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Author Topic:   What would a transitional fossil look like?
Faith
Member
Posts: 30962
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 166 of 400 (850794)
04-14-2019 1:54 PM
Reply to: Message 164 by caffeine
04-14-2019 1:11 PM


Re: Thought Experiment for Faith
I'm sorry, I do get impatient. So far you haven't but others accuse me of stuff that is false and everybody seems to have to find some nitpicky way what i'm saying is wrong whereas if you just read what I wrote and thought about it I don't think it would look that way to you. Cats' bodies are flexibility, dogs' are not. This doesn't show on skeletal illustrations except by the upright posture of the dogs, it's just something that is also true and differentiates between them. AND behavioral characteristics as well. OK? I guess I should spell it all out every time but I don't see why normal intelligent people can't figure it out. Cats and dogs ARE built differently AND they act differently even if their skeletons look the same in an illustration. \\

And I continue to insist that a chimpanzee is NOT built the same as a human being. Long muscular torso, long muscular arms, very short legs, hand-like feet, heavy head with jaw forward , squashed nose, etc etc etc etc etc. Cats and dogs have the same skeletal parts too but they are very different creatures by their flexibility versus rigidity and behavior, and so are the chimp and the human being that different. The differences are far greater than the similarities.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 164 by caffeine, posted 04-14-2019 1:11 PM caffeine has responded

Replies to this message:
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 Message 191 by caffeine, posted 04-15-2019 2:50 PM Faith has responded

    
edge
Member
Posts: 4518
From: Colorado, USA
Joined: 01-09-2002
Member Rating: 7.2


Message 167 of 400 (850795)
04-14-2019 1:55 PM
Reply to: Message 156 by Faith
04-14-2019 12:21 PM


Re: Thought Experiment for Faith
Well, as long as the three lobes are arranged as they are in all the trilobites, yes.

No because all tetrapods do not have the same body structure. There are many species of tetrapods, which all vary in many ways within their genome or body build. So as I've been considering it, dogs are a species; cats are a species. Etc.


But all of the appendages in tetrapods are arranged in the same way. So, according to your logic, cats and dogs are the same species.

According to my understanding, having the same arrangement of body parts does not mean that they are the same species.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 156 by Faith, posted 04-14-2019 12:21 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 168 by Faith, posted 04-14-2019 1:59 PM edge has not yet responded

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 30962
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 168 of 400 (850796)
04-14-2019 1:59 PM
Reply to: Message 167 by edge
04-14-2019 1:55 PM


Re: Thought Experiment for Faith
Not by MY logic, by YOUR twisted logic. You simply refuse to get the whole picture. All you and everybody else is doing is refusing to consider a different way of putting the facts together out of sheer prejudice in favor of the ToE. What a bunch of self serving boobs.
This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
 Message 171 by JonF, posted 04-14-2019 2:15 PM Faith has not yet responded
 Message 172 by PaulK, posted 04-14-2019 2:18 PM Faith has not yet responded
 Message 174 by dwise1, posted 04-14-2019 2:34 PM Faith has responded

    
PaulK
Member
Posts: 14819
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 3.5


Message 169 of 400 (850797)
04-14-2019 2:00 PM
Reply to: Message 163 by Faith
04-14-2019 1:11 PM


Re: Thought Experiment for Faith
quote:

Sometimes. Do try to get the general drift. ALL the dog breeds are illustrated with heads high. MOST cat skeletons are illustrated with heads down in a walking gait. Dogs do NOT stalk the way cats do.

But is it an anatomical difference and if it is, is it big enough to count as structural? - when you exclude quite big differences in trilobite forms. That really isn’t settled by looking at the usual pose for skeletons.

After all, cats are usually ambush hunters so stalking would be common behaviour. But behavioural differences aren’t structural.


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 Message 163 by Faith, posted 04-14-2019 1:11 PM Faith has not yet responded

    
JonF
Member
Posts: 4560
Joined: 06-23-2003
Member Rating: 4.7


Message 170 of 400 (850798)
04-14-2019 2:09 PM
Reply to: Message 166 by Faith
04-14-2019 1:54 PM


Re: Thought Experiment for Faith
Differences in size, length etc., don't matter in my frame of reference which I would think would be obvious from the fact that I was clearly referring to ALL dog breeds. The basic shape is the same.

Except they matter when comparing chimps and humans.

Differences in size, length etc., don't matter in my frame of reference which I would think would be obvious from the fact that I was clearly referring to ALL dog breeds. The basic shape is the same as

Make up your mind.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 166 by Faith, posted 04-14-2019 1:54 PM Faith has not yet responded

  
JonF
Member
Posts: 4560
Joined: 06-23-2003
Member Rating: 4.7


Message 171 of 400 (850799)
04-14-2019 2:15 PM
Reply to: Message 168 by Faith
04-14-2019 1:59 PM


Re: Thought Experiment for Faith
You simply refuse to get the whole picture.

