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Author Topic:   Ted Bundy the serial killer of the 70s
Faith
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Posts: 31804
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 1 of 63 (852780)
05-16-2019 4:59 PM


This may not go very far but I wanted to get this topic off the Frightful Weather thread. I mention there that I've been reading about Ted Bundy the serial killer after seeing a couple of Netflix movies about him, and there are some incidents that stick in my mind that I find myself thinking about a lot and want to understand.

The way dogs reacted to him is one that I mentioned on that other thread, but I was just reminded of a dream the writer of this book mentioned having during the period when she was friends with Bundy and couldn't convince herself one way or the other about his guilt. She had known him as a kind empathetic young man working at a crisis counseling center with her before all the murders began and seeing him as a murderer wasn't easy.

During the period when he had been arrested but all the facts hadn't yet come out about the murders -- so far he'd been found guilty of attempted kidnapping but nothing else although there were lots of rumors tying him to the many murders of young girls over the last few years. Ann, this writer, wanted to believe he was innocent, but then she had this dream that creeps me out: She sees a car run over an infant and rushes to help the baby, tries to get others to help but they all refuse. The ambulance won't help, the ER won't help. She keeps asking people and nobody will help. People back off saying "it wouldn't help to save this baby" and so on. Then she looks at the baby and it's a demon and not a baby, and it bites her hand.

I've thought that he probably had a demon and that might have been what freaked out the dogs too since they are sensitive to all kinds of stuff we can't detect, and then she dreams of trying to save what turns out to be a demon. Of course she thinks the demon represents Bundy himself, which in a way it does, but that's mostly for people who don't believe in the reality of demons.

There's something else that was mentioned in one of the films and hinted at in this book but not yet discussed, which is that when he was preoccupied with his murdering thoughts his eyes would turn "black" or very dark. Normally they were blue. Investigators described them as turning black when he talked about certain subjects; the one intended victim who escaped described his eyes as "dark brown." I'm still reading this book and hoping more information will come out about these questions I have.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


    
Hyroglyphx
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Posts: 5690
From: Austin, TX
Joined: 05-03-2006
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 2 of 63 (852786)
05-16-2019 5:20 PM


What exactly is your question? You seem to be making a string of declarations, not asking a question.
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Faith
Member
Posts: 31804
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 3 of 63 (852787)
05-16-2019 5:24 PM
Reply to: Message 2 by Hyroglyphx
05-16-2019 5:20 PM


I want to figure out what all these things turn out to mean about Bundy: the barking dogs, the darkened eyes, which seem to defy anything natural I can think of, and some other things I may bring up later. I've been developing theories, a couple have already panned out.
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Hyroglyphx
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Posts: 5690
From: Austin, TX
Joined: 05-03-2006
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 4 of 63 (852791)
05-16-2019 5:36 PM
Reply to: Message 3 by Faith
05-16-2019 5:24 PM


I want to figure out what all these things turn out to mean about Bundy: the barking dogs, the darkened eyes, which seem to defy anything natural I can think of, and some other things I may bring up later. I've been developing theories, a couple have already panned out.

It seems obvious that you think Ted Bundy was inhabited by demons instead of just being a sick and disgusting human being without remorse or conscience.

I also don't think dogs should be explaining what is or isn't rational behavior... my dog is terrified of baby strollers... probably because she doesn't understand what they are, not because the baby is the spawn of Satan.

Also, its been proven that anger has an effect on pupil dilation which may create the appearance of darker eyes. I wasn't looking in his eyes when he was telling the stories, but he may have been reliving the experience as he explained it. I think what you can deduce from his crimes was a feeling of rage and overkill which may account for the seeming change.

Edited by Hyroglyphx, : No reason given.

Edited by Hyroglyphx, : No reason given.


"Reason obeys itself; and ignorance submits to whatever is dictated to it" -- Thomas Paine

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ooh-child
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Posts: 231
Joined: 04-10-2009
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 5 of 63 (852792)
05-16-2019 5:41 PM
Reply to: Message 3 by Faith
05-16-2019 5:24 PM


Ann Rule's book, dog training
I read that book back when it was first out in paperback, plus many other true crime novels. I was heavily into them in the 80s & 90s. Hers was one of the best IMO.

