faith, posted 04-15-2019 2:13 PM Faith has not yet responded

  
Tanypteryx
Member
Posts: 2782
From: Oregon, USA
Joined: 08-27-2006
Member Rating: 5.8


(4)
Message 218 of 403 (850904)
04-16-2019 6:32 PM
Reply to: Message 217 by RAZD
04-16-2019 4:01 PM


Re: Trilobite Thought Experiment for Faith
RAZD writes:

Well, as long as the three lobes are arranged as they are in all the trilobites, yes.

Oh look, I found a bunch of modern trilobites for Faith:

I have been thinking about trilobites since "The Lumper*" led us down this rabbit hole. Her argument has the purity of absolute ignorance. She has basically only made 2 valid statements about them. 1) Their general body plan has 3 characteristic lobes. 2) Something strange about the arrangement of legs or something. That's it. She has seen pictures of maybe 5 species or at most a dozen or two.

A while back I gave a short review of Trilobite, Eyewitness to Evolution by Richard Fortey, 2001. I saw somewhere, but can't put my finger on it, that there are more than 20,000 species of described trilobites with more being added every year. The people who spend their lives studying them not only show us what the adults look like, but in many cases they show us the immature stages as well. Often many clues about their habitat is also fossilized.

The Lumper's substance free posts about trilobites provides us with absolutely NO useful or interesting information and she has not made any effort to learn any factual information about these fossil organisms.

Oh look, I found a bunch of modern trilobites for Faith:

quote:
Augochlora Sweat Bee (Augochlora pura)

Ant, Bee, and Wasp Anatomy

1 Antennae: Ants and Bees both have a pair of antennae on the head that senses their surroundings.
2 Head: The head contains the insect's compound eyes, antennae, and mandibles.
3 Thorax: Contains various vital parts such as the aorta and nervous system.
4 Abdomen: Contains various organs including the heart, gut, venom glands, and anus.
5 Legs: Ants and Bees have three pairs of legs attached to the thorax (center-body section).


Where 2, 3, and 4 are the unmistakable 3 lobes arranged as they are in all the trilobites and the primal characteristic of all trilobites ...

I think all insects make a better surrogate for trilobites. They have been around for about 100 million years longer. They are far more diversified with almost 2 million described species which by some recent estimates is only 10-20 percent of the total number of species.

Like you said, 3 major body parts, 2 antennae, mandibles (but there are other important mouth "appendages" also), 3 pairs of legs always with 1 pair on each thoracic segment, and 2 pairs of wings always with a pair on each of the rear 2 thoracic segments. (Some insects have only one pair of wings and some have none, most can develop wings if HOX signals to develop wings.)

The thing that I find the most striking about the insects is the mind blowing array of modifications evolution has made to every single external feature of insects. Just the differences in mouthparts in the single clade Diptera (True flies) is astonishing. There is huge variety in the fore legs, mid legs, hind legs, fore wings, hind wings, eyes, head, thorax, and abdomen.

Taxonomists have grouped insects into taxons or clades or orders mostly based on shared basic characters of the wings.

Looking at insects as models of evolution focusing on the variety of mouthparts or legs or antennae or wings would probably make an interesting discussion thread. I also think it is interesting to look at examples of evolution solving similar problems in completely different ways in different insect species, but then there are also cases where different species hit on very similar solutions.

If we think of the development of diversity as a measure of success then insects are the most successful class of animals on the planet.

* Among taxonomists there are are sometimes 2 groups, the lumpers and the splitters. The splitters often describe individual species based on a very narrow variation of features, sometime single features and the lumpers tend to disregard narrow variation in features and lump various related populations as a single species. I am not aware of anyone lumping together a whole taxonomic class of organisms like trilobites. It is as stupid as lumping together ALL THE FUCKING INSECTS AS ONE SPECIES. Trying to engage in any discussion about this with Faith is futile because as she said multiple times in this thread, her mind is closed and she possesses absolutely no knowledge about trilobites or evolution. She will never give us any information, only insults.

Edited by Tanypteryx, : spelling


What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python

One important characteristic of a theory is that is has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie

If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --percy

The reason that we have the scientific method is because common sense isn't reliable. -- Taq


This message is a reply to:
 Message 217 by RAZD, posted 04-16-2019 4:01 PM RAZD has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 219 by Tangle, posted 04-17-2019 4:15 AM Tanypteryx has responded
 Message 226 by RAZD, posted 04-17-2019 3:28 PM Tanypteryx has responded

  
Tanypteryx
Member
Posts: 2782
From: Oregon, USA
Joined: 08-27-2006
Member Rating: 5.8


(4)
Message 224 of 403 (850950)
04-17-2019 2:17 PM
Reply to: Message 219 by Tangle
04-17-2019 4:15 AM


Re: Trilobite Thought Experiment for Faith
Faith thinks that her 2 minute glance at photographs of half a dozen trilobites on the internet makes her educated enough to tell the world's experts that have been studying them all their lives that they're wrong.

She doesn't just say they are wrong, but arrogantly insults their intelligence and education, and her reasoning is so ridiculously flawed and stupid that a 3rd grader could see it.

(Which she does on every subject from geology to micro-biology.)

Classic Dunning–Kruger effect. Every time her arguments are just so fucking stupid.