Oh, we get it. You can't stand being kin to no ape, so you have to deny the blindingly obvious.

All you and everybody else is doing is refusing to consider a different way of putting the facts together out of sheer prejudice in favor of the ToE.

We are prejudiced in favor of facts.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 168 by Faith, posted 04-14-2019 1:59 PM Faith has not yet responded

  
PaulK
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Posts: 14819
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 3.5


(1)
Message 172 of 400 (850801)
04-14-2019 2:18 PM
Reply to: Message 168 by Faith
04-14-2019 1:59 PM


Re: Thought Experiment for Faith
quote:

Not by MY logic, by YOUR twisted logic

If “the same basic body plan” is the criterion as you said, then it is your logic. If it isn’t then you need to provide far more explanation and support.

quote:

You simply refuse to get the whole picture.

If you are using a consistent standard for trilobites and tetrapods you haven’t made it at all clear. Nor have you provided the level of analysis necessary to justify your claims. And on the face of it it looks like you are bluffing at best - you have no real standard at all. The arbitrary - and suddenly introduced - exclusion of organs being a rather obvious piece of evidence for that conclusion - but not the only evidence.

quote:

All you and everybody else is doing is refusing to consider a different way of putting the facts together out of sheer prejudice in favor of the ToE.

In reality there is a distinct shortage of facts in your argument, your criteria are unclear and seem to have more to do with your bias than anything else. If that is not the case it is up to you to clear it up by providing the necessary details. Yet you refuse to do that.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 168 by Faith, posted 04-14-2019 1:59 PM Faith has not yet responded

    
dwise1
Member
Posts: 3405
Joined: 05-02-2006
Member Rating: 8.6


(3)
Message 173 of 400 (850802)
04-14-2019 2:22 PM
Reply to: Message 163 by Faith
04-14-2019 1:11 PM


Re: Thought Experiment for Faith
Dogs do NOT stalk the way cats do.

Obviously, your immense ignorance also extends to dogs.

Dogs do indeed stalk the way cats do. I personally observed our own dog doing it. Looking out the back sliding glass door, I saw him staring intently at the base of the back fence. Then he suddenly lowered completely to the ground in full stalking position and started advancing slowly in full stalk mode. I saw that his target was an older kitten, so I rushed out the door ordering him, "No!" The kitten retreated up the fence while our dog charged and followed the kitten half-way up the fence.

I should point out that the sheep dog in the photo that caffeine provided in Message 162 is not stalking, but rather herding sheep (or ducks). Two dogs working a herd will approach in a semi-stalk as shown in order to drive the herd in the desired direction. Then while one keeps them moving, the other will rush to an escape route to block that off.

Note that the herding stalk is a modified behavior that violates the rules of an actual stalk. An actual stalk must be stealthy because you are trying to sneak up on the prey until you are close enough to be able catch it in a final sprint. The herding stalk is out in the open and devoid all and any stealthiness; they want the herd to see them coming since the purpose is to trigger the herd's instinct to run away from a predator who is acting uncomfortably like a predator.

On the other hand, our dog was engaged in full-stealth full stalking behavior because he was intent on sneaking up on his prey. Like a cat would. Dogs and cats do use the same stalking behavior; we just see cats do it more often. Most cats rely on solitary hunting in which stalking is important whereas canids (not just dogs) normally hunt in packs which requires different tactics, though stalking is still important for closing range and prepositioning for the pack's maneuver. For that matter, lion prides use the same kinds of pack tactics that canids do, so then by your "reasoning" lions are part of your "dog species".

I know about dog and cat behavior because I have observed dogs and cats in real life and various canids and felids in countless nature documentaries. Your abject ignorance is evidence that you never have observed dogs or cats or canids or felids. You really do need to learn something about the topics you wish to discuss, especially if you are intent on rewriting all the rules of science as you are doing here.

Here's an alternative system you could use, one that is far better than what you have presented here. And it's so simple and straightforward and sensible that even little children (eg, two- or three-year-olds) use it: all quadrupeds are either "doggie" or "horsie". You should adopt it as well, since it's a lot more useful than the nonsense you've been trying to spin here.

ALL the dog breeds are illustrated with heads high. MOST cat skeletons are illustrated with heads down in a walking gait.

Really? You're basing your entire overhauling of taxonomy on artists' illustrations?. Absolutely ridiculous! And hypocritical, since so many creationist arguments are based on criticism of artists' illustrations (eg, "Nebraska Man").


This message is a reply to:
 Message 163 by Faith, posted 04-14-2019 1:11 PM Faith has not yet responded

    
dwise1
Member
Posts: 3405
Joined: 05-02-2006
Member Rating: 8.6


Message 174 of 400 (850804)
04-14-2019 2:34 PM
Reply to: Message 168 by Faith
04-14-2019 1:59 PM


Re: Thought Experiment for Faith
Not by MY logic, by YOUR twisted logic.