We've trained Akitas for over 3 decades now, and one thing you learn about big dogs is never let them think they're alpha. Some of our males we've had to 'take down' on their first aggressive behavior, others have never tried. Once they've been shown who's boss they will behave cowed for some time, unless the alpha takes steps to soothe them.

I'd be curious if they were male dogs, then I'd say just normal canine behavior. Bundy probably abused them at some point.


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Faith
Member
Posts: 31804
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 6 of 63 (852797)
05-16-2019 11:22 PM
Reply to: Message 5 by ooh-child
05-16-2019 5:41 PM


Re: Ann Rule's book, dog training
I'm not very familiar with dogs, never had one as a pet. I'll take your word for how they should be dealt with.

I don't think Bundy had any contact with the three dogs mentioned. One was in a kennel he and his girlfriend visited hoping to find a dog for themselves, another belonged to a girl he was probably stalking to be another victim. He knocked on her door and the dog, which was a little yappy dog, went ***** snarling and barking at him. The girl remembered the occasion many years later, glad she hadn't let him in. The third case was Ann Rule's own dog that growled and snarled when Bundy bent over her desk one day at the crisis clinic. She told these last two stories in a section of the book she added fairly recently. I don't remember if there are any clues to whether the dogs were male.

Interesting you've read Ann Rule's book, it is good, more thorough and of course a lot more personal than other accounts. I can see being a True Crime aficionado though I've never taken it that far. I watch crime movies and enjoy that series "Forensic Files" but I avoid stuff I think will give me nightmares. Actually a lot of the Bundy story can do that anyway.


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Faith
Member
Posts: 31804
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 7 of 63 (852798)
05-16-2019 11:26 PM
Reply to: Message 4 by Hyroglyphx
05-16-2019 5:36 PM


I also thought of the dilation possibility but I would think the investigators would have known that's what it was. Bundy was giving his "consultation" on the behavior of the murderer and his eyes darkened when he touched on some subjects. It's in the movie "The Bundy Tapes" at Netflix and maybe I'll try to find that part again. He wouldn't have been angry, just talking, and I've always thought dilation of the pupils occurred with pleasant thoughts, relaxation etc.

I got the idea that he probably had a demon from the reaction of the dogs, which seemed excessive compared to normal dog reactions to strangers. I couldn't explain how a dog would "know" that Bundy was a killer, I kept trying to think of possible explanations. Having a demon makes sense because a killer is very ****** to have a demon and a dog could sense a demon. It's a theory, Hyro, just a theory I have, but I think it makes sense.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


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Hyroglyphx
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Posts: 5690
From: Austin, TX
Joined: 05-03-2006
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 8 of 63 (852799)
05-16-2019 11:52 PM
Reply to: Message 7 by Faith
05-16-2019 11:26 PM


It's in the movie "The Bundy Tapes" at Netflix

Been meaning to look into it... guess tonight is as good a night as any to start it.

I got the idea that he probably had a demon from the reaction of the dogs, which seemed excessive compared to normal dog reactions to strangers. I couldn't explain how a dog would "know" that Bundy was a killer, I kept trying to think of possible explanations. Having a demon makes sense because a killer is very ****** to have a demon and a dog could sense a demon. It's a theory, Hyro, just a theory I have, but I think it makes sense.

If my dog has a bad reaction to a person, I have my suspicions about them... not to say that my dog always makes the right choices. Animals do have certain sensitivities that we just don't possess... like the ability to sense a slight change in barometric pressure when a storm is sometimes days away or feeling vibrations that we don't feel prior to a massive earthquake. I don't think we know exactly how it works but have seen enough examples to logically conclude that they have some sense that we don't or is severely diminished by comparison.

