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Author Topic:   Introducing Thugpreacha
PaulK
Member
Posts: 15079
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 3.2


Message 61 of 131 (852918)
05-20-2019 3:11 PM
Reply to: Message 59 by Thugpreacha
05-20-2019 2:58 PM


Re: Am I correct in assuming you were thinking of Colossians 2?
quote:

As a believer, I have faced such arguments before. It is silly to deny that there are discrepancies...I am not a word-for-word literalist. I am, however, a thought-for-thought literalist.

The question is how you answer them - and in context how you answer them without abandoning critical thinking.

quote:

The main point of the Bible is to show humanity that God is alive even when He seems distant and imagined.

It certainly doesn’t do that for me.

quote:

...but to me, it is more folly to suggest the fact that we humans live on a dust speck of a planet---Sagans Pale Blue Dot---and have the audacity as a species of questioning, doubting, and attempting to disprove the existence of a Creator to ourselves while at the same time using mathematics to postulate the literal existence of multiverses.

It seems to me to be a far greater folly to throw out science in favour of myth and legend. Indeed, we do not argue that we can disprove a Creator - though we do argue that we can disprove the literal reading of many creation myths.

quote:

e of multiverses. You are free to take the meaning of the stories any way you so choose. I find personally that when I begin to relish the role of a critic higher than I do the role of a believer I, in essence, become my own god even while rejecting the God Who Is. Not a wise move.

The wise move is to double down on becoming your own god ? I don’t think so. Extreme skepticism is an error, of course, but the other extreme is so much worse.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 59 by Thugpreacha, posted 05-20-2019 2:58 PM Thugpreacha has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 62 by Thugpreacha, posted 05-20-2019 3:45 PM PaulK has responded

    
Thugpreacha
Member
Posts: 12441
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 62 of 131 (852921)
05-20-2019 3:45 PM
Reply to: Message 61 by PaulK
05-20-2019 3:11 PM


Re: Am I correct in assuming you were thinking of Colossians 2?
In a sense, think that we agree...we just have different approaches in so doing.

We both question.

We both have doubted at times

We both agree that the goal of applying critical thinking to our lives is not intended to be a tool used to dismiss the possibility of a Creator. Correct?


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
~Stile


This message is a reply to:
 Message 61 by PaulK, posted 05-20-2019 3:11 PM PaulK has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 63 by PaulK, posted 05-20-2019 4:01 PM Thugpreacha has responded

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 15079
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 3.2


Message 63 of 131 (852922)
05-20-2019 4:01 PM
Reply to: Message 62 by Thugpreacha
05-20-2019 3:45 PM


Re: Am I correct in assuming you were thinking of Colossians 2?
quote:

We both agree that the goal of applying critical thinking to our lives is not intended to be a tool used to dismiss the possibility of a Creator. Correct?

The goal of critical thinking is to expose falsehoods and those ideas inadequately supported by the evidence. Young Earth Creationism is the former, Deistic creation the latter.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 62 by Thugpreacha, posted 05-20-2019 3:45 PM Thugpreacha has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 64 by Thugpreacha, posted 05-20-2019 4:31 PM PaulK has responded
 Message 66 by Faith, posted 05-20-2019 5:05 PM PaulK has responded
 Message 72 by Thugpreacha, posted 05-21-2019 9:02 AM PaulK has responded

    
Thugpreacha
Member
Posts: 12441
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 64 of 131 (852930)
05-20-2019 4:31 PM
Reply to: Message 63 by PaulK
05-20-2019 4:01 PM


Re: Am I correct in assuming you were thinking of Colossians 2?
paulK writes:

The goal of critical thinking is to expose falsehoods and those ideas inadequately supported by the evidence. Young Earth Creationism is the former, Deistic creation the latter.

If a Creator existed and yet it could be scientifically "shown" that the universe need not require a Creator, as Hawking stated...it would boil down to faith rather than evidence. If no such Creator existed, those of you who have not found a reason to believe would be vindicated.

