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Author Topic:   Ted Bundy the serial killer of the 70s
ringo
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From: frozen wasteland
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Message 16 of 63 (852824)
05-17-2019 1:33 PM
Reply to: Message 14 by caffeine
05-17-2019 1:26 PM


If dogs only barked inexplicably at people who turn out to be axe murderers, then there'd be something to explain.

Dogs are used routinely to sniff out drugs, explosives, etc. They can even be used to detect certain diseases. Surely if they could detect "evil" people reliably, that ability would have been harnessed by now.

Welcome back, Faith.

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vimesey
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Posts: 961
From: Birmingham, England
Joined: 09-21-2011
Member Rating: 5.8


(2)
Message 17 of 63 (852826)
05-17-2019 2:11 PM


My experience of dogs is that they can be very attuned to emotion. I had a dog, and she would regularly come and put her head on me and lick me when I was troubled or concerned. Dogs are also pack animals and can detect aggression and anger as well, reacting with defensiveness or docility, depending on context.

This may have to do with the pheromones we give off, small behavioural changes, facial clues, muscle tension - any number of gives, some of which are likely to be undetectable to us.

We have a very human tendency to anthropomorphise animals. There's no reason to suppose they can't detect things which humans aren't naturally able to.

Edited by vimesey, : No reason given.


Could there be any greater conceit, than for someone to believe that the universe has to be simple enough for them to be able to understand it ?

    
Faith
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From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 18 of 63 (852831)
05-17-2019 4:30 PM
Reply to: Message 11 by Taq
05-17-2019 12:04 PM


Mindhunter
I put Mindhunter on my Netflix list. It's fiction, though, right? I'll watch some of it anyway.
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Faith
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Posts: 31804
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 19 of 63 (852832)
05-17-2019 4:48 PM
Reply to: Message 14 by caffeine
05-17-2019 1:26 PM


If dogs only barked inexplicably at people who turn out to be axe murderers, then there'd be something to explain. But that's not true - dogs bark inexplicably at loads of people. So if an explanation is needed, it's nothing to do with serial killers.

Well, in this case there were three dogs that not only barked but growled and snarled very belligerently at Bundy, and the people who were there thought it very strange at the time it happened. He had committed murders at those times but it wasn't yet known to anyone. Bundy's girlfriend was very surprised at how the dog they were thinking of adopting cowered and snarled at Bundy when he came close. The dog didn't act that way toward her. The little yappy dog was also behaving in an unusual way according to its owner, not just barking but beside itself with growling at Bundy when he came to her door. She noticed that its behavior was unusual at the time just as Bundy's girlfriend did. And Ann Rule who wrote the book I'm reading, is a very sober reporter of criminal investigations who was also surprised at how her dog reacted to Bundy whom she thought was a very nice young man who couldn't do anything violent. For that reason she dismissed the dog's behavior although she'd noted that it was very unusual.

Anyway, the incidents are very similar. The people are surprised at the degree of belligerence the dogs showed to this man who was in fact a vicious killer though it wasn't known to anyone yet. It's enough I think to wonder what the dogs sensed about him.

The same line of thinking applies to the dream you mentioned, I think. There are literally billions of dreams every single day. I don't know about you, but all sorts of weird shit goes on in mine. Even if there is no special meaning in our dreams, the probability that some dream somewhere will seem suspiciously prevalent is about 100%. No explanation is needed. What would be truly mysterious and astonishing, is if, despite humans' natural skills at storytelling and forming connections, people were not finding mysterious meanings and predictions in their dreams.

Well, you may disagree again, but Ann Rule had this particular dream one night after she'd visited him in prison, during a period when she kept vacillating about whether he was guilty or innocent. It's easy enough to see that the baby in the dream is her view of Bundy as innocent, someone she is trying to help, save from an unfair justice system. The reactions of all the people around her show the growing opinion of the public that he was guilty and then of course when the baby turns out to be a demon it's like saying she needs to change her mind and understand that he is in fact guilty.

I certainly don't think all dreams have some particular meaning, or if they do we can't decipher it most of the time anyway, but there are some dreams like this one that relate so closely to real events at least you have to stop and think what they mean.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


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Taq
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Joined: 03-06-2009
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Message 20 of 63 (852833)
05-17-2019 5:15 PM
Reply to: Message 18 by Faith
05-17-2019 4:30 PM


Re: Mindhunter
Faith writes:

I put Mindhunter on my Netflix list. It's fiction, though, right? I'll watch some of it anyway.