As to the whole demon thing, you obviously know where I would land on that issue. I'll respect the fact that even Jesus talked about it, but there are very normal and logical reasons people can create the impression of demonic possession... untreated mental illness, like schizophrenia... serial killers are something different though. Psychopathy can be induced by poor pre-frontal cortex development and anti-social behavior can be caused by abuse (physical, mental, or sexual) or severe neglect. I think serial killers generally have both issues going on simultaneously so that they literally are incapable of feeling empathy and also view people as objects to control. That's just speaking in generalities. With Bundy, as far as I am aware, had a relatively normal childhood and still ended up being a complete psychopath.

Whatever the case or cause, we can all agree that Ted Bundy was a sick son-of-a-bitch that, if given the chance, would have killed hundreds if time and circumstances allowed.

Edited by Hyroglyphx, : No reason given.


"Reason obeys itself; and ignorance submits to whatever is dictated to it" -- Thomas Paine

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Faith
Member
Posts: 31804
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 9 of 63 (852800)
05-17-2019 12:04 AM
Reply to: Message 8 by Hyroglyphx
05-16-2019 11:52 PM


Well, watch the Bundy Tapes. There's another movie there too, but it's fictionalized with actors, based on the book Bundy's girlfriend wrote.

Bundy had the ability to come across as completely normal, was somebody people *****, seemed to be a kind and thoughtful and empathetic person. He had all kinds of psychological tests in prison and they found nothing frankly pathological although they did come up with some interesting characteristics we can discuss. Anyway he's something of a puzzle. Girls of the age he murdered would fall in love with him and want to be in the front row at his trials. Weird.

As for the dogs' reaction, if it isn't a demon then I think you need some explanation. Their reactions were not normal reactions to strangers. What do YOU think they might have sensed?


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ooh-child
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Posts: 231
Joined: 04-10-2009
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 10 of 63 (852812)
05-17-2019 11:13 AM
Reply to: Message 6 by Faith
05-16-2019 11:22 PM


Re: Ann Rule's book, dog training
Interesting you've read Ann Rule's book, it is good, more thorough and of course a lot more personal than other accounts. I can see being a True Crime aficionado though I've never taken it that far.

The first true crime book I read was 'Helter Skelter', about the Manson murders. I think I was around 15.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Helter_Skelter_(book)

I lived in southern CA in the late 60s, so it really hit home for me.


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Taq
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Posts: 7921
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 3.8


Message 11 of 63 (852816)
05-17-2019 12:04 PM
Reply to: Message 9 by Faith
05-17-2019 12:04 AM


Faith writes:

Bundy had the ability to come across as completely normal, was somebody people *****, seemed to be a kind and thoughtful and empathetic person. He had all kinds of psychological tests in prison and they found nothing frankly pathological although they did come up with some interesting characteristics we can discuss.

You may want to check out another Netflix series called "Mindhunter". It is based on real FBI agents who were the first to tackle the phenomena of serial killers. They start out by interviewing many different serial killers and they find some interesting commonalities. The series probably isn't completely accurate, but it's a good watch.

What I think you will find is that these types of killers are pathological, but they are able to hide it. That's what makes them so creepy.


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caffeine
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Posts: 1675
From: Prague, Czech Republic
Joined: 10-22-2008
Member Rating: 5.2


Message 12 of 63 (852819)
05-17-2019 1:11 PM
Reply to: Message 8 by Hyroglyphx
05-16-2019 11:52 PM


If my dog has a bad reaction to a person, I have my suspicions about them... not to say that my dog always makes the right choices.

Dogs are extraordinarily good at reading human beings. I don't by this mean they look at someone and divine there is something wrong with them. Your dog is probably making the 'right' choices about people because it's reading you. Your dog knows you extraordinarily well, and is remarkably attuned to even your very subtle and involuntary body language (there's a lot of experimental evidence of this kind of thing).

But, as I mentioned on the other thread, my dog barks at women standing outside for a smoke. I don't think she's getting that from my body language, nor do I think these smoking women were all secret serial killers, so who knows what's going through the dog's head. She recently started barking nervously at a bench in the distance, but I think that's because her eyes are going with age. She seemed confused what the hell it was.