It is noteworthy that while many Christians seemed to vilify Hawking for apparently being an unbeliever, the great man himself had a few quotes of note that gave one pause to think.

  • We are in danger of destroying ourselves by our greed and stupidity. We cannot remain looking inwards at ourselves on a small and increasingly polluted and overcrowded planet.
  • My advice to other disabled people would be, concentrate on things your disability doesn't prevent you from doing well and don't regret the things it interferes with. Don't be disabled in spirit as well as physically.

    The only quote he had that, in my opinion, would make it difficult to accept God would be this last one, however.

  • In my opinion, there is no aspect of reality beyond the reach of the human mind.

    Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
    ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

    You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

    Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
    In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
    ~Stile


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 63 by PaulK, posted 05-20-2019 4:01 PM PaulK has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 65 by PaulK, posted 05-20-2019 4:51 PM Thugpreacha has acknowledged this reply

      
  • PaulK
    Member
    Posts: 15079
    Joined: 01-10-2003
    Member Rating: 3.2


    (1)
    Message 65 of 131 (852931)
    05-20-2019 4:51 PM
    Reply to: Message 64 by Thugpreacha
    05-20-2019 4:31 PM


    Re: Am I correct in assuming you were thinking of Colossians 2?
    quote:

    If a Creator existed and yet it could be scientifically "shown" that the universe need not require a Creator, as Hawking stated...it would boil down to faith rather than evidence. If no such Creator existed, those of you who have not found a reason to believe would be vindicated.

    In fact the conclusion that the evidence is insufficient to support a claim does not require the claim to be shown to be false to be vindicated. Only the conclusion that the claim is false would need that.

    And if there is insufficient evidence for belief then surely it must come down to faith.


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 64 by Thugpreacha, posted 05-20-2019 4:31 PM Thugpreacha has acknowledged this reply

        
    Faith
    Member
    Posts: 31804
    From: Nevada, USA
    Joined: 10-06-2001
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 66 of 131 (852932)
    05-20-2019 5:05 PM
    Reply to: Message 63 by PaulK
    05-20-2019 4:01 PM


    Re: Am I correct in assuming you were thinking of Colossians 2?
    The goal of critical thinking is to expose falsehoods and those ideas inadequately supported by the evidence.

    That's an inadequate definition. Critical thinking weighs whatever information is available on both sides, including vagueness, imponderables, suspected but not proven falseness, various kinds and credibility of evidence, and comes to conclusions based on the assigned weights since evidence on many subjects is really not all that compelling.


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 63 by PaulK, posted 05-20-2019 4:01 PM PaulK has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 67 by PaulK, posted 05-20-2019 5:09 PM Faith has responded
     Message 77 by Thugpreacha, posted 05-21-2019 10:54 AM Faith has responded

        
    PaulK
    Member
    Posts: 15079
    Joined: 01-10-2003
    Member Rating: 3.2


    Message 67 of 131 (852933)
    05-20-2019 5:09 PM
    Reply to: Message 66 by Faith
    05-20-2019 5:05 PM


    Re: Am I correct in assuming you were thinking of Colossians 2?
    quote:

    That's an inadequate definition. Critical thinking weighs whatever information is available on both sides, including vagueness, imponderables, suspected but not proven falseness, various kinds and credibility of evidence, and comes to conclusions based on the assigned weights since evidence on many subjects is really not all that compelling.

    A goal is not a definition. In particular it is not required to state how the goal is to be achieved.

    You would be far better advised to back up your strange assertion that critical thinking somehow leads to the view that “scripture was given to us by God” - apparently without even considering the contrary evidence.


