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Author Topic:   Introducing Thugpreacha
Faith
Member
Posts: 33729
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 46 of 131 (852886)
05-19-2019 6:04 PM
Reply to: Message 44 by LamarkNewAge
05-19-2019 5:04 PM


Re: Can you clarify if Colossians looks to future heresy or past/present traditions
Now you've gone so far away from the traditional view it's too much to try to follow you. I don't want to argue about it, not much one can say about such a difference of opinion anyway, all I can really do is just state the traditional view and leave it at that.

We certainly believe that Gnosticism existed in New Testament times. Not only Paul, Paul himself, not a collective entity as you have it, wrote against it and so did John and I believe also Peter and Jude.

I read a popular book on Gnosticism during the period I was becoming a Christian and they certainly rejected, actually despised, the God of the Old Testament, and regarded Him as evil, but Jesus Christ as the true God. I don't remember their views on the OT itself. No idea how you think the author of Colossians is "anti New Testament" but of course I take him to be Paul the Apostle who wrote most of the NT anyway.

Jewish Christians weren't a separate sect unless they were "Judaizers" whom Paul condemned for misleading the Gentile believers. No idea what you mean by "European Christians" and the Gnostics weren't Christian but one of the heresies. The way I sort it, there was the new Testament and a bunch of different heresies against it.

New Testament teaching doesn't "attack" the Sabbath, let alone Yom Kippur, but teaches that in Christ it is a part of the Mosaic Law we regard as fulfilled in Him that is no longer binding on us, though we may honor it.

Sure the new moon and other practices were from the Torah but they had become misused in a way that God condemned, and in any case they no longer applied to believers in Christ. When we say that Christi fulfilled the Law we don't mean that He "attacked" it. He clearly says He didn't do away with it, it's God's Law and it is holy, so His fulfilling it validates it at the same time it releases us from its inexorable condemnation of those who remain under it. Nothing about it is "attacked," that is to completely misunderstand what Christ did in fulfilling it.

I know of no "unwritten" Torah, just the five books of Moses, and they are no "work of man" but of God.

That's the best I can do I think.

ABE: Now I see your latest post but I'm going to have to come back to it.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 44 by LamarkNewAge, posted 05-19-2019 5:04 PM LamarkNewAge has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 47 by LamarkNewAge, posted 05-19-2019 8:28 PM Faith has not yet responded

  
LamarkNewAge
Member
Posts: 1576
Joined: 12-22-2015


Message 47 of 131 (852888)
05-19-2019 8:28 PM
Reply to: Message 46 by Faith
05-19-2019 6:04 PM


Re: Can you clarify if Colossians looks to future heresy or past/present traditions
I am glad you can see my post 45, I sure can't (I can not get it to load, as it is at the bottom of a long page). I hope I pasted the right thing (made a mistake, and had to repaste the right thing.)

It should have a part about Colossians 2:14 being about the entire Law of Moses (the written law, as opposed to the "traditions" or oral Law), and no wiggle room could claim it was some "ceremonial" part of the Law.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 46 by Faith, posted 05-19-2019 6:04 PM Faith has not yet responded

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 33729
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.2


(1)
Message 48 of 131 (852892)
05-20-2019 1:15 AM
Reply to: Message 45 by LamarkNewAge
05-19-2019 5:47 PM


Re: The Law of Moses a work of man in Colossians 2:14.
Are you taking the phrase "written by man's own hand" to mean the Law is a work of man? Is that where you get that? I read it as saying we ourselves put ourselves under the Law or something like that. Not that man wrote the Torah but that in our own selves we declare it against ourselves; we know our guilt under the Law and declare it against ourselves or something like that. But I'm not sure of this, it's hard to read that long paragraph.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 45 by LamarkNewAge, posted 05-19-2019 5:47 PM LamarkNewAge has not yet responded

  
Thugpreacha
Member
Posts: 13235
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 49 of 131 (852893)
05-20-2019 8:13 AM
Reply to: Message 39 by Tangle
05-18-2019 2:45 AM


Re: Thugzy Unplugged
You need to have a word with your alter ego about bare links.
(And some sensible people don't use Facebreach.
I agree about the bare links...they could be more professionally done. Aside from "Facebreach", I will use YouTube and Twitter eventually.

