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Author Topic:   What would a transitional fossil look like?
Tangle
Member
Posts: 8152
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 3.6


(1)
Message 55 of 403 (850409)
04-07-2019 11:45 AM
Reply to: Message 54 by Faith
04-07-2019 11:43 AM


Re: still more comic relief
Faith writes:

Sorry but when an alternative theory is in competition with yours.

What is this theory, where can I read about it, what journal is it published in?


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 54 by Faith, posted 04-07-2019 11:43 AM Faith has not yet responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 8152
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 3.6


(1)
Message 78 of 403 (850488)
04-09-2019 4:27 AM
Reply to: Message 75 by Faith
04-08-2019 11:29 PM


Re: It's all simple variation built into a species
Faith writes:

As for what other creationists believe, it's always very disappointing to find out how much they accept of what they shouldn't accept. Right now dredge accepts an enormous list of evo tenets. Confusing and sad when creationists do that, and unfortunately all of us have different views on these things. Very frustrating.

It's only possible for creationists to believe all these different things because none of you start with the evidence. If you start with a belief - as you all do - you can never establish whether that belief is true or not. All religionists do what you do, pick and choose the facts you like and deny all those that don't fit.

So of course you all believe different things about the facts - ignorantly ignoring the actual science consensus. Meanwhile science trundles along only concerning itself with what *all* the evidence actually is.

Edited by Tangle, : No reason given.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 75 by Faith, posted 04-08-2019 11:29 PM Faith has not yet responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 8152
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 3.6


(3)
Message 116 of 403 (850704)
04-12-2019 4:17 PM
Reply to: Message 115 by Faith
04-12-2019 3:31 PM


Re: Thought Experiment for Faith
Faith writes:

Of course I think otherwise,

Of course you do. Despite never having studied one or had the training necessary to understand what you're looking at even if you had. You haven't the slightest idea of how ignorant you are.

Edited by Tangle, : No reason given.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 115 by Faith, posted 04-12-2019 3:31 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 117 by Tanypteryx, posted 04-12-2019 4:25 PM Tangle has not yet responded
 Message 118 by Faith, posted 04-12-2019 6:38 PM Tangle has responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 8152
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 3.6


(2)
Message 120 of 403 (850714)
04-13-2019 3:36 AM
Reply to: Message 118 by Faith
04-12-2019 6:38 PM


Re: Thought Experiment for Faith
Faith writes:

Ad hominems really add nothing to the discussion. Your job is to explain how I'm wrong and give what you think is the correct answer. In this particular case I was answering according to my observation of the form of trilobites in the various illustrations so I'm not just theorizing. I've also given descriptions of the body structure of chimpanzees and cats and dogs to make my point about those creatures. I'm counting on you all to be able to form pictures in your heads, but if necessary maybe I can dig up the relevant charts.

There are hundreds of scientists that have spent their entire lives researching trilobites; describing them, dating them, categorising them building on previous work and creating their evolutionary record. You come along and without reading a single scientific paper, without any scientific education or training, without touching a single fossil and without the first understanding of the subject, tell us that they're all wrong.

You attempt this massive feat of hubris in all fields of scientific study from palaeontology, geology, micro-biology, genetics, radiometric dating and astronomy. All without the first clue of any of them and all without publishing a single scientific paper yourself.

You're simply deluded on every level and there's no point attempting to discuss these things rationally with you. All we can hope to do is learn about your illness by observing your behaviour.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 118 by Faith, posted 04-12-2019 6:38 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 124 by Faith, posted 04-13-2019 12:45 PM Tangle has responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 8152
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 3.6


(1)
Message 125 of 403 (850726)
04-13-2019 1:20 PM
Reply to: Message 124 by Faith
04-13-2019 12:45 PM


Re: Thought Experiment for Faith
Faith writes:

I made a simple observatgion about the similarity of body structure as seen on charts illustrating trilobites.

You actually said this

All the changes are superficial, not much of a record for the ToE which should produce far more dramatic changes if species-to-species evolution were actually true.

Which is a crass and stupid thing to say which no scientist would agree with.

quote:
Because trilobites had wide diversity and an easily fossilized exoskeleton, they left an extensive fossil record, with some 50,000 known species spanning Paleozoic time. The study of these fossils has facilitated important contributions to biostratigraphy, paleontology, evolutionary biology, and plate tectonics. Trilobites are often placed within the arthropod subphylum Schizoramia within the superclass Arachnomorpha (equivalent to the Arachnata),[7] although several alternative taxonomies are found in the literature.

Trilobites had many lifestyles; some moved over the sea bed as predators, scavengers, or filter feeders, and some swam, feeding on plankton. Most lifestyles expected of modern marine arthropods are seen in trilobites, with the possible exception of parasitism (where scientific debate continues).[8] Some trilobites (particularly the family Olenidae) are even thought to have evolved a symbiotic relationship with sulfur-eating bacteria from which they derived food.


https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trilobite

Basic, basic stuff.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 124 by Faith, posted 04-13-2019 12:45 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 128 by Faith, posted 04-13-2019 2:51 PM Tangle has not yet responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 8152
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 3.6


(3)
Message 219 of 403 (850906)
04-17-2019 4:15 AM
Reply to: Message 218 by Tanypteryx
04-16-2019 6:32 PM


Re: Trilobite Thought Experiment for Faith
Tanypterix writes:

I am not aware of anyone lumping together a whole taxonomic class of organisms like trilobites

Faith thinks that her 2 minute glance at photographs of half a dozen trilobites on the internet makes her educated enough to tell the world's experts that have been studying them all their lives that they're wrong. (Which she does on every subject from geology to micro-biology.)

