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Author Topic:   The 2020 Democratic Presidential Nomination Campaign
ooh-child
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Posts: 239
Joined: 04-10-2009
Member Rating: 10.0


(5)
Message 151 of 235 (859533)
08-01-2019 10:51 AM
Reply to: Message 145 by Hyroglyphx
07-31-2019 11:47 PM


Re: Who is calling for open borders?
As a Democrat, I wanted the comprehensive immigration reform package that the 'gang of eight' put together in 2013.

It was passed in the Senate overwhelmingly, then got strangled by John Boehner because the only priority at the time was oppose anything backed by Obama.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gang_of_Eight_(immigration)

And make no mistake, the Republican leadership decided in January 2009 not to back anything Obama wanted to pass, even if they supported it in the past. McConnell said their first order of business was to make Obama a 'one term president'.

https://www.huffpost.com/...er-anti-obama-campaign_n_1452899


This message is a reply to:
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AZPaul3
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Posts: 4394
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 3.2


(1)
Message 152 of 235 (859535)
08-01-2019 11:22 AM
Reply to: Message 145 by Hyroglyphx
07-31-2019 11:47 PM


Re: Who is calling for open borders?
what do you want when it comes to immigration?

I think what the Democrats would like would be to work with Republican statesmen rather than Republican sado-racists hell bent on avoiding any kind of political compromise on the issue.


Eschew obfuscation. Habituate elucidation.

This message is a reply to:
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Tanypteryx
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Posts: 2276
From: Oregon, USA
Joined: 08-27-2006
Member Rating: 4.8


(4)
Message 153 of 235 (859540)
08-01-2019 11:51 AM
Reply to: Message 133 by Hyroglyphx
07-31-2019 9:39 PM


Re: David Axelrod is a liar ( telling disgusting lies about decriminalization)
So, Congress passed a law that says the border patrol has to lock people up in cells with standing room only, no sanitation or medical care? Congress passed a law that says children of all ages should be locked up in cages with no sanitation or adult care?

I think 90% of that controversy is embellished, but I don't want to get lost in the weeds in the minutia.

Well, the minutia of humane treatment of humans is something I grew up thinking America stood for.

I'm curious to know what precisely most Democrats want when it comes to the border. Everything I've seen seems to indicate an open border.

I have no idea what an open border is.

I personally remember when there was an orderly flow of workers from Mexico back and forth across the border and they were welcomed. Some stayed and eventually became citizens and contributed to America's prosperity.

So what is it that Democrats want when it comes to immigration policy?

I don't know. What is it that Trump wants? It appears to me that what we have right now is exactly what Trump wants.

One side in this issue are assholes that are lying about the impact immigrants and refugees have on our country and they make me ashamed that they are humans.

They have diminished the "American Dream" to the point it is unrecognizable.

Edited by Tanypteryx, : No reason given.

Edited by Tanypteryx, : No reason given.


What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python

One important characteristic of a theory is that is has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie

If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --percy

The reason that we have the scientific method is because common sense isn't reliable. -- Taq


This message is a reply to:
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Theodoric
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Posts: 6488
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.4


(1)
Message 154 of 235 (859541)
08-01-2019 11:54 AM
Reply to: Message 145 by Hyroglyphx
07-31-2019 11:47 PM


Re: Who is calling for open borders?
No open borders in her plan. Show me where in her plan she calls for open borders.

You found one blog post saying it does. Show me where she calls for open borders. His conclusions are not supported by the data.

You have yet to show where any Dem, prominent or not, has called for open borders. Do you know what that term means. Kevin Drum seems to be just concern ******** as he does not even show where there is a call for open borders.

Edited by Theodoric, : No reason given.

Edited by Theodoric, : No reason given.


Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up why would you have to lie?


This message is a reply to:
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Percy
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Posts: 18799
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 2.2


(3)
Message 155 of 235 (859571)
08-01-2019 2:33 PM
Reply to: Message 145 by Hyroglyphx
07-31-2019 11:47 PM


Re: Who is calling for open borders?
Hyroglyphx writes:

Source from a liberal rag so you can't conveniently dismiss it

But it's Kevin Drum's (writing for Mother Jones) way of summarizing Elizabeth Warren's plan. It's not the Democrats' plan. The Democratic candidates have a number of different positions on immigration, so it doesn't really make sense to ask for the Democrats' immigration plan.

