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Author Topic:   What would a transitional fossil look like?
Theodoric
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Posts: 6550
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 4.0


Message 376 of 403 (851362)
04-22-2019 7:04 PM
Reply to: Message 374 by Faith
04-22-2019 4:27 PM


Re: SUPERSTITION DEFINITIONS OFF TOPIC
NO definitions used

How would we be able to have any conversation if people could just define words any way that they want? That you think you should be able to use definitions you just make up is another sign that you are nothing but a troll.
I think I will use Faith's argument about defining words here at home. The next time my wife asks me to wash the dishes I will grab a beer and drink it and tell her the job is done. I will define the word "wash" as "drink" and "dishes" as "beer".
How well do you think that will go over?
Words have meanings. As a society we decide what those meanings are. You cannot randomly decide on your own definitions.

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up why would you have to lie?


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JonF
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Posts: 5473
Joined: 06-23-2003
Member Rating: 2.9


(4)
Message 377 of 403 (851364)
04-22-2019 7:23 PM
Reply to: Message 374 by Faith
04-22-2019 4:27 PM


Re: SUPERSTITION DEFINITIONS OFF TOPIC
NO definitions used

Kangaroo ground fabulously and honey burned and up much through compatible krill desolate and according plankton more erroneously ouch one devilishly save opposite up lemming a weasel wow dived since far the and hung this.

Much robustly drolly beside porcupine yikes some fatuous watchful feverishly ahead immeasurable past hippopotamus by that unaccountable hey and apart crud beguilingly hello worm and


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AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 4502
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 4.0


Message 378 of 403 (851365)
04-22-2019 7:29 PM
Reply to: Message 373 by Faith
04-22-2019 4:24 PM


Calling a person insane, "off her rocker," for holding the standard Protestant belief really ought to be cause for suspension from the forum on the basis of disrespecting another's "sincerely held belief."

Now, see, isn't this wonderful? Exhilarating? Gets your blood boiling!

What better can one possibly do on a Monday afternoon?


Eschew obfuscation. Habituate elucidation.

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Replies to this message:
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Tanypteryx
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Posts: 2309
From: Oregon, USA
Joined: 08-27-2006
Member Rating: 7.0


(3)
Message 379 of 403 (851366)
04-22-2019 7:34 PM
Reply to: Message 376 by Theodoric
04-22-2019 7:04 PM


Re: SUPERSTITION DEFINITIONS OFF TOPIC
As a society we decide what those meanings are.

Socialism.


What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python

One important characteristic of a theory is that is has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie

If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --percy

The reason that we have the scientific method is because common sense isn't reliable. -- Taq


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AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 4502
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 4.0


(1)
Message 380 of 403 (851368)
04-22-2019 7:47 PM
Reply to: Message 379 by Tanypteryx
04-22-2019 7:34 PM


Re: SUPERSTITION DEFINITIONS OFF TOPIC
Socialism.

Now that IS a devil word.


Eschew obfuscation. Habituate elucidation.

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Tanypteryx
Member
Posts: 2309
From: Oregon, USA
Joined: 08-27-2006
Member Rating: 7.0


Message 381 of 403 (851370)
04-22-2019 9:55 PM


What about Mollusca?
Mollusca is a fascinatingly diverse phylum.

Are they also one species?

quote:
Around 85,000 extant species of molluscs are recognized. The number of fossil species is estimated between 60,000 and 100,000 additional species. Wikipedia

What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python

One important characteristic of a theory is that is has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie

If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --percy

The reason that we have the scientific method is because common sense isn't reliable. -- Taq


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Faith
Member
Posts: 32898
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 382 of 403 (851371)
04-23-2019 12:40 AM
Reply to: Message 381 by Tanypteryx
04-22-2019 9:55 PM


Re: What about Mollusca?
Are they also one species?

Possibly, I don't know. I'd have to spend time looking at them as I did with the trilobites.


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Faith
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Posts: 32898
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 383 of 403 (851372)
04-23-2019 12:46 AM
Reply to: Message 375 by Tangle
04-22-2019 6:58 PM


Re: It makes the trilobite one Kind ??? Lolling on the floor
Science has identified 50,000 trilobite species. You appear to be (very) wrong again.

