This may not go very far but I wanted to get this topic off the Frightful Weather thread. I mention there that I've been reading about Ted Bundy the serial killer after seeing a couple of Netflix movies about him, and there are some incidents that stick in my mind that I find myself thinking about a lot and want to understand.
The way dogs reacted to him is one that I mentioned on that other thread, but I was just reminded of a dream the writer of this book mentioned having during the period when she was friends with Bundy and couldn't convince herself one way or the other about his guilt. She had known him as a kind empathetic young man working at a crisis counseling center with her before all the murders began and seeing him as a murderer wasn't easy.
During the period when he had been arrested but all the facts hadn't yet come out about the murders -- so far he'd been found guilty of attempted kidnapping but nothing else although there were lots of rumors tying him to the many murders of young girls over the last few years. Ann, this writer, wanted to believe he was innocent, but then she had this dream that creeps me out: She sees a car run over an infant and rushes to help the baby, tries to get others to help but they all refuse. The ambulance won't help, the ER won't help. She keeps asking people and nobody will help. People back off saying "it wouldn't help to save this baby" and so on. Then she looks at the baby and it's a demon and not a baby, and it bites her hand.
I've thought that he probably had a demon and that might have been what freaked out the dogs too since they are sensitive to all kinds of stuff we can't detect, and then she dreams of trying to save what turns out to be a demon. Of course she thinks the demon represents Bundy himself, which in a way it does, but that's mostly for people who don't believe in the reality of demons.
There's something else that was mentioned in one of the films and hinted at in this book but not yet discussed, which is that when he was preoccupied with his murdering thoughts his eyes would turn "black" or very dark. Normally they were blue. Investigators described them as turning black when he talked about certain subjects; the one intended victim who escaped described his eyes as "dark brown." I'm still reading this book and hoping more information will come out about these questions I have.
I want to figure out what all these things turn out to mean about Bundy: the barking dogs, the darkened eyes, which seem to defy anything natural I can think of, and some other things I may bring up later. I've been developing theories, a couple have already panned out.
I'm not very familiar with dogs, never had one as a pet. I'll take your word for how they should be dealt with.
I don't think Bundy had any contact with the three dogs mentioned. One was in a kennel he and his girlfriend visited hoping to find a dog for themselves, another belonged to a girl he was probably stalking to be another victim. He knocked on her door and the dog, which was a little yappy dog, went ***** snarling and barking at him. The girl remembered the occasion many years later, glad she hadn't let him in. The third case was Ann Rule's own dog that growled and snarled when Bundy bent over her desk one day at the crisis clinic. She told these last two stories in a section of the book she added fairly recently. I don't remember if there are any clues to whether the dogs were male.
Interesting you've read Ann Rule's book, it is good, more thorough and of course a lot more personal than other accounts. I can see being a True Crime aficionado though I've never taken it that far. I watch crime movies and enjoy that series "Forensic Files" but I avoid stuff I think will give me nightmares. Actually a lot of the Bundy story can do that anyway.
I also thought of the dilation possibility but I would think the investigators would have known that's what it was. Bundy was giving his "consultation" on the behavior of the murderer and his eyes darkened when he touched on some subjects. It's in the movie "The Bundy Tapes" at Netflix and maybe I'll try to find that part again. He wouldn't have been angry, just talking, and I've always thought dilation of the pupils occurred with pleasant thoughts, relaxation etc.
I got the idea that he probably had a demon from the reaction of the dogs, which seemed excessive compared to normal dog reactions to strangers. I couldn't explain how a dog would "know" that Bundy was a killer, I kept trying to think of possible explanations. Having a demon makes sense because a killer is very ****** to have a demon and a dog could sense a demon. It's a theory, Hyro, just a theory I have, but I think it makes sense.
Well, watch the Bundy Tapes. There's another movie there too, but it's fictionalized with actors, based on the book Bundy's girlfriend wrote.
Bundy had the ability to come across as completely normal, was somebody people *****, seemed to be a kind and thoughtful and empathetic person. He had all kinds of psychological tests in prison and they found nothing frankly pathological although they did come up with some interesting characteristics we can discuss. Anyway he's something of a puzzle. Girls of the age he murdered would fall in love with him and want to be in the front row at his trials. Weird.
As for the dogs' reaction, if it isn't a demon then I think you need some explanation. Their reactions were not normal reactions to strangers. What do YOU think they might have sensed?
