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Author | Topic: What would a transitional fossil look like? | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Tangle Member Posts: 9581 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 6.4
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Faith writes: Sorry but when an alternative theory is in competition with yours. What is this theory, where can I read about it, what journal is it published in?Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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Tangle Member Posts: 9581 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 6.4
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Faith writes: As for what other creationists believe, it's always very disappointing to find out how much they accept of what they shouldn't accept. Right now dredge accepts an enormous list of evo tenets. Confusing and sad when creationists do that, and unfortunately all of us have different views on these things. Very frustrating. It's only possible for creationists to believe all these different things because none of you start with the evidence. If you start with a belief - as you all do - you can never establish whether that belief is true or not. All religionists do what you do, pick and choose the facts you like and deny all those that don't fit. So of course you all believe different things about the facts - ignorantly ignoring the actual science consensus. Meanwhile science trundles along only concerning itself with what *all* the evidence actually is. Edited by Tangle, : No reason given.Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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Tangle Member Posts: 9581 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 6.4
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Faith writes: Of course I think otherwise, Of course you do. Despite never having studied one or had the training necessary to understand what you're looking at even if you had. You haven't the slightest idea of how ignorant you are. Edited by Tangle, : No reason given.Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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Tangle Member Posts: 9581 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 6.4
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Faith writes: Ad hominems really add nothing to the discussion. Your job is to explain how I'm wrong and give what you think is the correct answer. In this particular case I was answering according to my observation of the form of trilobites in the various illustrations so I'm not just theorizing. I've also given descriptions of the body structure of chimpanzees and cats and dogs to make my point about those creatures. I'm counting on you all to be able to form pictures in your heads, but if necessary maybe I can dig up the relevant charts. There are hundreds of scientists that have spent their entire lives researching trilobites; describing them, dating them, categorising them building on previous work and creating their evolutionary record. You come along and without reading a single scientific paper, without any scientific education or training, without touching a single fossil and without the first understanding of the subject, tell us that they're all wrong. You attempt this massive feat of hubris in all fields of scientific study from palaeontology, geology, micro-biology, genetics, radiometric dating and astronomy. All without the first clue of any of them and all without publishing a single scientific paper yourself. You're simply deluded on every level and there's no point attempting to discuss these things rationally with you. All we can hope to do is learn about your illness by observing your behaviour. Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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Tangle Member Posts: 9581 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 6.4
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Faith writes: I made a simple observatgion about the similarity of body structure as seen on charts illustrating trilobites. You actually said this
All the changes are superficial, not much of a record for the ToE which should produce far more dramatic changes if species-to-species evolution were actually true. Which is a crass and stupid thing to say which no scientist would agree with.
quote: Trilobite - Wikipedia Basic, basic stuff.Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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Tangle Member Posts: 9581 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 6.4
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Tanypterix writes: I am not aware of anyone lumping together a whole taxonomic class of organisms like trilobites Faith thinks that her 2 minute glance at photographs of half a dozen trilobites on the internet makes her educated enough to tell the world's experts that have been studying them all their lives that they're wrong. (Which she does on every subject from geology to micro-biology.) It's a necessary common trait amongst creationists; they have to believe that their opinion is as good as anyone else's otherwise they'd have to confront reality.Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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Tangle Member Posts: 9581 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 6.4
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Faith writes: if I see a trilobite that has a different body plan I most certainly will rethink it. A trilobite with a non-trilobite body plan would not be a trilobite. That's how taxonomy works.Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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Tangle Member Posts: 9581 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 6.4 |
Faith writes: Yes, one species or one Kind, that's how I see all those trilobites climbing up the fossil record for the supposed hundreds of millions of years represented there, You've never seen a trilobite let alone classified one. You haven't the first idea what is involved in classifying a fossil - not the faintest idea how long it takes to learn how to do that kind of work.
and it is the sameness of their body structure that enables me to classify them that way. Science has classified 50,000 trilobite species. They are not the same and they show development over time. You can call them kinds or carrots or Ford Transits if you like, it has no effect on what they are and you are adding no new information - except perhaps humour.
It may take some discussion to define it but that's the basic criterion. The discussion and effort has been taken. It's done. It took many years of painstaking work by many people. A religiously motivated woman looking blindly and uncomprehendingly at a computer screen is not going to add much to the work - except, as I say, humour.Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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Tangle Member Posts: 9581 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 6.4
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Faith writes: As I said, take my definition or shut up. That sums up your position on everything quite perfectly.Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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Tangle Member Posts: 9581 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 6.4
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Faith writes: Dogs are a species, cats are a species, chimps are a species, human beings are a species, trilobites are a species, etc etc etc. Science has identified 50,000 trilobite species. You appear to be (very) wrong again. Chimps btw, *are* a species - Pan troglodytes - and so are bonobos - Pan paniscus. They have very similar body plans so I guess they're the same species according to you? But so is Homo sapiens which according to DNA sequencing shows Pan to be our closest living relative. Same body plan, same species, according to you.Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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Tangle Member Posts: 9581 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 6.4
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Faith writes: They are identifying mere varieties as species. They identify physiological differences and different lifestyles.
quote:Trilobite - Wikipedia Body plan is what defines trilobites as a species all together. Body plans are how taxonomy works. It doesn't make everything with a body plan that falls inside a generic description a single species. Insects:
quote: Are insect one species?
They do complicated things with their spines but it's all of a sort that the genome itself would govern, not a new species. The genome governs the body form of every organism ever born. How about beetles? Darwin said that god had an inordinate fondness for beetles (coleoptera).
quote: Single species?
As for chimps etc I already said why I consider their body builds to be too different from the human. The body forms are identical - head, thorax, arms, legs, thumbs etc. They do complicated things with their [arms] but it's all of a sort that the genome itself would govern
And the question is still on the table how you get from the gemetic basis fpr chimp characteristics That would be evolution Faith and it's been on the table for 150 years. [And, for the avoidance of doubt, chimps are modern animals. People did not evolve from chimps, but we do share the same ancestor.] Edited by Tangle, : No reason given.Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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Tangle Member Posts: 9581 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 6.4 |
quote: I always get that wrong. Give me 6 months and I'll do it again. He seems like quite a character
Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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