They are identifying mere varieties as species. Body plan is what defines trilobites as a species all together. They do complicated things with their spines but it's all of a sort that the genome itself would govern, not a new species.

As for chimps etc I already said why I consider their body builds to be too different from the human. And the question is still on the table how you get from the gemetic basis fpr chimp characteristics, i.e. the chimp genome that makes chimps and only chimps and nothing but chimps -- how you get from that to anything that isn't a chimp, by mutations or any other means. Mutations are only going to vary the gene they change, how is that going to get you from chimp to anything else? Are you imagining transitional phases? Where might we find any of those?

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


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PaulK
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Posts: 15370
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 3.3


(1)
Message 384 of 403 (851373)
04-23-2019 12:49 AM
Reply to: Message 374 by Faith
04-22-2019 4:27 PM


Re: SUPERSTITION DEFINITIONS OFF TOPIC
quote:

No I'm not dictating what definitions get to be used

Sure you did. Eg:


As I said, take my definition or shut up.

You were called superstitious, you denied it based on your choice of definition, and when an alternative definition was pointed out you tried to shut it down.

But you don’t get to choose the definition someone else uses - even though you often try. That is even worse than making up your own definitions (or worse, pretending to have done so, as in the recent case of “species”).


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PaulK
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Posts: 15370
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 3.3


Message 385 of 403 (851374)
04-23-2019 1:10 AM
Reply to: Message 383 by Faith
04-23-2019 12:46 AM


Re: It makes the trilobite one Kind ??? Lolling on the floor
quote:

They are identifying mere varieties as species.

Really ? What actual evidence do you have ?

quote:

Body plan is what defines trilobites as a species all together.

But it doesn’t define any other species, Why just trilobites ?

quote:

They do complicated things with their spines but it's all of a sort that the genome itself would govern, not a new species.

Aside from all the many differences you are ignoring, the variations in spines alone would indicate that trilobites had multiple species by normal standards. How do you know that the variations all come from a “single genome”, whatever you mean by that?

quote:

As for chimps etc I already said why I consider their body builds to be too different from the human

i.e. you don’t use the “same basic body plan” criterion in that case.

quote:

And the question is still on the table how you get from the gemetic basis fpr chimp characteristics, i.e. the chimp genome that makes chimps and only chimps and nothing but chimps -- how you get from that to anything that isn't a chimp, by mutations or any other means. Mutations are only going to vary the gene they change, how is that going to get you from chimp to anything else?

Mutations include the gain or loss of genes, and include changes to regulatory sequences. Regulatory sequences control when genes are switched on and off. Neoteny is an example, and one relevant to the evolution of humans.

And let us note that nobody is suggesting that modern chimpanzees - either species - has evolved into anything else.

quote:

Are you imagining transitional phases? Where might we find any of those?

If you are talking about the hypothetical future evolution of chimpanzees then obviously any stages will be equally hypothetical.

If you are talking about the past evolution of humans, there are quite a number of species at least related to that line, including the australopithecines and the other species assigned to genus homo.


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Faith
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Posts: 32898
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


(1)
Message 386 of 403 (851375)
04-23-2019 1:10 AM
Reply to: Message 378 by AZPaul3
04-22-2019 7:29 PM


I'd rather experience the calming sense of justice of seeing you suspended.
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Tangle
Member
Posts: 7066
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


(1)
Message 387 of 403 (851376)
04-23-2019 3:19 AM
Reply to: Message 383 by Faith
04-23-2019 12:46 AM


Re: It makes the trilobite one Kind ??? Lolling on the floor
Faith writes:

They are identifying mere varieties as species.

They identify physiological differences and different lifestyles.

quote:
Trilobites had many lifestyles; some moved over the sea bed as predators, scavengers, or filter feeders, and some swam, feeding on plankton. Most lifestyles expected of modern marine arthropods are seen in trilobites, with the possible exception of parasitism (where scientific debate continues).[8] Some trilobites (particularly the family Olenidae) are even thought to have evolved a symbiotic relationship with sulfur-eating bacteria from which they derived food.[9]

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trilobite

Body plan is what defines trilobites as a species all together.

