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Author Topic:   Some states protect women's rights
Sarah Bellum
Member
Posts: 224
Joined: 05-04-2019
Member Rating: 2.4


Message 226 of 283 (856493)
07-01-2019 11:46 AM
Reply to: Message 199 by AZPaul3
06-19-2019 5:26 AM


Re: No obligation to let others use your body.
I'm sure you've done the research, so I don't know why you ask, but, here it is:

From across the pond

quote:
https://www.express.co.uk/...-MP-outrage-at-39-week-abortion

EXCLUSIVE: MP outrage at 39-week abortion

SHOCKED MPs have called for a change to Britain’s “medieval and cruel” abortion laws after a termination was carried out on a baby only days before it was due to be born By Caroline Wheeler PUBLISHED: 00:00, Sun, Jul 13, 2014

It was aborted 39 weeks into pregnancy under guidelines that allow termination where there is a “significant risk” the child will be disabled.

Department of Health figures show that last year a further three abortions were carried out on mothers who were 38 weeks pregnant and two more on women 37 weeks into pregnancy.

Conservative MP Fiona Bruce, co-chair of the All-Party Parliamentary Pro-life Group, said: “I do not understand how we can have a law which allows the life of a baby with a disability to be ended at full term. It is a graphic illustration of society’s inconsistency on disability.

“After birth we work hard to ensure equality, but before birth we have laws to prevent the disabled taking their first breath. This medieval, cruel, discriminatory law must change.”

Labour MP Rob Flello added: “We have a Jekyll and Hyde approach to disability. One one hand the entire country can be united in praise of paralympians. On the other we can permit the abortion of children at nine months simply for the crime of having a disability.

NHS guidelines consider a baby is full-term at 37 weeks, though most women go into labour between 38 and 42 weeks into their pregnancy.

Abortion beyond 24 weeks can only legally be carried out if there is a grave risk to the life of the mother or there is severe foetal abnormality.

Such a procedure routinely involves giving the baby an injection, usually of potassium, into its heart so it dies before the process starts.

Last year there were 190 abortions beyond the 24-week limit, almost 20 per cent up on the previous year.

Most were carried out under a legal definition known as Ground E, where there is “substantial risk that if the child were born it would suffer from such physical or mental abnormalities as to be seriously handicapped”.

Last year a parliamentary commission called for change in the law after hearing rules even allowed abortions at 40 weeks on grounds of disability.

It learned that abortions can be carried out on babies with a cleft lip or club foot, conditions that can be rectified after birth. One doctor reported that on some occasions a wrong diagnosis had been given and the dead foetus was found to have no disability.

So far there has been no official Government response to the report.
IPSO Regulated Copyright ©2019 Express Newspapers. "Daily Express" is a registered trademark. All rights reserved.



This message is a reply to:
 Message 199 by AZPaul3, posted 06-19-2019 5:26 AM AZPaul3 has acknowledged this reply

    
Sarah Bellum
Member
Posts: 224
Joined: 05-04-2019
Member Rating: 2.4


Message 227 of 283 (856494)
07-01-2019 11:48 AM
Reply to: Message 200 by AZPaul3
06-19-2019 5:28 AM


Re: No obligation to let others use your body.
From across the pond
quote:
https://www.express.co.uk/...-MP-outrage-at-39-week-abortion

EXCLUSIVE: MP outrage at 39-week abortion

SHOCKED MPs have called for a change to Britain’s “medieval and cruel” abortion laws after a termination was carried out on a baby only days before it was due to be born By Caroline Wheeler PUBLISHED: 00:00, Sun, Jul 13, 2014

It was aborted 39 weeks into pregnancy under guidelines that allow termination where there is a “significant risk” the child will be disabled.

Department of Health figures show that last year a further three abortions were carried out on mothers who were 38 weeks pregnant and two more on women 37 weeks into pregnancy.

Conservative MP Fiona Bruce, co-chair of the All-Party Parliamentary Pro-life Group, said: “I do not understand how we can have a law which allows the life of a baby with a disability to be ended at full term. It is a graphic illustration of society’s inconsistency on disability.

“After birth we work hard to ensure equality, but before birth we have laws to prevent the disabled taking their first breath. This medieval, cruel, discriminatory law must change.”

Labour MP Rob Flello added: “We have a Jekyll and Hyde approach to disability. One one hand the entire country can be united in praise of paralympians. On the other we can permit the abortion of children at nine months simply for the crime of having a disability.

NHS guidelines consider a baby is full-term at 37 weeks, though most women go into labour between 38 and 42 weeks into their pregnancy.

Abortion beyond 24 weeks can only legally be carried out if there is a grave risk to the life of the mother or there is severe foetal abnormality.

Such a procedure routinely involves giving the baby an injection, usually of potassium, into its heart so it dies before the process starts.

Last year there were 190 abortions beyond the 24-week limit, almost 20 per cent up on the previous year.

Most were carried out under a legal definition known as Ground E, where there is “substantial risk that if the child were born it would suffer from such physical or mental abnormalities as to be seriously handicapped”.