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 66 by Faith, posted 05-20-2019 5:05 PM Faith has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 68 by Faith, posted 05-20-2019 8:29 PM PaulK has responded

        
    Faith
    Member
    Posts: 31804
    From: Nevada, USA
    Joined: 10-06-2001
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 68 of 131 (852936)
    05-20-2019 8:29 PM
    Reply to: Message 67 by PaulK
    05-20-2019 5:09 PM


    Re: Am I correct in assuming you were thinking of Colossians 2?
    Critical thinking takes into account the experience of being born again and of spiritual discernment. If you don't have it you can't take it into account of course.
    This message is a reply to:
     Message 67 by PaulK, posted 05-20-2019 5:09 PM PaulK has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 69 by PaulK, posted 05-20-2019 11:42 PM Faith has responded

        
    PaulK
    Member
    Posts: 15079
    Joined: 01-10-2003
    Member Rating: 3.2


    Message 69 of 131 (852939)
    05-20-2019 11:42 PM
    Reply to: Message 68 by Faith
    05-20-2019 8:29 PM


    Re: Am I correct in assuming you were thinking of Colossians 2?
    quote:

    Critical thinking takes into account the experience of being born again and of spiritual discernment.

    Subjective experiences and evaluations have little weight.

    I can, however observe your behaviour and your claims of “discernment” and see that objectively they offer even less to support your opinions.


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 68 by Faith, posted 05-20-2019 8:29 PM Faith has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 70 by Faith, posted 05-21-2019 12:25 AM PaulK has responded

        
    Faith
    Member
    Posts: 31804
    From: Nevada, USA
    Joined: 10-06-2001
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 70 of 131 (852940)
    05-21-2019 12:25 AM
    Reply to: Message 69 by PaulK
    05-20-2019 11:42 PM


    Critical thinking/ spiritual discernment.
    Since you yourself have no spiritual discernment, you can't judge someone else's.
    This message is a reply to:
     Message 69 by PaulK, posted 05-20-2019 11:42 PM PaulK has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 71 by PaulK, posted 05-21-2019 12:44 AM Faith has responded

        
    PaulK
    Member
    Posts: 15079
    Joined: 01-10-2003
    Member Rating: 3.2


    (2)
    Message 71 of 131 (852941)
    05-21-2019 12:44 AM
    Reply to: Message 70 by Faith
    05-21-2019 12:25 AM


    Re: Critical thinking/ spiritual discernment.
    quote:

    Since you yourself have no spiritual discernment, you can't judge someone else's.

    Sure I can. If your “spiritual discernment” is obviously not helping you understand the Bible - if I can clearly see that it’s just giving your prejudice a fancy name to exalt it (and I can) then what more is there to say ?

    I can judge your claim to “spiritual discernment” better than you can. Indeed, that would likely be true even if your judgement wasn’t marred by prejudice and irrationality and false pride.


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 70 by Faith, posted 05-21-2019 12:25 AM Faith has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 73 by Faith, posted 05-21-2019 10:17 AM PaulK has responded

        
    Thugpreacha
    Member
    Posts: 12441
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.2


    Message 72 of 131 (852945)
    05-21-2019 9:02 AM
    Reply to: Message 63 by PaulK
    05-20-2019 4:01 PM


    Before We Go Any Further...RAZD Are You There?
    I thought I would flag RAZD down to help us muddle through some of this. It is my understanding, in a strict definition of where we all stand, that I profess to be a Cosmological Creationist...in that I believe that God created all seen and unseen yet not necessarily a Biblical Creationist, which would follow a word for word literal Bible and biblical account, which is Faith's position as I understand it. Perhaps you can clarify your position, PaulK. I have understood you to be basically an atheist who defers to the latest in scientific understanding as to the origin of the universe as we know it. RAZD is more along the lines of Deistic Creation.
    Wiki writes:

    Deism (/ˈdiːɪzəm/ DEE-iz-əm [1][2] or /ˈdeɪ.ɪzəm/ DAY-iz-əm; derived from Latin "deus" meaning "god") is the philosophical belief which posits that although God exists as the uncaused First Cause – ultimately responsible for the creation of the universe – God does not interact directly with that subsequently created world. Equivalently, deism can also be defined as the view which asserts God's existence as the cause of all things, and admits its perfection (and usually the existence of natural law and Providence) but rejects divine revelation or direct intervention of God in the universe by miracles. It also rejects revelation as a source of religious knowledge and asserts that reason and observation of the natural world are sufficient to determine the existence of a single creator or absolute principle of the universe.[3][4][5]