I liked Drum's point by point summary of Warren's plan, but he seems to have been looking at something else when he wrote the summary paragraph that follows. He's right that there's nothing about improving law enforcement or a wall or E-Verify (don't know what that is) or smarter enforcement, but he's critiquing his own summary of Warren's plan, and we don't know how accurate that is yet. I wouldn't normally begin questioning a journalist's accuracy so early in an article, but I went to Warren's website to see what her immigration plan is (Warren's Plan for Immigration Reform). She says, "We need real reform that provides cost-effective security at our borders," and usually "cost-effective" is another way of saying "technology."

So I'm already not getting any accuracy vibes from Drum, and then I see he also says, "No one will ever be deported—except, presumably, for serious felons, though Warren doesn’t even say that explicitly." It's true that Drum's summary of Warren's plan doesn't mention deportation, but why do I have a feeling that Warren does have something to say about deportation? In fact she mentions deportation in a couple places:

quote:
President Trump has weaponized deportation in ways that are costly, ineffective, and designed to maximize pain. It’s time to end this cruelty — and refocus on true threats to public safety and national security instead.
...
Eliminate expedited removal and provide due process. Due process ensures basic fairness for individuals attempting to navigate complex laws and prevents law enforcement and presidents from abusing authority. But most immigrants facing deportation do not have attorneys — and in the Trump administration, that even includes toddlers. In fact, one-third of deported immigrants never even see a judge: instead, the immigration officer serves as both prosecutor and jury. I’ll eliminate the use of expedited removal proceedings and guarantee hearings. I’ll call for creating a national-scale immigration public defender corps, and a Warren administration will provide access to counsel in immigration court.

Drum also says, "But I have to admit that it’s hard to see much daylight between Warren’s plan and de facto open borders. As near as I can tell, CBP will be retasked away from patrolling the border looking for illegal crossings;" He says this because he's misinterpreted this from Warren's plan:

quote:
Remake CBP and ICE in a way that reflects our values. Our immigration agencies should protect Americans and uphold the rule of law, not pursue punitive anti-immigrant policies that target communities of color. I’ll hold immigration enforcement to the same due process standards as other law enforcement agencies — no more warrantless arrests or stops deep in the interior of our country. I’ll reshape CBP and ICE from top to bottom, focusing their efforts on homeland security efforts like screening cargo, identifying counterfeit goods, and preventing smuggling and trafficking.

Drum somehow missed the context. Warren is saying that she wants to make border security separate from law enforcement. She wants to repurpose the effort CBP and ICE are currently putting into law enforcement into things like "screening cargo, identifying counterfeit goods, and preventing smuggling and trafficking." They'll still be patrolling the border.

Next Drum goes on to recite some Republican talking points, which makes no sense if he's left of center (which he is), so maybe he was just having a bad day, or maybe somebody on the Warren campaign just really pissed him off, but anyway he recites these Republican talking points: "If border officers happen to apprehend someone, they’ll be released almost immediately; if they bother to show up for their court date, they’ll have a lawyer appointed for them; and employers will have no particular reason to fear giving them a job."

I see no reason to give much credence to Drum's article. Anyone who wants to know Warren's immigration plan should go to the source: Warren's Plan for Immigration Reform

And just to be very clear: no Democrat running for president is in favor of open borders.

I am not endorsing any particular immigration plan, I'm not even very familiar with any of them (including Bill Weld's, the other Republican candidate for president) but I am definitely opposed to Trumpian border cruelty and to breaking our DACA promise.

--Percy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 145 by Hyroglyphx, posted 07-31-2019 11:47 PM Hyroglyphx has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 156 by Theodoric, posted 08-01-2019 3:18 PM Percy has acknowledged this reply
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Theodoric
Member
Posts: 6488
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.4


(2)
Message 156 of 235 (859576)
08-01-2019 3:18 PM
Reply to: Message 155 by Percy
08-01-2019 2:33 PM


Re: Who is calling for open borders?
Great post. I was just in the middle of my own point by point take down of Drum's blog post. We were hitting most of the same points so I will not pile one.
I still have not gotten any response for my request for any Democrat calling for open borders. It seems Hyro and other rightwingers have a different definition of the term than the reality of the term. Maybe if he and people like Drum could explain what they mean by open borders we could explain why it isn't open borders.
I follow progressive politics pretty close and I have some contacts in a few progressive organizations. I know of no one calling for open borders. No one. Since Hyro claims that is what the party stands for he would be able to at least point out one person that has advocated such a thing.

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up why would you have to lie?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 155 by Percy, posted 08-01-2019 2:33 PM Percy has acknowledged this reply

Replies to this message:
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Tanypteryx
Member
Posts: 2276
From: Oregon, USA
Joined: 08-27-2006
Member Rating: 4.8


(2)
Message 157 of 235 (859578)
08-01-2019 3:58 PM
Reply to: Message 155 by Percy
08-01-2019 2:33 PM


Re: Who is calling for open borders?
I agree with Theodoric, a great post.