Body plans are how taxonomy works. It doesn't make everything with a body plan that falls inside a generic description a single species. Insects:

quote:
Insects have a chitinous exoskeleton, a three-part body (head, thorax and abdomen), three pairs of jointed legs, compound eyes and one pair of antennae. Insects are the most diverse group of animals; they include more than a million described species and represent more than half of all known living organisms.

Are insect one species?

They do complicated things with their spines but it's all of a sort that the genome itself would govern, not a new species.

The genome governs the body form of every organism ever born.

How about beetles? Darwin said that god had an inordinate fondness for beetles (coleoptera).

quote:
The Coleoptera, with about 400,000 species, is the largest of all orders, constituting almost 40% of described insects and 25% of all known animal life-forms; new species are discovered frequently.

Single species?

As for chimps etc I already said why I consider their body builds to be too different from the human.

The body forms are identical - head, thorax, arms, legs, thumbs etc. They do complicated things with their [arms] but it's all of a sort that the genome itself would govern

And the question is still on the table how you get from the gemetic basis fpr chimp characteristics

That would be evolution Faith and it's been on the table for 150 years.

[And, for the avoidance of doubt, chimps are modern animals. People did not evolve from chimps, but we do share the same ancestor.]

Edited by Tangle, : No reason given.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
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RAZD
Member
Posts: 20108
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004
Member Rating: 4.0


(1)
Message 388 of 403 (851378)
04-23-2019 7:45 AM
Reply to: Message 371 by Faith
04-22-2019 4:11 PM


funny definitions make discussion a farce
I don't care what you've "seen," the definitions I gave are my definitions.

As usual this "discussion" has become a farce. Nevertheless for a while I will resist the impulse to leave this popstand and go on Inactive because the stupidities and misrepresentations do keep temping me back.

And it is your fault that the discussion has become a farce -- you have made it so with your loose and variable "definitions" that defy reason, evidence and consistency.

This is the result of your misusing words with known consistent standard definitions to mean something else that is neither standard nor consistent.

See Definitions, Daffynitions, Delusions, Logic and Critical Thinking. for further discussion on the need to use proper definitions of technical terms.

Enjoy


we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAmerican☆Zen☯Deist
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This message is a reply to:
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RAZD
Member
Posts: 20108
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004
Member Rating: 4.0


Message 389 of 403 (851379)
04-23-2019 7:59 AM
Reply to: Message 366 by Faith
04-22-2019 3:50 PM


Daffynitions make the discussion a farce
You are misusing the terms I use. ...

How can that be when I specifically reference your usage -- here it is again:

quote:
Yes, one species or one Kind, that's how I see all those trilobites climbing up the fossil record for the supposed hundreds of millions of years represented there, and it is the sameness of their body structure that enables me to classify them that way. And where did I call it bias to classify other creatures the same way:

The problem you have is that you refuse and ignore classifying other creatures the same way:

... the Kind or species is identified by the body structure. ...

Then dogs and cats are a "Kind or species (faith usage)" and chimps and humans a "Kind or species (faith usage)" ... where "species (faith usage)" means some original fantasy "species genome" and NOT species as used in biology, science, reality.

So funny to watch you wiggle around the actual evidence.


Note that "species (faith usage)" specifically refers to your fantasy definition of species and your inconsistent usage thereof.

It appears that you define "species (faith usage)" for trilobites but then not use that definition anywhere else.

You do not get to use my terms to establish your own definitions and impute them to me.

And yet they are your definitions, specifically referenced as such.

You have caused the discussion to devolve into a farce, by insisting on your attempt to redefine words and then use your daffynition inconsistently.

Definitions, Daffynitions, Delusions, Logic and Critical Thinking.

Enjoy


we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAmerican☆Zen☯Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


• • • Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click) • • •

This message is a reply to:
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Theodoric
Member
Posts: 6550
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 4.0


Message 390 of 403 (851380)
04-23-2019 8:29 AM
Reply to: Message 386 by Faith
04-23-2019 1:10 AM


So you think you deserve special treatment. Why? Because you are defending your beliefs? When people oppose you they are defending their beliefs or lack thereof. Why should that be treated differently?
You attitude seems to be.
quote:
Good for thee but not for me?

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up why would you have to lie?


This message is a reply to:
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