It's "based on a true story".

quote:

Mindhunter is an American crime drama web television series created by Joe Penhall, based on the true crime book Mindhunter: Inside the FBI's Elite Serial Crime Unit written by John E. Douglas and Mark Olshaker.[2]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mindhunter_(TV_series)


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Faith
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From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 21 of 63 (852838)
05-17-2019 6:09 PM
Reply to: Message 14 by caffeine
05-17-2019 1:26 PM


Funny, I just read about another dream she reports that is also strongly related to real events. Bundy has just escaped from the Colorado jail and she is thinking about how cold it gets at night in the mountains there and is worried about him being out in the cold. That night she dreams she is camping and has forgotten to bring blankets or a sleeping bag.
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Faith
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Posts: 31804
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 22 of 63 (852855)
05-18-2019 12:08 PM


The question about the dogs
I'll repeat it: I'm talking about three dogs which, on separate occasions when encountering Ted Bundy, crouched and growled and snarled at him though he was doing nothing, just being his "nice" self. People who witnessed the dogs' behavior thought it very unusual. Nobody knew at the time that Bundy was a serial killer.

The question is What do you think the dogs sensed in Bundy that made them so belligerent toward him?

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


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Tanypteryx
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Posts: 2240
From: Oregon, USA
Joined: 08-27-2006
Member Rating: 4.5


Message 23 of 63 (852857)
05-18-2019 1:33 PM
Reply to: Message 22 by Faith
05-18-2019 12:08 PM


Re: The question about the dogs
The question is What do you think the dogs sensed in Bundy that made them so belligerent toward him?

All anyone can do is guess. Dogs have heightened senses of smell and hearing compared to humans. Plus, being pack animals they can read body language pretty well also.

I had dogs growing up but I'm not a "dog person" any longer. Dogs seem to love me. They always want me to interact with them. Even when I speak harshly and use body language to make them go away they won't leave me alone. Dog owners are always amazed, "He never acts like that with strangers, etc."

Dog owners are the ones I can't figure out though. They seem to think because they love their dog everyone else should too.


What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python

One important characteristic of a theory is that is has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie

If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --percy

The reason that we have the scientific method is because common sense isn't reliable. -- Taq


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Faith
Member
Posts: 31804
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 24 of 63 (852858)
05-18-2019 1:40 PM
Reply to: Message 23 by Tanypteryx
05-18-2019 1:33 PM


Re: The question about the dogs
It would seem that the dogs don't take you for a serial killer. So far so good.

Yes all we can do is guess about why dogs were belligerent to Ted Bundy even on first meeting him, but their behavior was so belligerent it seems worth a thoughtful guess.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
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Tanypteryx
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Posts: 2240
From: Oregon, USA
Joined: 08-27-2006
Member Rating: 4.5


Message 25 of 63 (852861)
05-18-2019 7:10 PM
Reply to: Message 24 by Faith
05-18-2019 1:40 PM


Re: The question about the dogs
Yes all we can do is guess about why dogs were belligerent to Ted Bundy even on first meeting him, but their behavior was so belligerent it seems worth a thoughtful guess.

Have you ever had a dog act belligerent toward you?

How many encounters did Bundy have with dogs that did not elicit belligerent behavior? That seems worth a thoughtful guess also.

Three times seems like it could be coincidence. Twenty times, fifty times, now that would be pretty noteworthy.

Canine behavior has been widely studied, we know lots about their senses and how sensitive they are and I have never heard of a single study that suggested that any canines can sort saints from sinners or demons.

In my experience, dogs act belligerently toward strangers a lot and their owners say something like "Oh he doesn't usually act like that.", more often than not.


What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python

One important characteristic of a theory is that is has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie

If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --percy

The reason that we have the scientific method is because common sense isn't reliable. -- Taq


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 Message 24 by Faith, posted 05-18-2019 1:40 PM Faith has responded

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Faith
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Posts: 31804
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 26 of 63 (852862)
05-18-2019 7:48 PM
Reply to: Message 25 by Tanypteryx
05-18-2019 7:10 PM


Re: The question about the dogs
OK, thanks for your opinion.

I was struck by the snarling dog in the movie and then when I heard about two other instances of the same behavior I got interested in what it might mean about Bundy. True, more information would help, more studies and so on, but all the people who saw these three incidents said they were very unusual for these dogs and they were very surprised by it. This wouldn't be the case with dogs that habitually snarl at strangers. But I agree, nothing is proved by these three events, I just find them very suggestive and interesting to think about.

Body language perhaps though he didn't strike people as projecting anything threatening. Only to his potential victims and what they reacted to was his "weird" eyes, which apparently GOT weird when he was stalking a victim, and otherwise didn't seem odd to others.

Sorting saints from sinners I would not expect to be within a dog's talents, no, that's why I postulated that he probably had a demon, which wouldn't be unexpected in a serial killer, but also wouldn't be something a study would address.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


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Faith
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Posts: 31804
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 27 of 63 (852882)
05-19-2019 2:47 PM


Some general points
I understand that people here are probably going to dismiss these incidents that have stuck in my mind. Certainly if I speak of demons my opinion will be dismissed. But I did think the dogs' snarling at Bundy might capture more interest than it has, and that theories about it might be offered. Body language seemed like a possibility for instance though I wouldn't agree with it because he didn't come across in his normal life as conveying anything that dogs might take as threatening. But still it's a possible explanation. I don't know what else might be. Something to do with smell? But that seems farfetched. So maybe it seems to make more sense just to dismiss the dogs' behavior as nothing unusual. I guess that has to be accepted as a reasonable conclusion.