Once again we have a situation where the Trumpublicans hate what THEY SAY DEMOCRATS ARE DOING, while Democrats hate WHAT REPUBLICANS ARE ACTUALLY DOING!


What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python

One important characteristic of a theory is that is has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie

If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --percy

The reason that we have the scientific method is because common sense isn't reliable. -- Taq


This message is a reply to:
 Message 155 by Percy, posted 08-01-2019 2:33 PM Percy has acknowledged this reply

    
RAZD
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Posts: 20034
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004
Member Rating: 2.8


(3)
Message 158 of 235 (859609)
08-02-2019 7:45 AM
Reply to: Message 156 by Theodoric
08-01-2019 3:18 PM


What is an open border?
... Maybe if he and people like Drum could explain what they mean by open borders we could explain why it isn't open borders. ...

Here's my stab at it: an open border is one you can walk across without any legal constraint and without any inspection -- like what we have between states.

Now I grew up in Michigan and we would drive through Canada to reach the east coast relatives and to summer in Rhode Island. Stops at the borders were cursory and rarely were vehicles inspected. No longer, as now you need to have a passport to cross the border.

Enjoy


we are limited in our ability to understand
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Rebel☮American☆Zen☯Deist
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This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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Theodoric
Member
Posts: 6488
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.4


Message 159 of 235 (859614)
08-02-2019 8:37 AM
Reply to: Message 158 by RAZD
08-02-2019 7:45 AM


Re: What is an open border?
That would be what I think of as an open border. I am still waiting for Hyro to show me anyone advocating for such a border with Canada and Mexico. He claims that is what all Dems want, but seemingly can't provide any actual examples.

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up why would you have to lie?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 158 by RAZD, posted 08-02-2019 7:45 AM RAZD has responded

Replies to this message:
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RAZD
Member
Posts: 20034
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004
Member Rating: 2.8


Message 160 of 235 (859617)
08-02-2019 9:47 AM
Reply to: Message 159 by Theodoric
08-02-2019 8:37 AM


Re: What is an open border?
Now what we have in the "Eurozone" is akin to state to state borders for countries that are part of the EU, and regular border crossings to other countries.

http://enjoy-europe.com/hte/chap25/customs.htm

Now I can envisage a N.America union -- with Canada and the US ... (and Mexico ... or not), but the politics would be wicked and the GOP would likely revolt (they are pretty revolting already) -- and that would be an open border system, but I don't see anyone advocating that.

A South America Union would be an interesting proposition ... if the US could keep from poking their regime change tendencies to cripple governments ... include central America and Mexico and it could become a political powerhouse.

Enjoy


we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
Rebel☮American☆Zen☯Deist
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jar
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Posts: 31175
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.7


(1)
Message 161 of 235 (859618)
08-02-2019 9:50 AM
Reply to: Message 160 by RAZD
08-02-2019 9:47 AM


Re: What is an open border?
RAZD writes:

A South America Union would be an interesting proposition ... if the US could keep from poking their regime change tendencies to cripple governments ... include central America and Mexico and it could become a political powerhouse.

Not just a political powerhouse but also a major economic powerhouse with resources that dwarf most of today's economic powerhouses.


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

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RAZD
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Posts: 20034
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004
Member Rating: 2.8


Message 162 of 235 (859619)
08-02-2019 9:52 AM
Reply to: Message 161 by jar
08-02-2019 9:50 AM


Re: What is an open border?
And they have the advantage of a common language and history.

Enjoy


we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
Rebel☮American☆Zen☯Deist
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Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)

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LamarkNewAge
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Posts: 1520
Joined: 12-22-2015


Message 163 of 235 (859871)
08-04-2019 12:40 AM


What is a Frontier? A border? What did the United States repeatedly burst through?
Think Texas, for starters.

There was a "white invasion" of lands that Mexicans, Native Americans, and (racially mixed) Spanish already lived in.

This was not peaceful migration, but an outright military invasion.

What is so wrong with an "open border", if it is peaceful migration?

The truth is that the United States is a young nation, and it did not exist 250 years ago.

And the whole of today's United States did not simply drop from the sky 230-245 years ago. It swallowed up non-white lands bit by bit.

Texas was not in the United States till the mid 19th century. About 100 years before Nixon was Vice President.

The South was just Virginia at the end of the 18th century.