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Diomedes
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From: Central Florida, USA
Joined: 09-13-2013
Member Rating: 3.3


Message 13 of 63 (852820)
05-17-2019 1:12 PM
Reply to: Message 9 by Faith
05-17-2019 12:04 AM


Bundy had the ability to come across as completely normal, was somebody people *****, seemed to be a kind and thoughtful and empathetic person. He had all kinds of psychological tests in prison and they found nothing frankly pathological although they did come up with some interesting characteristics we can discuss. Anyway he's something of a puzzle. Girls of the age he murdered would fall in love with him and want to be in the front row at his trials. Weird.

Keep in mind that at the time Bundy was being diagnosed, psychological understanding of serial killers wasn't as well established. There is still debate on the exact pathology, but you can read more about that here:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ted_Bundy#Pathology

As for the dogs' reaction, if it isn't a demon then I think you need some explanation. Their reactions were not normal reactions to strangers. What do YOU think they might have sensed?

Animals have far more acute senses than we do. Dogs especially have an extremely acute sense of smell. My suspicion is there was something about Bundy's odor that would invoke a negative reaction from a dog.

Note this come sometimes be completely innocuous. I had a friend that had a dog that often barked at me and not other people. And the reason was very simple: I had a cat and the dog had a strong dislike for cats. So the dog likely smelled residual cat odor on me and reacted accordingly.


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caffeine
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Posts: 1675
From: Prague, Czech Republic
Joined: 10-22-2008
Member Rating: 5.2


Message 14 of 63 (852822)
05-17-2019 1:26 PM
Reply to: Message 9 by Faith
05-17-2019 12:04 AM


As for the dogs' reaction, if it isn't a demon then I think you need some explanation

I don't think it needs any particular explanation. Like I said, my dog sometimes reacts inexplicably. Recently, she started barking at a small child sat on a bench across the street. The same way she reacts to someone she thinks is a threat. I have absolutely no idea what was going through her head - being a dog, she's unable to explain what it was about the girl that riled her up.

This story about my dog barking at a random girl will be quickly forgotten and pass out of people's minds, because it's not significant of anything. But imagine if I knew who that girl was, and I discover in a few years that she went crazy and murdered all her classmates. On hearing that news, I might remember that day and my dog's strange reaction. If I was the superstitious sort, I might make a connection, and assume my dog sensed something. With the passage of years and the story of the murderous rampage fresh in my mind, perhaps I will even misremember and unwittingly exaggerate the dog's behaviour; making the event seem even more significant.

But, in reality, there are loads of dogs inexplicably barking at people all the time all over the world, and these incidents are forgotten. Several dogs took a bad shine to me in Mexico for some reason (I remember puzzling at the time what Mexican dogs had against me).

If dogs only barked inexplicably at people who turn out to be axe murderers, then there'd be something to explain. But that's not true - dogs bark inexplicably at loads of people. So if an explanation is needed, it's nothing to do with serial killers.

The same line of thinking applies to the dream you mentioned, I think. There are literally billions of dreams every single day. I don't know about you, but all sorts of weird shit goes on in mine. Even if there is no special meaning in our dreams, the probability that some dream somewhere will seem suspiciously prevalent is about 100%. No explanation is needed. What would be truly mysterious and astonishing, is if, despite humans' natural skills at storytelling and forming connections, people were not finding mysterious meanings and predictions in their dreams.


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caffeine
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Posts: 1675
From: Prague, Czech Republic
Joined: 10-22-2008
Member Rating: 5.2


(1)
Message 15 of 63 (852823)
05-17-2019 1:31 PM
Reply to: Message 13 by Diomedes
05-17-2019 1:12 PM


Animals have far more acute senses than we do.

Some animals have some senses that are far more acute than ours.

I am bothered by this narrative that animals have magical senses; as if humans were walking around blind in comparison to all of our gifted cousins. Every animal has a different suite of senses; and so many animals are of course sensing things we can't. But, equally, we are often sensing things they can't.

Dogs have an enormously better sense of smell than we do, and usually better hearing. But we can see much better than they can, in both dark and light conditions. And we see more colours.


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