Percy is a stats nerd so here are my stats so far:


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
~Stile


This message is a reply to:
 Message 39 by Tangle, posted 05-18-2019 2:45 AM Tangle has not yet responded

  
Thugpreacha
Member
Posts: 13235
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 50 of 131 (852897)
05-20-2019 11:28 AM
Reply to: Message 38 by LamarkNewAge
05-18-2019 1:19 AM


Re: Am I correct in assuming you were thinking of Colossians 2?
This is an interesting discussion and will provide me the opportunity to study along as I arrive at my own conclusions and beliefs regarding Gnosticism, (what exactly the term means) and what some would definitely call "traditional Orthodox Christianity". I believe that scripture explains itself due to the belief that I can discern it through spiritual eyes obtained through the Grace of my salvation. Funny how we all fight regarding which one of us is the actual Know-It-All. Faith, to your credit you have studied extensively, though critics would assert that you only stick to the views which you see as traditional and Orthodox. (Orthodox literally meaning "Right Teaching". ) But lest I stray too far off of the path(distracted by that giant white rabbit) let me see if I understand the terminology and the dogma which I was taught (as well as the imparted wisdom I believe I acquired)-----
Definitions:

quote:
Gnosticism: a prominent heretical movement of the 2nd-century Christian Church, partly of pre-Christian origin. The Gnostic doctrine taught that the world was created and ruled by a lesser divinity, the demiurge and that Christ was an emissary of the remote supreme divine being, esoteric knowledge (gnosis) of whom enabled the redemption of the human spirit. (...)
Gnosticism was a second-century heresy claiming that salvation could be gained through secret knowledge. Gnosticism is derived from the Greek word gnosis, meaning "to know" or "knowledge."
Based on this, I myself could be called gnostic simply due to the fact that I believe that once I was "saved" I became able to discern spiritual wisdom over and above the wisdom of this world.... !!!

EvC has taught me many things. Critical thinking being a primary lesson...as well as questioning and doubting. Our member Faith is unconcerned with critical thought---she already has her mind made up based on her belief. I can't say that she is wrong in this regard....though she views me as essentially "unsaved" due to the very idea that I even would question scripture. That's how I am wired, however...its how God made me. At times, my very human carnal self surfaces in these discussions because I feel strongly about certain beliefs and behaviors by and through others as being....quite simply...WRONG. So Faith, if you are reading along, I am confessing that I am in many ways like you. When I get mad at you for defending conservative nationalist thinking and vilifying liberal globalist secular thinking, I am not saying that your belief or perspective is wrong---I am simply irritated at the witness (as representing Christ) that you exhibit during such arguments. You and I will forever likely fuss, but I see you as a sister. Let's continue with this discussion, however. I like it!

Now...LNA on to you.

LNA, responding to Faith writes:

When did the Roman Catholic church start?
Can you provide some detail on what clued you in on the date?

Leave it to you to queue up for an intellectual argument! You ca cut & paste with the best of them! Perhaps I can jump in at this point. I think that what Faith is trying to say is that there was the true spiritual thinking of a revitalized spirit-filled Paul versus a drab ceremonial church (RCC) that in many ways was a continuation of the Pharisitical trappings of classical Judaism. She is essentially arguing that Paul wrote the scripture and that the scripture, therefore, has to be right! (a view I could agree with)
|
Note the scripture you quoted. Specifically
Col 2:8-10 writes:


8 Beware lest anyone cheat you through philosophy and empty deceit, according to the tradition of men, according to the basic principles of the world, and not according to Christ. 9 For in Him dwells all the fullness of the Godhead bodily; 10 and you are complete in Him, who is the head of all principality and power. NKJV

Are you thus arguing that Paul never wrote this? Are you also arguing that the writers were, in fact, Gnostics? Perhaps due to the enlightened, "We are Holy through Christ" teaching? Ir so I disagree. I can personally attest that God gives us wisdom. You can google and cut & paste all day and arrive at a pile of scholarly observations, but where in that pile will you find the truth?

