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Author Topic:   Some states protect women's rights
Faith 
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Message 2 of 286 (853036)
05-21-2019 8:16 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Chiroptera
05-21-2019 7:21 PM


Yes there are still those who think there is a right to kill a healthy developing child. No wonder the nation is under God's judgment.

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Faith 
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From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
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Message 5 of 286 (853064)
05-22-2019 9:55 AM
Reply to: Message 4 by Pressie
05-22-2019 6:55 AM


To Coragyps and Pressie: That's just a silly rationalization. Would you kill a toddler because it isn't yet an adult? So why would you kill an embryo or a fetus that is inexorably going to become a child if you don't kill it? It's got ALL the genetic material the child will have, it's just in an earlier stage of development. I know you feel better about killing it because of that but you are kidding yourself.

AND BESIDES, most abortions are done after it LOOKS LIKE a child, maybe a tiny child but indisputably a child, a human being, and plenty are done well past the tiny child point when you really can't ignore the fact that it's a child.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


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Faith 
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From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
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Message 8 of 286 (853102)
05-22-2019 12:05 PM
Reply to: Message 6 by Chiroptera
05-22-2019 10:59 AM


That's surprising, but OK. Nevertheless a fetus is genetically a full human being so it's not an empty rationalization to call it a child. Why does someone have an abortion anyway? Because she KNOWS it's a child and for whatever reason doesn't want a child at this time. She isn't going to have a fetus, she's going to have a child if she doesn't abort it. Calling it a fetus or an embryo really is just a way to avoid the truth.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


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Faith 
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From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
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Message 10 of 286 (853116)
05-22-2019 1:41 PM
Reply to: Message 9 by ringo
05-22-2019 12:22 PM


1. The concern that she's not able to care for a child isn't much of a justification for killing it.

2. With all the services available these days, both public and private, it's not TOO hard to get help, but if all else fails isn't adoption preferable to killing it?

3. Pro-life people run all kinds of services all over the country to help pregnant women so your snark is unwarranted.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


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Faith 
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From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
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Message 13 of 286 (853121)
05-22-2019 2:17 PM
Reply to: Message 12 by Tanypteryx
05-22-2019 2:02 PM


Wherever services are inadequate I recommend that prolifers beef them up.

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Faith 
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From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
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Message 16 of 286 (853126)
05-22-2019 2:44 PM
Reply to: Message 14 by ringo
05-22-2019 2:22 PM


I don't call them murderers, in fact you criticize me for not calling them murderers or not calling abortion murder. However, I think it is crucially important for women to know that abortion is killing an unborn child, because that's the only way the reality of the situation will affect their attitude toward abortion. The usual propaganda about abortion leaves it very vague what exactly is going on, using scientific terms like fetus and embryo to suggest it isn't really a living baby, aiming not to upset the pregnant woman and cause her to reject abortion. If she thinks it's not really a child, not a living thing even, abortion won't bother her.

But sometimes women inadvertently find out that it really is a living baby in spite of all the propaganda and that discovery can be very traumatic. Seeing the aborted fetus in the trash can when it does "look like a baby" has been the unhappy experience of some women who become terribly depressed as a result. I think we all know it's a baby in spite of ourselves anyway and that's why many women get depressed after an abortion even when they rationalize it away.

I had to see a film in which the fetus sucks its thumb and reacts to pain in the womb to realize that it is a living human being. That's what happened to Abby Johnson when she was running an abortion clinic. The reality finally came home to her that abortion kills human beings.

Pro-choicers knock themselves out trying to keep us from recognizing this reality, and it IS reality. When you KNOW the reality, that it IS a living human being, your conscience won't let you kill it. That's rock bottom. That's where we need to start talking on this subject, not on the level of "women's rights" which is a monumental deception since there is no way for a sane society to establish a Right to kill a human being at any stage of its development.

OF COURSE this is where pro-lifers focus, it is THE central issue, but you are wrong that we don't care about the women's situation and that's why there are services available all over the country (except Alabama?). They can always be improved of course._

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


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Faith 
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From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
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Message 17 of 286 (853127)
05-22-2019 2:46 PM
Reply to: Message 15 by Tanypteryx
05-22-2019 2:37 PM


We don't need the government for any of this. It's the churches that run these services. So it's the churches that need to improve them where they are inadequate.

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Faith 
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From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
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Message 24 of 286 (853151)
05-23-2019 1:31 AM
Reply to: Message 22 by JonF
05-22-2019 4:49 PM


I think your lists are the lies. I've never heard those things. I suppose CPC do present objections to abortion but there's no reason to think they do it as stupidly as you like to think. Nobody forces the women to stay through the pregnancy, they can go get an abortion if that's what they decide to do, but of course the CPC does its best to convince her that this is a baby and abortion kills babies. Your stuff sounds like fake news to me, propaganda to discredit these services. What, you found ONE such service somewhere so that tars all of them? there must be thousands of them across the country.