No, it is YOUR logic. All we are doing is applying YOUR claims and YOUR new system of taxonomy to the real world. That is called "testing the hypothesis" with the hypothesis being that your new system can actually be used to classify life-forms in a consistent and meaningful manner.

Obviously, your new system of taxonomy is a complete and utter failure.

You simply refuse to get the whole picture.

We do get the whole picture far better than you. You simply refuse to understand all the conclusions and consequences and problems of your many hare-brained fantasies. And your refusal to test your own ideas or to listen to critiques of them only serves to sustain your self-delusion.

What a bunch of self serving boobs.

Not only should you not be looking in the mirror when you write these things, but you also shouldn't have that other mirror on the opposite wall.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 168 by Faith, posted 04-14-2019 1:59 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 175 by Faith, posted 04-14-2019 2:43 PM dwise1 has not yet responded

    
Faith
Member
Posts: 30962
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 175 of 400 (850805)
04-14-2019 2:43 PM
Reply to: Message 174 by dwise1
04-14-2019 2:34 PM


Re: Thought Experiment for Faith
...

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 174 by dwise1, posted 04-14-2019 2:34 PM dwise1 has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
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Tanypteryx
Member
Posts: 2063
From: Oregon, USA
Joined: 08-27-2006
Member Rating: 8.6


(1)
Message 176 of 400 (850806)
04-14-2019 2:53 PM
Reply to: Message 175 by Faith
04-14-2019 2:43 PM


Re: Thought Experiment for Faith
Faith writes:

Why do I bother talking to you or anyone else here? You don't get it but you think you do. Buncha self serving boobs all of you. Nincompoops.

We have wondered the same thing for years, then I realized you're stuck in diapause.


What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python

One important characteristic of a theory is that is has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie

If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --percy

The reason that we have the scientific method is because common sense isn't reliable. -- Taq


This message is a reply to:
 Message 175 by Faith, posted 04-14-2019 2:43 PM Faith has not yet responded

    
dwise1
Member
Posts: 3405
Joined: 05-02-2006
Member Rating: 8.6


Message 177 of 400 (850807)
04-14-2019 3:24 PM
Reply to: Message 162 by caffeine
04-14-2019 1:10 PM


Sheep Dogs

Incidentally, with regards to the last picture, awwwww.

As I described in Message 173, that's a sheep dog using a modified stalking stance in order to make the herd feel threatened enough to start moving or to avoid going in the direction of the dog (eg, when he moves out ahead to block the way that he doesn't want the herd to go). A full hunting stalk would be much closer to the ground and be used to remain hidden during the approach, whereas the sheep dog wants the herd to see him coming from a mile away (though actually they work much closer in than that).

There probably aren't many in your neighborhood, but most Scottish highland games include sheep herding (sometimes substituting ducks or geese) demonstrations and even competitions. Now that is a sight to behold! Since sheep herding is not unique to Scotland, I would assume that many local fairs in Europe would also present sheep herding.

Note the dog's intensity in that photo. At one demonstration, the announcer pointed that out and told us to imagine trying to keep that intensity locked up in an apartment: disasterously bad behavior just waiting to happen. I have heard of a way for them to work that off, farms that will train your household sheep dog (there are whistle and gesture commands that they need to know) and you can take him there periodically to work and get it out of their system.

Edited by dwise1, : changed subtitle


This message is a reply to:
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Faith
Member
Posts: 30962
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 178 of 400 (850810)
04-14-2019 4:24 PM


It's not that cats NEVER raise their heads or that dogs never lower theirs, and it isn't always about stalking, but I'm claiming that cats more characteristically move with their heads lowered than dogs do.

MORE LATER

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


Replies to this message:
 Message 179 by PaulK, posted 04-14-2019 4:36 PM Faith has responded

    
PaulK
Member
Posts: 14819
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 3.5


(1)
Message 179 of 400 (850811)
04-14-2019 4:36 PM
Reply to: Message 178 by Faith
04-14-2019 4:24 PM


Behaviour is hardly classifiable as “skeleton, basic build, basic structure”. And this certainly looks like behaviour - and dog’s tail-wagging is certainly behaviour.

So why include behaviour and not organs ? It makes no sense.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 178 by Faith, posted 04-14-2019 4:24 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 180 by Faith, posted 04-14-2019 4:57 PM PaulK has responded
 Message 181 by dwise1, posted 04-14-2019 5:00 PM PaulK has responded

    
Faith
Member
Posts: 30962
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 180 of 400 (850813)
04-14-2019 4:57 PM
Reply to: Message 179 by PaulK
04-14-2019 4:36 PM


I already counted dogs' tailwagging among other things. You really do need to pay attention.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 179 by PaulK, posted 04-14-2019 4:36 PM PaulK has responded

Replies to this message:
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