It's a necessary common trait amongst creationists; they have to believe that their opinion is as good as anyone else's otherwise they'd have to confront reality.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 218 by Tanypteryx, posted 04-16-2019 6:32 PM Tanypteryx has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 224 by Tanypteryx, posted 04-17-2019 2:17 PM Tangle has not yet responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 8152
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 3.6


(1)
Message 328 of 403 (851225)
04-21-2019 3:36 AM
Reply to: Message 317 by Faith
04-20-2019 11:57 PM


Faith writes:

if I see a trilobite that has a different body plan I most certainly will rethink it.

A trilobite with a non-trilobite body plan would not be a trilobite.

That's how taxonomy works.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 317 by Faith, posted 04-20-2019 11:57 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 329 by Faith, posted 04-21-2019 7:33 AM Tangle has not yet responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 8152
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 3.6


Message 341 of 403 (851263)
04-21-2019 2:14 PM
Reply to: Message 335 by Faith
04-21-2019 1:51 PM


Re: It makes the trilobite one Kind ??? Lolling on the floor
Faith writes:

Yes, one species or one Kind, that's how I see all those trilobites climbing up the fossil record for the supposed hundreds of millions of years represented there,

You've never seen a trilobite let alone classified one. You haven't the first idea what is involved in classifying a fossil - not the faintest idea how long it takes to learn how to do that kind of work.

and it is the sameness of their body structure that enables me to classify them that way.

Science has classified 50,000 trilobite species. They are not the same and they show development over time.

You can call them kinds or carrots or Ford Transits if you like, it has no effect on what they are and you are adding no new information - except perhaps humour.

It may take some discussion to define it but that's the basic criterion.

The discussion and effort has been taken. It's done. It took many years of painstaking work by many people. A religiously motivated woman looking blindly and uncomprehendingly at a computer screen is not going to add much to the work - except, as I say, humour.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 335 by Faith, posted 04-21-2019 1:51 PM Faith has not yet responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 8152
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 3.6


(2)
Message 359 of 403 (851340)
04-22-2019 1:51 PM
Reply to: Message 355 by Faith
04-22-2019 1:37 PM


Faith writes:

As I said, take my definition or shut up.

That sums up your position on everything quite perfectly.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 355 by Faith, posted 04-22-2019 1:37 PM Faith has not yet responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 8152
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 3.6


(1)
Message 375 of 403 (851361)
04-22-2019 6:58 PM
Reply to: Message 366 by Faith
04-22-2019 3:50 PM


Re: It makes the trilobite one Kind ??? Lolling on the floor
Faith writes:

Dogs are a species, cats are a species, chimps are a species, human beings are a species, trilobites are a species, etc etc etc.

Science has identified 50,000 trilobite species. You appear to be (very) wrong again.

Chimps btw, *are* a species - Pan troglodytes - and so are bonobos - Pan paniscus. They have very similar body plans so I guess they're the same species according to you?

But so is Homo sapiens which according to DNA sequencing shows Pan to be our closest living relative. Same body plan, same species, according to you.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 366 by Faith, posted 04-22-2019 3:50 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 383 by Faith, posted 04-23-2019 12:46 AM Tangle has responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 8152
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 3.6


(1)
Message 387 of 403 (851376)
04-23-2019 3:19 AM
Reply to: Message 383 by Faith
04-23-2019 12:46 AM


Re: It makes the trilobite one Kind ??? Lolling on the floor
Faith writes:

They are identifying mere varieties as species.

They identify physiological differences and different lifestyles.

quote:
Trilobites had many lifestyles; some moved over the sea bed as predators, scavengers, or filter feeders, and some swam, feeding on plankton. Most lifestyles expected of modern marine arthropods are seen in trilobites, with the possible exception of parasitism (where scientific debate continues).[8] Some trilobites (particularly the family Olenidae) are even thought to have evolved a symbiotic relationship with sulfur-eating bacteria from which they derived food.[9]

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trilobite

Body plan is what defines trilobites as a species all together.

Body plans are how taxonomy works. It doesn't make everything with a body plan that falls inside a generic description a single species. Insects:

quote:
Insects have a chitinous exoskeleton, a three-part body (head, thorax and abdomen), three pairs of jointed legs, compound eyes and one pair of antennae. Insects are the most diverse group of animals; they include more than a million described species and represent more than half of all known living organisms.

Are insect one species?

They do complicated things with their spines but it's all of a sort that the genome itself would govern, not a new species.

The genome governs the body form of every organism ever born.

How about beetles? Darwin said that god had an inordinate fondness for beetles (coleoptera).

quote:
The Coleoptera, with about 400,000 species, is the largest of all orders, constituting almost 40% of described insects and 25% of all known animal life-forms; new species are discovered frequently.

Single species?

As for chimps etc I already said why I consider their body builds to be too different from the human.

The body forms are identical - head, thorax, arms, legs, thumbs etc. They do complicated things with their [arms] but it's all of a sort that the genome itself would govern

And the question is still on the table how you get from the gemetic basis fpr chimp characteristics

That would be evolution Faith and it's been on the table for 150 years.

[And, for the avoidance of doubt, chimps are modern animals. People did not evolve from chimps, but we do share the same ancestor.]

Edited by Tangle, : No reason given.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 383 by Faith, posted 04-23-2019 12:46 AM Faith has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 391 by Tanypteryx, posted 04-23-2019 11:31 AM Tangle has responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 8152
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 3.6


Message 393 of 403 (851387)
04-23-2019 12:51 PM
Reply to: Message 391 by Tanypteryx
04-23-2019 11:31 AM


Re: It makes the trilobite one Kind ??? Lolling on the floor
quote:
That was J. B. S. Haldane.

I always get that wrong. Give me 6 months and I'll do it again.

He seems like quite a character


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 391 by Tanypteryx, posted 04-23-2019 11:31 AM Tanypteryx has acknowledged this reply

  
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