Last year a parliamentary commission called for change in the law after hearing rules even allowed abortions at 40 weeks on grounds of disability.

It learned that abortions can be carried out on babies with a cleft lip or club foot, conditions that can be rectified after birth. One doctor reported that on some occasions a wrong diagnosis had been given and the dead foetus was found to have no disability.

So far there has been no official Government response to the report.
IPSO Regulated Copyright ©2019 Express Newspapers. "Daily Express" is a registered trademark. All rights reserved.



This message is a reply to:
 Message 200 by AZPaul3, posted 06-19-2019 5:28 AM AZPaul3 has acknowledged this reply

    
Sarah Bellum
Member
Posts: 224
Joined: 05-04-2019
Member Rating: 2.4


Message 228 of 283 (856495)
07-01-2019 11:52 AM
Reply to: Message 202 by ringo
06-25-2019 11:40 AM


Re: Partial birth abortion is not an accurate term
The article says, "In a widely-publicized interview with The New York Times in 1997, Ron Fitzsimmons, executive director of the National Coalition of Abortion Providers, estimated that in the majority of cases, the procedure is performed on a healthy mother and healthy fetus that is 20 weeks or more along in development."
This message is a reply to:
 Message 202 by ringo, posted 06-25-2019 11:40 AM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 234 by AZPaul3, posted 07-01-2019 2:48 PM Sarah Bellum has responded
 Message 261 by ringo, posted 07-02-2019 11:39 AM Sarah Bellum has responded

    
Sarah Bellum
Member
Posts: 224
Joined: 05-04-2019
Member Rating: 2.4


Message 229 of 283 (856496)
07-01-2019 11:55 AM
Reply to: Message 203 by Theodoric
06-25-2019 1:05 PM


Re: Partial birth abortion is not an accurate term
The passage quoted says, in part, "...then pulling the fetus through it feet first until only the head remained inside. Using scissors or another sharp instrument, the head was then punctured..."
This message is a reply to:
 Message 203 by Theodoric, posted 06-25-2019 1:05 PM Theodoric has not yet responded

    
Sarah Bellum
Member
Posts: 224
Joined: 05-04-2019
Member Rating: 2.4


Message 230 of 283 (856497)
07-01-2019 11:57 AM
Reply to: Message 224 by ringo
07-01-2019 9:56 AM


Re: Is the fetus a human being? Is it a living creature that we allow you to kill?
But we do have laws, surely you agree that some of them are not "dictating"!
This message is a reply to:
 Message 224 by ringo, posted 07-01-2019 9:56 AM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 231 by ringo, posted 07-01-2019 2:05 PM Sarah Bellum has responded

    
ringo
Member
Posts: 16806
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 3.4


Message 231 of 283 (856531)
07-01-2019 2:05 PM
Reply to: Message 230 by Sarah Bellum
07-01-2019 11:57 AM


Re: Is the fetus a human being? Is it a living creature that we allow you to kill?
Sarah Bellum writes:

But we do have laws, surely you agree that some of them are not "dictating"!


Read my lips: I'm only talking about laws that would force somebody to carry around an unwanted (and potentially dangerous) body part. Are you suggesting that such a law would not be dictatorial?

All that are in Hell, choose it. -- CS Lewis
That's just egregiously stupid. -- ringo

This message is a reply to:
 Message 230 by Sarah Bellum, posted 07-01-2019 11:57 AM Sarah Bellum has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 257 by Sarah Bellum, posted 07-01-2019 10:48 PM ringo has responded

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 4258
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 3.7


Message 232 of 283 (856534)
07-01-2019 2:30 PM
Reply to: Message 223 by Faith
07-01-2019 7:52 AM


Re: Law, Bill promoting late term abortions
Well, since it is a national health service, and bureaucracies being what they are, I can't imagine they wouldn't keep such records.

Also, please realize, there has always been legally sanctioned abortion in the USofA in cases where the mother's health was threatened. Nothing different from today's laws. The legal struggle is with elective abortion.

Abortion opponents, who want to return to the 1950s when illegal elective abortions caused the deaths of thousands of women and their babies through unsanitary procedures, are using the mental nightmare of 39-week abortions to inflame their passions.

Fact is such abortions, with mom's health in danger, have *always* been allowed and performed.

You want to inflame passions with 39-week abortion? Show me one that was elective, unnecessary, and allowed by law.

Show me a 39-week abortion.


Eschew obfuscation. Habituate elucidation.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 223 by Faith, posted 07-01-2019 7:52 AM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 233 by Faith, posted 07-01-2019 2:44 PM AZPaul3 has responded

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 32133
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 233 of 283 (856537)
07-01-2019 2:44 PM
Reply to: Message 232 by AZPaul3
07-01-2019 2:30 PM


Re: Law, Bill promoting late term abortions
That is insane. The idea that you need to kill a baby at that stage for the health of the mother? That is beyond insane. The baby is viable and if its presence is a threat then delivering it either normally or with a C section can't possibly harm the mother. Good grief.