It really is hard to understand what she gets out of her participation here at EvC, maybe self appointed martyrdom.


What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python

One important characteristic of a theory is that is has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie

If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --percy

The reason that we have the scientific method is because common sense isn't reliable. -- Taq


This message is a reply to:
 Message 219 by Tangle, posted 04-17-2019 4:15 AM Tangle has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 225 by Coragyps, posted 04-17-2019 2:26 PM Tanypteryx has acknowledged this reply

  
Tanypteryx
Member
Posts: 2782
From: Oregon, USA
Joined: 08-27-2006
Member Rating: 5.8


(2)
Message 227 of 403 (850955)
04-17-2019 3:33 PM
Reply to: Message 226 by RAZD
04-17-2019 3:28 PM


Re: Trilobite Thought Experiment for Faith
Except when it comes to human/chimpanzee relationships, then she becomes the consummate splitter: the different lengths of bones become criteria for lack of relationship.

Multiple personality disorder?


What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python

One important characteristic of a theory is that is has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie

If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --percy

The reason that we have the scientific method is because common sense isn't reliable. -- Taq


This message is a reply to:
 Message 226 by RAZD, posted 04-17-2019 3:28 PM RAZD has acknowledged this reply

Replies to this message:
 Message 228 by Theodoric, posted 04-17-2019 4:43 PM Tanypteryx has acknowledged this reply

  
Tanypteryx
Member
Posts: 2782
From: Oregon, USA
Joined: 08-27-2006
Member Rating: 5.8


Message 284 of 403 (851078)
04-18-2019 10:09 PM
Reply to: Message 259 by Faith
04-18-2019 2:05 PM


Re: Transitionals are intermediate in form/features/time/location from before and after
Faith writes:

The depth of the strata proves one worldwide Flood without any other evidence being taken into account.

And when all the rest of the evidence is taken into account, it becomes obvious that your assertion is completely wrong. Studying all the real evidence leads to understanding.

What does this have to do with what a transitional fossil looks like?


What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python

One important characteristic of a theory is that is has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie

If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --percy

The reason that we have the scientific method is because common sense isn't reliable. -- Taq


This message is a reply to:
 Message 259 by Faith, posted 04-18-2019 2:05 PM Faith has not yet responded

  
Tanypteryx
Member
Posts: 2782
From: Oregon, USA
Joined: 08-27-2006
Member Rating: 5.8


(1)
Message 292 of 403 (851119)
04-19-2019 10:07 PM
Reply to: Message 275 by edge
04-18-2019 3:07 PM


edge writes:

mtw writes:

From my perspective have you any idea how tedious that is for someone with a high IQ and more knowledge than most evolutionists likely have? (I can show you my test scores if you wish)


Very intelligent people often believe weird stuff. And I do not recommend presenting personal information here as some YEC will casually dismiss it.

edge writes:

mtw writes:

Yeah but you're wrong IMHO. It is slothful induction fallacy to pretend that a tiny percentage is proven "to the reasonable person". I am a reasonable person, I score 95% on university level logic tests, and close to 90% on all critical thinking evaluation tests.


As I have said before, this is science, not philosophy.

edge writes:

mtw writes:

There he goes again with "a reasonable person". What goal must I score through to count as a "reasonable person".


It's not quantifiable. It has to do with an open mind and critical analysis skills.

edge writes:

mtw writes:

I say that it's simply that my standard of reason is a higher standard of critical thinking. My test scores agree. Shouldn't a reasonable person accept what objective test scores say about my intellect?


But it's not 'critical thinking', it is simple criticism that you practice. All you do is criticize the theory of evolution. You don't really have an alternative that you support in this forum.

edge writes:

mtw writes:

I don't know what else I can do to convince you that this creationist is indeed a high reasoner. Want my test scores for university level critical thinking and my scores for population genetics?

I mean what do I have to do to convince an evolutionist I am a reasonable person? We all know the question is rhetorical because we all know the answer; become an evolutionist.


Well, you could have an open-minded conversation here. That would be an excellent start. Simple, adamant complaining about evolution isn't working for you.

This is what I like about going to scientific conferences, all the smartest people stand up and tell everyone how smart they are. Yeah right.

Dunning–Kruger rides again.


What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python

One important characteristic of a theory is that is has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie

If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --percy

The reason that we have the scientific method is because common sense isn't reliable. -- Taq


This message is a reply to:
 Message 275 by edge, posted 04-18-2019 3:07 PM edge has not yet responded

  
Tanypteryx
Member
Posts: 2782
From: Oregon, USA
Joined: 08-27-2006
Member Rating: 5.8


Message 302 of 403 (851180)
04-20-2019 5:15 PM
Reply to: Message 300 by Faith
04-20-2019 3:01 PM


Faith writes:

And the huge variety of trilobites over what are thought to be hundreds of millions of years just adds another kind of argument: there is no evolution over all those hmy, just variations on the Trilobite species/genome.

This is still just as fucking stupid as claiming all insects are the same species.


What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python

One important characteristic of a theory is that is has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie

If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --percy

The reason that we have the scientific method is because common sense isn't reliable. -- Taq


This message is a reply to:
 Message 300 by Faith, posted 04-20-2019 3:01 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 303 by Faith, posted 04-20-2019 5:38 PM Tanypteryx has responded

  
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