If dogs only barked inexplicably at people who turn out to be axe murderers, then there'd be something to explain. But that's not true - dogs bark inexplicably at loads of people. So if an explanation is needed, it's nothing to do with serial killers.
Well, in this case there were three dogs that not only barked but growled and snarled very belligerently at Bundy, and the people who were there thought it very strange at the time it happened. He had committed murders at those times but it wasn't yet known to anyone. Bundy's girlfriend was very surprised at how the dog they were thinking of adopting cowered and snarled at Bundy when he came close. The dog didn't act that way toward her. The little yappy dog was also behaving in an unusual way according to its owner, not just barking but beside itself with growling at Bundy when he came to her door. She noticed that its behavior was unusual at the time just as Bundy's girlfriend did. And Ann Rule who wrote the book I'm reading, is a very sober reporter of criminal investigations who was also surprised at how her dog reacted to Bundy whom she thought was a very nice young man who couldn't do anything violent. For that reason she dismissed the dog's behavior although she'd noted that it was very unusual.
Anyway, the incidents are very similar. The people are surprised at the degree of belligerence the dogs showed to this man who was in fact a vicious killer though it wasn't known to anyone yet. It's enough I think to wonder what the dogs sensed about him.
The same line of thinking applies to the dream you mentioned, I think. There are literally billions of dreams every single day. I don't know about you, but all sorts of weird shit goes on in mine. Even if there is no special meaning in our dreams, the probability that some dream somewhere will seem suspiciously prevalent is about 100%. No explanation is needed. What would be truly mysterious and astonishing, is if, despite humans' natural skills at storytelling and forming connections, people were not finding mysterious meanings and predictions in their dreams.
Well, you may disagree again, but Ann Rule had this particular dream one night after she'd visited him in prison, during a period when she kept vacillating about whether he was guilty or innocent. It's easy enough to see that the baby in the dream is her view of Bundy as innocent, someone she is trying to help, save from an unfair justice system. The reactions of all the people around her show the growing opinion of the public that he was guilty and then of course when the baby turns out to be a demon it's like saying she needs to change her mind and understand that he is in fact guilty.
I certainly don't think all dreams have some particular meaning, or if they do we can't decipher it most of the time anyway, but there are some dreams like this one that relate so closely to real events at least you have to stop and think what they mean.
Funny, I just read about another dream she reports that is also strongly related to real events. Bundy has just escaped from the Colorado jail and she is thinking about how cold it gets at night in the mountains there and is worried about him being out in the cold. That night she dreams she is camping and has forgotten to bring blankets or a sleeping bag.
I'll repeat it: I'm talking about three dogs which, on separate occasions when encountering Ted Bundy, crouched and growled and snarled at him though he was doing nothing, just being his "nice" self. People who witnessed the dogs' behavior thought it very unusual. Nobody knew at the time that Bundy was a serial killer.
The question is What do you think the dogs sensed in Bundy that made them so belligerent toward him?
I was struck by the snarling dog in the movie and then when I heard about two other instances of the same behavior I got interested in what it might mean about Bundy. True, more information would help, more studies and so on, but all the people who saw these three incidents said they were very unusual for these dogs and they were very surprised by it. This wouldn't be the case with dogs that habitually snarl at strangers. But I agree, nothing is proved by these three events, I just find them very suggestive and interesting to think about.
Body language perhaps though he didn't strike people as projecting anything threatening. Only to his potential victims and what they reacted to was his "weird" eyes, which apparently GOT weird when he was stalking a victim, and otherwise didn't seem odd to others.
Sorting saints from sinners I would not expect to be within a dog's talents, no, that's why I postulated that he probably had a demon, which wouldn't be unexpected in a serial killer, but also wouldn't be something a study would address.
I understand that people here are probably going to dismiss these incidents that have stuck in my mind. Certainly if I speak of demons my opinion will be dismissed. But I did think the dogs' snarling at Bundy might capture more interest than it has, and that theories about it might be offered. Body language seemed like a possibility for instance though I wouldn't agree with it because he didn't come across in his normal life as conveying anything that dogs might take as threatening. But still it's a possible explanation. I don't know what else might be. Something to do with smell? But that seems farfetched. So maybe it seems to make more sense just to dismiss the dogs' behavior as nothing unusual. I guess that has to be accepted as a reasonable conclusion.