Just as El Paso was invaded in the middle of the 19th century, a white nationalist invaded the town today (a legal travel, from 10 miles away, in a town that was not part of the United States 200 years ago). This boy did not like Hispanics in the United States, so he attacked a Frontier town. But it is ONLY today seen as a crossing point from one country to the next. From the non-white country to the - "white country" - United States. It was Hispanic long before the white United States took it by force in the mid-19th century.

This young country expanded and swallowed up non-white people, like in El Paso.

It was violent.

Now:

What is wrong with "open borders"?

What is wrong with peaceful "open borders", anyway?

What is wrong with peaceful migration, free of (racist ignorance or other ignorance) ignorance and artificial borders?


    
LamarkNewAge
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Posts: 1520
Joined: 12-22-2015


Message 164 of 235 (859872)
08-04-2019 12:53 AM


Allen is more than 10 miles away. (my mistake)
It is near Dallas.

But that was swallowed up by the white United States around the same time as El Paso.

Whites were not planted there like Adam in the Garden of Eden.

It is all artificial.

And opposition to Open Borders is a feature of the ignorant.

Democrats have their ignorant folks too. That does not make the opponents, of open borders, correct.

Edited by LamarkNewAge, : No reason given.


    
LamarkNewAge
Member
Posts: 1520
Joined: 12-22-2015


Message 165 of 235 (859971)
08-04-2019 9:00 PM


Another poll backs up the real possibility of support for decriminalization
https://www.huffpost.com/...-says_n_5d41fecae4b0ca604e2c310b

quote:
POLITICS 07/31/2019 06:23 pm ET

Most Democrats Want Border-Crossings Decriminalized, Poll Says

A progressive think tank’s results conflict with other major surveys — but its poll also asks a more accurate question.

By Roque Planas

Nearly two-thirds of Democrats favor leaving civil immigration authorities in charge of immigration violations by decriminalizing border-crossing violations, according to a new poll conducted by Democratic pollster YouGov Blue.

The poll offers the first sign of liberal support for a sweeping immigration proposal that has gained traction among Democratic presidential hopefuls over the last few months. But the results of the survey of 1,014 voters, carried out on behalf of left-wing think tank Data For Progress, conflict with two similar polls released in the last month, indicating that voters’ perception of the issue hinges on the context in which pollsters pose the question.

The Data For Progress poll asked whether voters would “support or oppose treating illegal entry to the United States as a civil violation rather than a criminal violation.” It then said that “civil violations are addressed by the immigration system, while criminal violations are addressed by the criminal justice system.”

Some 64% of respondents who identified as Democrats voiced support for the proposal, compared to 31% of Republicans. Total support, including by independent and unaffiliated voters, clocked in at 48%, with 32% opposed, 11% expressing no opinion, and 8% saying they didn’t know.

....

But crossing the border without authorization is also a federal crime. And Democratic presidential candidates have increasingly scrutinized the use of that 1929 law to route migrants into federal jails at the border since President Donald Trump used it to systematically split up migrant families in a widely reviled experiment last year.

Immigrant rights groups and criminal justice reformers have long criticized the policy, first implemented in 2005 under the George W. Bush administration, of fast-tracking migrants through criminal courts to vastly expand the bed space available to immigration authorities.

....

"We need to reject the absurd assertion that we cannot protect immigrants and win elections,” McElwee wrote in an email to HuffPost.

The Data For Progress poll sheds light on voters’ perception of an issue that has rarely received public debate. Presidents Bush and Obama vastly expanded immigration prosecutions using their control over the attorney general’s office to enforce existing law, rather than by trying to pass new legislation through Congress.

....

Two other surveys conducted in recent weeks drew sharply different results, likely because the pollsters’ questions intimated that repealing the illegal entry law would leave immigration violations either scaled down to fines or unpunished.

A Hill-HarrisX poll released earlier this month reached the opposite conclusion of the one commissioned by Data For Progress, with 41% of voters backing criminalization and only 31% saying the civil system should handle those offenses.

But the pollster posed a false question. The Hill-HarrisX poll asked whether voters thought migrants who cross the border without authorization should “face civil fines or should they be subject to criminal prosecution.” No one has proposed shifting immigration enforcement to a scheme based on fines. The punishments under civil law include deportation and yearslong prohibition from returning legally to the United States. ICE’s detention system that locks up more than 50,000 migrants per day and the temporary holding facilities run by Border Patrol also both operate under civil law.


I should point out that I skipped over a dozen paragraphs.

See the link.

There were seven more paragraphs after I stopped pasting.


    
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