    Deism as a form of natural theology gained prominence among intellectuals during the Age of Enlightenment, especially in Britain, France, Germany, and the United States. Typically, deists had been raised as Christians and believed in one God, but had become disenchanted with organized religion and orthodox teachings such as the Trinity, Biblical inerrancy, and the supernatural interpretation of events, such as miracles.[6] Included in those influenced by its ideas were leaders of the American and French Revolutions.[7]

    Deism is considered to exist in the classical and modern forms,[8] where the classical view takes what is called a "cold" approach by asserting the non-intervention of a deity in the natural behavior of the created universe, while the modern deist formulation can be either "warm" (citing an involved deity) or "cold" (citing an uninvolved deity). These lead to many subdivisions of modern deism, which serves as an overall category of belief.[9]

    The reason that I am not a Biblical Creationist nor Literalist (except perhaps a Thought For Thought Literalist) is a belief that is under construction and not written in stone (nor on my heart). I am now going to advertise this post on my Thugpreacha page in the hopes of drawing some of them here to our little virtual porch on EvC Forum where jar always urged newbies to "pull up a stump and set a spell".
    Todays Posts @ Thugpreacha...Note the shameless plug for the Mormons as well! They are gonna hate me!

    Edited by Phat, : No reason given.

    Edited by Phat, : No reason given.


    Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
    ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

    You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

    Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
    In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
    ~Stile


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 63 by PaulK, posted 05-20-2019 4:01 PM PaulK has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 75 by PaulK, posted 05-21-2019 10:45 AM Thugpreacha has not yet responded

      
    Faith
    Member
    Posts: 31804
    From: Nevada, USA
    Joined: 10-06-2001
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 73 of 131 (852947)
    05-21-2019 10:17 AM
    Reply to: Message 71 by PaulK
    05-21-2019 12:44 AM


    Re: Critical thinking/ spiritual discernment.
    Yeah well I'm the one who gets it right about the Bible. Sorry.
    This message is a reply to:
     Message 71 by PaulK, posted 05-21-2019 12:44 AM PaulK has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 74 by PaulK, posted 05-21-2019 10:42 AM Faith has responded

        
    PaulK
    Member
    Posts: 15079
    Joined: 01-10-2003
    Member Rating: 3.2


    (1)
    Message 74 of 131 (852948)
    05-21-2019 10:42 AM
    Reply to: Message 73 by Faith
    05-21-2019 10:17 AM


    Re: Critical thinking/ spiritual discernment.
    quote:

    Yeah well I'm the one who gets it right about the Bible. Sorry

    No, you’re the one who gets it wrong about the Bible. That’s how I know you don’t have “spiritual discernment”.


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 73 by Faith, posted 05-21-2019 10:17 AM Faith has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 76 by Faith, posted 05-21-2019 10:46 AM PaulK has responded

        
    PaulK
    Member
    Posts: 15079
    Joined: 01-10-2003
    Member Rating: 3.2


    Message 75 of 131 (852949)
    05-21-2019 10:45 AM
    Reply to: Message 72 by Thugpreacha
    05-21-2019 9:02 AM


    Re: Before We Go Any Further...RAZD Are You There?
    quote:

    Perhaps you can clarify your position, PaulK. I have understood you to be basically an atheist who defers to the latest in scientific understanding as to the origin of the universe as we know it.

    I think the best clarification is to repeat what I said. I regard Deistic Creation as an idea with inadequate support from the evidence - but not one that can be disproved. Indeed, I would say that it is unfalsifiable.


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 72 by Thugpreacha, posted 05-21-2019 9:02 AM Thugpreacha has not yet responded

        
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