Edited by Phat, : No reason given.


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
~Stile


This message is a reply to:
 Message 38 by LamarkNewAge, posted 05-18-2019 1:19 AM LamarkNewAge has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 51 by Tangle, posted 05-20-2019 12:10 PM Thugpreacha has responded
 Message 52 by Faith, posted 05-20-2019 1:02 PM Thugpreacha has acknowledged this reply

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 7132
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.3


(2)
Message 51 of 131 (852898)
05-20-2019 12:10 PM
Reply to: Message 50 by Thugpreacha
05-20-2019 11:28 AM


Re: Am I correct in assuming you were thinking of Colossians 2?
Phat writes:

I believe that scripture explains itself due to the belief that I can discern it through spiritual eyes obtained through the Grace of my salvation.

Phat writes:

EvC has taught me many things. Critical thinking being a primary lesson...as well as questioning and doubting.

Incompatible statements.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 50 by Thugpreacha, posted 05-20-2019 11:28 AM Thugpreacha has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 60 by Thugpreacha, posted 05-20-2019 3:09 PM Tangle has not yet responded

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 33729
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.2


(1)
Message 52 of 131 (852903)
05-20-2019 1:02 PM
Reply to: Message 50 by Thugpreacha
05-20-2019 11:28 AM


Re: Am I correct in assuming you were thinking of Colossians 2?
Critical thinking SUPPORTS the traditional view, Phat.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 50 by Thugpreacha, posted 05-20-2019 11:28 AM Thugpreacha has acknowledged this reply

Replies to this message:
 Message 53 by ringo, posted 05-20-2019 1:10 PM Faith has not yet responded
 Message 54 by PaulK, posted 05-20-2019 1:14 PM Faith has not yet responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 17570
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 3.2


Message 53 of 131 (852904)
05-20-2019 1:10 PM
Reply to: Message 52 by Faith
05-20-2019 1:02 PM


Re: Am I correct in assuming you were thinking of Colossians 2?
Faith writes:

Critical thinking SUPPORTS the traditional view


And yet you always run away from critical thinking. Critical thinking should be supportable.

Izquierdo.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 52 by Faith, posted 05-20-2019 1:02 PM Faith has not yet responded

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 15578
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.9


Message 54 of 131 (852905)
05-20-2019 1:14 PM
Reply to: Message 52 by Faith
05-20-2019 1:02 PM


Re: Am I correct in assuming you were thinking of Colossians 2?
Critical thinking leads to the fact that Book of Daniel is primarily concerned with Antiochus Epiphanes and that Daniel never existed.

Critical thinking leads to the fact that the Gospels are not historically reliable,

Does your “traditional view” accept those facts ?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 52 by Faith, posted 05-20-2019 1:02 PM Faith has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 55 by Thugpreacha, posted 05-20-2019 1:24 PM PaulK has responded

  
Thugpreacha
Member
Posts: 13235
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 55 of 131 (852906)
05-20-2019 1:24 PM
Reply to: Message 54 by PaulK
05-20-2019 1:14 PM


Re: Am I correct in assuming you were thinking of Colossians 2?
I would argue that they are not facts.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
~Stile


This message is a reply to:
 Message 54 by PaulK, posted 05-20-2019 1:14 PM PaulK has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 56 by PaulK, posted 05-20-2019 1:29 PM Thugpreacha has responded

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 15578
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.9


Message 56 of 131 (852907)
05-20-2019 1:29 PM
Reply to: Message 55 by Thugpreacha
05-20-2019 1:24 PM


Re: Am I correct in assuming you were thinking of Colossians 2?
quote:

I would argue that they are not facts

And how would you argue against the strange invisibility of Daniel in history (and the rest of the Bible) or his apparent ignorance of Nabonidus ?

How would you argue against the literary dependencies between the Synoptic Gospels, the disagreements between the Gospels (especially those concerning the post-Resurrection appearances) ?