My own take remains the same of course. I think the dogs' behavior was described as definitely unusual for them in the contexts given so I'm looking for something to explain it in terms of what they might have sensed in Bundy, and the only thing that makes sense to me is that he probably had a demon, and I do think of dogs and some other animals as being sensitive to the "other world" of spiritual phenomena. And again a serial killer might be expected to have a demon. I know the general denial of such supernatural phenomena means others here can't follow me into this theory, so I just have to accept that.
I don't know if I should think of a demonic presence as explaining Bundy's extreme violence against the women he murdered, or if that is sufficiently explained by his psychology alone. The extreme destructive rage and fury he directed against the women he attacked is astonishing, as if he wanted to do as much damage and cause as much pain as he possibly could. You have to wonder where on earth that came from. What in his life led him to such rage against women?
One thing that is notable is that his victims are all so similar to each other. Ann Rule keeps pointing this out in the case of each victim, that "she had long hair parted in the middle." And most of them were between the ages of eighteen and twenty-two or so, with a few younger ones, as young as twelve. Over and over the victims were young and had long hair parted in the middle. Most of them were also exceptionally pretty. It's like he was killing the same woman over and over again. Nobody made much of this beyond Rule's constant refrain, until she points out that one psychiatrist did, saying that he seemed to be killing the same type of woman over and over but that it never satiated his compulsion so he kept having to do it again.
Here are pictures of some of his victims:
That suggests his fury was directed against one particular woman, and the main candidate for that particular woman seems to be his first girlfriend who eventually dropped him, which apparently humiliated him enough to spend a whole year seducing her back in order to reject her in turn in as sadistic a way as he could. But this theory does have some contraindications to it that also have to be taken into account.
And I'm still looking for another mention of how his eyes would turn dark and how it was the strangeness of his eyes that alerted some of his potential victims to get away from him.
well, this topic piqued my interest for sure, how to explain a serial killer. But apparently I'm not succeeding at getting anyone else as interested in it. That's okay I guess, when I started the thread I didn't think it would go far.
Re: Did anyone watch the Netflix movie on Ted Bundy?
I watched it and the other one, Conversations with a Killer, The Ted Bundy Tapes which I liked better probably because it's a documentary. The one you mention, Extremely Wicked, Shockingly Evil, and Vile , (which is what the judge said after Bundy's trial) is based on the book by Bundy's girlfriend (whose name is different in every account I've read for some reason, her privacy I guess) and I have trouble with an actor playing Bundy myself because there are so many things about him in person that are important to understanding his story. Also I read that the story is not accurate in that they decided not to show the fact that the girlfriend suspected him a long time before the movie indicates, merely for some dramatic reason. None of that makes the movie bad but since it's about real people and real events it bothered me. I did watch it though -- it's where I first got the information about the dog snarling that started me on that topic -- but I prefer the other one myself.
You are making it all up without taking into account what I've said already. The three dogs in question were said to be acting in an unusual way toward Bundy, that they were not the sort of dogs that snarled -- not just barked, snarled and growled -- at strangers, and the event in each case was noted as unusual AT THE TIME, not just in retrospect. In two cases it was the dog's owner that considered its behavior to be unusual. In the case of the visit to the kennel by Bundy and his girlfriend, the dog did NOT snarl at his girlfriend but had a conniption fit of snarling and barking and growling at Bundy. The girlfriend noted this AT THE TIME. It's fine to have a contrary opinion but it would help if it took what I've already said into account.
I'm not referring to the demon theory here so it's inadmissible in this discussion. I can think up all the generalizations myself about dog behavior that people have been using here, so something more specific about the three examples I referred to is necessary. You are right that nobody noted down their impressions at the time, so I'll give you that much, they merely remembered later that the dogs had behaved in an unusual way, which HAD struck them AT THE TIME. But this kneejerk tendency to dismiss what people say is offensive and shouldn't be accepted so readily. They remembered that at the time the dogs had behaved in an unusual way. They knew their dogs well enough to take note of that in their minds, or in the case of the kennel visit she remembered that the dog hadn't snarled at her, only at Bundy. None of these people had any reason to make an issue of the dogs anyway, it's just what they remembered after the fact. Snarling, growling, crouching at strangers is not the same as just barking at them. You don't have to postulate a demon in Bundy but you should wonder what the dogs were picking up in him. In my opinion. But of course who cares.