Who's trying to inflame passions? I just respond to what I hear. You can stop with the smear campaign any time now.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 232 by AZPaul3, posted 07-01-2019 2:30 PM AZPaul3 has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 235 by AZPaul3, posted 07-01-2019 3:01 PM Faith has responded

    
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 4258
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 3.7


Message 234 of 283 (856538)
07-01-2019 2:48 PM
Reply to: Message 228 by Sarah Bellum
07-01-2019 11:52 AM


Re: Partial birth abortion is not an accurate term
the procedure is performed on a healthy mother and healthy fetus that is 20 weeks or more along in development.

That is still a very small number of the abortions performed.

From the CDC:

quote:
Women in their twenties accounted for the majority of abortions in 2015 and throughout the period of analysis. The majority of abortions in 2015 took place early in gestation: 91.1% of abortions were performed at ≤13 weeks’ gestation; a smaller number of abortions (7.6%) were performed at 14–20 weeks’ gestation, and even fewer (1.3%) were performed at ≥21 weeks’ gestation. In 2015, 24.6% of all abortions were early medical abortions (a non-surgical abortion at ≤8 weeks’ gestation).

CDCs Abortion Surveillance System


Eschew obfuscation. Habituate elucidation.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 228 by Sarah Bellum, posted 07-01-2019 11:52 AM Sarah Bellum has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 258 by Sarah Bellum, posted 07-01-2019 10:53 PM AZPaul3 has acknowledged this reply

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 4258
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 3.7


Message 235 of 283 (856540)
07-01-2019 3:01 PM
Reply to: Message 233 by Faith
07-01-2019 2:44 PM


Re: Law, Bill promoting late term abortions
That is insane. The idea that you need to kill a baby at that stage for the health of the mother?

Do you really think these things are done in a vacuum?

Do you know that at these later stages of gestation such procedures are only done with the approval of the hospital's ethics committee?

There are sound medical reasons for these procedures. They are not out to kill just for the jollies of killing.


Eschew obfuscation. Habituate elucidation.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 233 by Faith, posted 07-01-2019 2:44 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 236 by Faith, posted 07-01-2019 3:22 PM AZPaul3 has responded

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 32133
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 236 of 283 (856545)
07-01-2019 3:22 PM
Reply to: Message 235 by AZPaul3
07-01-2019 3:01 PM


Re: Law, Bill promoting late term abortions
Let me just say that today's "ethics" are not what they used to be.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 235 by AZPaul3, posted 07-01-2019 3:01 PM AZPaul3 has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 237 by AZPaul3, posted 07-01-2019 5:57 PM Faith has responded

    
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 4258
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 3.7


Message 237 of 283 (856577)
07-01-2019 5:57 PM
Reply to: Message 236 by Faith
07-01-2019 3:22 PM


Re: Law, Bill promoting late term abortions
Correct. They are so much better than they used to be before such procedures were crafted and, these days, they actually take the woman's wishes into consideration.

The reason I know all this is because a work mate of mine's wife was in an accident about 4 years ago. At some +22 weeks gestation the ethics committee deciding her case chose a riskier procedure in hopes of saving the kid when she asked them to keep the kid alive. Didn't work. Too premature. Kid was lost 2 days after.

Your ideas on the ethics used is woefully naive and self-serving.

Edited by AZPaul3, : No reason given.


Eschew obfuscation. Habituate elucidation.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 236 by Faith, posted 07-01-2019 3:22 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 238 by Faith, posted 07-01-2019 6:00 PM AZPaul3 has responded

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 32133
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 238 of 283 (856578)
07-01-2019 6:00 PM
Reply to: Message 237 by AZPaul3
07-01-2019 5:57 PM


Re: Law, Bill promoting late term abortions
Oh really. One example I'd agree with doesn't make your case.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 237 by AZPaul3, posted 07-01-2019 5:57 PM AZPaul3 has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 239 by AZPaul3, posted 07-01-2019 6:06 PM Faith has responded

    
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 4258
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 3.7


Message 239 of 283 (856580)
07-01-2019 6:06 PM
Reply to: Message 238 by Faith
07-01-2019 6:00 PM


Re: Law, Bill promoting late term abortions
Yes, of course. Only a True ChristianTM can make ethical decisions.

You christians really hate everything.


Eschew obfuscation. Habituate elucidation.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 238 by Faith, posted 07-01-2019 6:00 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 240 by Faith, posted 07-01-2019 6:15 PM AZPaul3 has responded

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 32133
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 240 of 283 (856581)
07-01-2019 6:15 PM
Reply to: Message 239 by AZPaul3
07-01-2019 6:06 PM


Re: Law, Bill promoting late term abortions
I only h a y t e evll.

Interesting how you can use those words but I can't.

There wouldn't be any civil rights at all, any generally peaceful civilized life, any sense of shared community, any trust between people, any of the good things you take for granted in America, without Christianity, but you think we oppose all that. How utterly perverse.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 239 by AZPaul3, posted 07-01-2019 6:06 PM AZPaul3 has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 241 by ringo, posted 07-01-2019 6:21 PM Faith has responded
 Message 247 by AZPaul3, posted 07-01-2019 6:59 PM Faith has responded

    
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