When I mentioned these services I was thinking of how they help to get women through a pregnancy. That is their purpose. They provide supplies, there is a gynecologist who is available on a schedule, they provide living quarters if necessary, they provide help with employment if necessary, they provide counseling and discuss at great length whether the woman/girl wants to keep the baby or give it up for adoption, and they provide whatever preparation is needed for whichever she chooses. To my mind all this IS the help you say we conservatives don't offer along with our pro-life objections to abortion. It's really quite a lot of help.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


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Faith 
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From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
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Message 40 of 286 (853418)
05-27-2019 11:56 AM
Reply to: Message 39 by Chiroptera
05-27-2019 9:40 AM


Re: No obligation to let others use your body.
The idea of bodily sovereignty or autonomy, or having no obligation to be a host to "another," meaning a developing baby, is really really weird. The baby forms by Nature, is not put there by itself or by anyone. You really want women to regard themselves as put upon by Nature? As having the right to kill the developing child within her for this bizarre reason? I can barely make sense of this point of view.

Maybe if you wanted to hold the man responsible who got her pregnant we could talk? Maybe he could pay all her costs -- or half of them or something. I'm certainly not advocating that she has a right to kill it in any case, but if its father has abandoned her I'm for holding him responsible.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


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Faith 
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From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
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Message 44 of 286 (853463)
05-27-2019 7:10 PM
Reply to: Message 43 by DrJones*
05-27-2019 2:19 PM


Re: No obligation to let others use your body.
I guess if I don't lke my lver I could ask to have it cut out of me. The Izquierdo might think that a very good idea.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


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Faith 
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From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
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Message 46 of 286 (853468)
05-27-2019 7:38 PM
Reply to: Message 45 by Dogmafood
05-27-2019 7:25 PM


Re: No obligation to let others use your body.
I know you thought hard about it, and I know you didn't and don't regard it as a child even though you use that word, but since it was a child, if you could see it as a child, you would have to go into mourning for it, as I did for my aborted child twenty years after the fact when I finally faced that it was a child. In my case I'd even had a dream a few days after the abortion of a small child, maybe two years old, waving to me out of the back window of a hearse and I still didn't mourn, I just thought it was an interesting dream. It took seeing babies in the womb in a movie, very early fetuses even, to come to mourn it. Even thinking of it now makes me cry. I know, however, as King David knew about his baby with Bathsheba, that I will meet that child in the presence of Jesus after I die. Nevertheless it still makes me cry to think about it.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


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Faith 
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Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
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Message 48 of 286 (853472)
05-27-2019 7:59 PM
Reply to: Message 47 by DrJones*
05-27-2019 7:45 PM


Re: No obligation to let others use your body.
yeah I guess there's nothing too bizarre to give as an example for the Izquierdo.

I keep thinking how a real newborn baby elicits a love from the mother that in most cases is never felt in this llfe in any other context. It was to me an amazing experience. I had had an easy pregnancy but I think that love would have made up for any degree of discomfort emotional or physical. Not all new mothers have this experience but I know many who do. If this is "Nature's" motivation for taking care of babies it certainly works. I couldn't feel that for my llver. But then I'd be dead anyway.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


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Faith 
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From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
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Message 50 of 286 (853474)
05-27-2019 8:03 PM
Reply to: Message 49 by Dogmafood
05-27-2019 8:02 PM


Re: No obligation to let others use your body.
You could not kill a real child, I simply cannot believe you. You've talked yourself into this but not faced the reality of what a child is. When you first saw your other children as newborns, could you have killed them?

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


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Faith 
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Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 53 of 286 (853483)
05-27-2019 9:37 PM
Reply to: Message 52 by AZPaul3
05-27-2019 9:26 PM


Re: Is the fetus a human being? Is it a living creature that we allow you to kill?
In the case of childbirth, what "others" are "determining what you can do with your body?" Nature? Until very recently abortion wasn't even possible anyway. Oh forget it I'm tired of arguing for the obvious in this environment.

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Faith 
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Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


(1)
Message 56 of 286 (853501)
05-28-2019 3:53 AM
Reply to: Message 51 by Dogmafood
05-27-2019 8:19 PM


Re: No obligation to let others use your body.
Picture your newborn child with some affliction that you could not overcome. Picture your newborn child suffering in agony only to die after you have exhausted your every effort. Picture yourself helpless and impotent and responsible.

If that was your situation then I am truly sympathetic with your plight. That is THE situation that I would find the hardest to llve with, that would make abortion seem the best most humane option for all concerned. I don't think I could support abortion in the end anyway, but I have to say I'd have to think and pray it through a thousand times before I could decide, and I could never criticize anyone who chose that solution. Of all the reasons people give for abortion that is the only one that is persuasive to me. Thanks for describing it.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


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