My own take remains the same of course. I think the dogs' behavior was described as definitely unusual for them in the contexts given so I'm looking for something to explain it in terms of what they might have sensed in Bundy, and the only thing that makes sense to me is that he probably had a demon, and I do think of dogs and some other animals as being sensitive to the "other world" of spiritual phenomena. And again a serial killer might be expected to have a demon. I know the general denial of such supernatural phenomena means others here can't follow me into this theory, so I just have to accept that.

I don't know if I should think of a demonic presence as explaining Bundy's extreme violence against the women he murdered, or if that is sufficiently explained by his psychology alone. The extreme destructive rage and fury he directed against the women he attacked is astonishing, as if he wanted to do as much damage and cause as much pain as he possibly could. You have to wonder where on earth that came from. What in his life led him to such rage against women?

One thing that is notable is that his victims are all so similar to each other. Ann Rule keeps pointing this out in the case of each victim, that "she had long hair parted in the middle." And most of them were between the ages of eighteen and twenty-two or so, with a few younger ones, as young as twelve. Over and over the victims were young and had long hair parted in the middle. Most of them were also exceptionally pretty. It's like he was killing the same woman over and over again. Nobody made much of this beyond Rule's constant refrain, until she points out that one psychiatrist did, saying that he seemed to be killing the same type of woman over and over but that it never satiated his compulsion so he kept having to do it again.

Here are pictures of some of his victims:

That suggests his fury was directed against one particular woman, and the main candidate for that particular woman seems to be his first girlfriend who eventually dropped him, which apparently humiliated him enough to spend a whole year seducing her back in order to reject her in turn in as sadistic a way as he could. But this theory does have some contraindications to it that also have to be taken into account.

And I'm still looking for another mention of how his eyes would turn dark and how it was the strangeness of his eyes that alerted some of his potential victims to get away from him.

well, this topic piqued my interest for sure, how to explain a serial killer. But apparently I'm not succeeding at getting anyone else as interested in it. That's okay I guess, when I started the thread I didn't think it would go far.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


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Diomedes
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From: Central Florida, USA
Joined: 09-13-2013
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Message 28 of 63 (852899)
05-20-2019 12:11 PM


Did anyone watch the Netflix movie on Ted Bundy?
Just curious if anyone has taken the time to watch the Netflix movie (staring Zac Efron) on Ted Bundy? I put it in my queue but Netflix movies are often very hit and miss. So wondering if anyone might share an honest review.
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Faith
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Posts: 31804
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 29 of 63 (852900)
05-20-2019 12:29 PM
Reply to: Message 28 by Diomedes
05-20-2019 12:11 PM


Re: Did anyone watch the Netflix movie on Ted Bundy?
I watched it and the other one, Conversations with a Killer, The Ted Bundy Tapes which I liked better probably because it's a documentary. The one you mention, Extremely Wicked, Shockingly Evil, and Vile , (which is what the judge said after Bundy's trial) is based on the book by Bundy's girlfriend (whose name is different in every account I've read for some reason, her privacy I guess) and I have trouble with an actor playing Bundy myself because there are so many things about him in person that are important to understanding his story. Also I read that the story is not accurate in that they decided not to show the fact that the girlfriend suspected him a long time before the movie indicates, merely for some dramatic reason. None of that makes the movie bad but since it's about real people and real events it bothered me. I did watch it though -- it's where I first got the information about the dog snarling that started me on that topic -- but I prefer the other one myself.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


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Taq
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Posts: 7921
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 3.8


(1)
Message 30 of 63 (852908)
05-20-2019 1:36 PM
Reply to: Message 27 by Faith
05-19-2019 2:47 PM


Re: Some general points
Faith writes:


So maybe it seems to make more sense just to dismiss the dogs' behavior as nothing unusual. I guess that has to be accepted as a reasonable conclusion.

Dogs bark at strangers all of the time. I would also assume that there are many serial killers who had dogs of their own who loved them and were loved back.

My own take remains the same of course. I think the dogs' behavior was described as definitely unusual for them in the contexts given so I'm looking for something to explain it in terms of what they might have sensed in Bundy, and the only thing that makes sense to me is that he probably had a demon,

I think it is much more likely that people read more into dramatic events than in their everyday lives. Bundy may have passed 50 dogs, but if someone remembers just 1 dog barking at Bundy they will remember that more and exaggerate it in their mind because it is linked to Bundy. Humans are actually poor witnesses because our emotions at the time of an event can drastically color our memories.


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