Or even the Nativity ? Was Jesus born to a couple living in Bethlehem shortly before the reign of Herod Archelaus or to a couple resident in Nazareth shortly after that reign ?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 55 by Thugpreacha, posted 05-20-2019 1:24 PM Thugpreacha has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 57 by Faith, posted 05-20-2019 2:09 PM PaulK has responded
 Message 59 by Thugpreacha, posted 05-20-2019 2:58 PM PaulK has responded

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 33729
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 57 of 131 (852914)
05-20-2019 2:09 PM
Reply to: Message 56 by PaulK
05-20-2019 1:29 PM


Re: Am I correct in assuming you were thinking of Colossians 2?
You are arguing from an ABSENCE of information. Daniel holds together quite nicely as written. And in the case of the gospels you are making too much of tiny discrepancies which only show that different people had slightly different points of view, although I'm sure that there are plenty of scholars who can explain this better than I can. Critical thinking leads to the recognition that scripture was given to us by God and we are to read it from that point as "God-breathed" knowing that such questions as you raise are irrelevant.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 56 by PaulK, posted 05-20-2019 1:29 PM PaulK has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 58 by PaulK, posted 05-20-2019 2:15 PM Faith has not yet responded

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 15578
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.9


Message 58 of 131 (852915)
05-20-2019 2:15 PM
Reply to: Message 57 by Faith
05-20-2019 2:09 PM


Re: Am I correct in assuming you were thinking of Colossians 2?
quote:

You are arguing from an ABSENCE of information and making too much of tiny discrepancies which only show that different people had slightly different points of view.

Not just the absence of information - and even when I am it is information that should be there - and it certainly isn’t just “different points of view”. That is just completely ridiculous.

quote:

Critical thinking leads to the recognition that scripture was given to us by God and we are to read it from that point as "God-breathed" knowing that such questions as you raise are irrelevant.

By which you mean that critical thinking supports MY view - so you throw out critical thinking. But you know that’s bad so you have to pretend that you aren’t doing it even though you make it obvious.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 57 by Faith, posted 05-20-2019 2:09 PM Faith has not yet responded

  
Thugpreacha
Member
Posts: 13235
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 59 of 131 (852916)
05-20-2019 2:58 PM
Reply to: Message 56 by PaulK
05-20-2019 1:29 PM


Re: Am I correct in assuming you were thinking of Colossians 2?
As a believer, I have faced such arguments before. It is silly to deny that there are discrepancies...I am not a word-for-word literalist. I am, however, a thought-for-thought literalist. The stories point to a definite overall truth about human capability and of Gods interaction with humanity---even going so far as to suggest that a character in a book could be fictional yet through the fictionalized story actually become a real living idea. The main point of the Bible is to show humanity that God is alive even when He seems distant and imagined. Critics could well argue that we made God up...but to me, it is more folly to suggest the fact that we humans live on a dust speck of a planet---Sagans Pale Blue Dot---and have the audacity as a species of questioning, doubting, and attempting to disprove the existence of a Creator to ourselves while at the same time using mathematics to postulate the literal existence of multiverses. You are free to take the meaning of the stories any way you so choose. I find personally that when I begin to relish the role of a critic higher than I do the role of a believer I, in essence, become my own god even while rejecting the God Who Is. Not a wise move.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
~Stile


This message is a reply to:
 Message 56 by PaulK, posted 05-20-2019 1:29 PM PaulK has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 61 by PaulK, posted 05-20-2019 3:11 PM Thugpreacha has responded

  
Thugpreacha
Member
Posts: 13235
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 60 of 131 (852917)
05-20-2019 3:09 PM
Reply to: Message 51 by Tangle
05-20-2019 12:10 PM


Re: Am I correct in assuming you were thinking of Colossians 2?
It is honest to question. It is entirely a choice whether or not to doubt. Questioning need not lead to doubting nor should it weaken one's faith at all.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
~Stile


This message is a reply to:
 Message 51 by Tangle, posted 05-20-2019 12:10 PM Tangle has not yet responded

  
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