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Author Topic:   Conservative Racism
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 6264
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.5


Message 181 of 205 (854635)
06-11-2019 8:13 AM
Reply to: Message 180 by Faith
06-10-2019 11:29 PM


Re: The WWII Catholic Ratlines
What is Phayer's evudence?

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up why would you have to lie?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 180 by Faith, posted 06-10-2019 11:29 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 182 by Faith, posted 06-11-2019 10:12 AM Theodoric has not yet responded

    
Faith
Member
Posts: 31650
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 182 of 205 (854644)
06-11-2019 10:12 AM
Reply to: Message 181 by Theodoric
06-11-2019 8:13 AM


Re: The WWII Catholic Ratlines
The link I posted here goes to a truncated Wikipedia page instead of the one I intended to link, but that page is still available if you put "Ratlines" in Google and then scroll to the first Wikipedia entry that has the same address as the one linked here. That's the complete page I linked and there are two footnotes to Phayer. The second goes to a page in a book, and if you scroll down a few paragraphs you'll find a reference to a document in the Argentine archives reporting that the Pope was behind the Ratlines. But it's secondhand information so you can ignore it, which I'm sure you have every desire to do.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 181 by Theodoric, posted 06-11-2019 8:13 AM Theodoric has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 190 by PaulK, posted 06-11-2019 2:53 PM Faith has not yet responded

    
ringo
Member
Posts: 16626
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 3.0


(2)
Message 183 of 205 (854653)
06-11-2019 11:59 AM
Reply to: Message 167 by foreveryoung
06-10-2019 7:52 PM


Re: No this is not about racism
foreveryoung writes:

Faith would be a racist if she believes caucasians are superior to all other races.


"Superiority" doesn't necessarily enter into it. Racism is the idea that people should be treated differently because of their "race".

foreveryoung writes:

She wants limits on immigration. Not all countries are equal. Some have more to offer America than others.


Immigration isn't by country; it's by individuals. And it isn't possible to predetermine who's going to make the greatest contribution, or whose children are going to make the greatest contribution.

foreveryoung writes:

Iran is fiercely Islamic. How would it's people feel if Christians made up over 50 percent of the nation over a very short period of time.


Are you suggesting that we should emulate Iran?

foreveryoung writes:

Culture is not race.


Well, it pretty much is. You said yourself that there is really no such thing as "race" any more. You seem to be trying to narrow the definition of racism to exclude almost everybody. As I said to Faith, it's worse to actually be a racist than to be called a racist. You guys should stop worrying about what people call you and start checking yourself for traces of racism.

foreveryoung writes:

If you bring in new cultures, it has to be at a slow pace...


Maybe you should take a look at US history around the turn of the twentieth century and a little place called Ellis Island.

foreveryoung writes:

... otherwise, society fragments and you have a recipe for civil war.


Again, take a look at US history. They did have a civil war and it was about racism.

foreveryoung writes:

If cultures dont blend and become one new culture, hostility is bound to escalate. That type of society is ideal for a totalitarian dictatorship in order to keep peace and order. Another result of such a society is that politicians will pit these disparate groups as victims of a boogey man which is generally the culture that either is the dominant one or recently was dominant.


You're talking about the fascist Trump pandering to racists. You're shooting yourself in the foot.

All that are in Hell, choose it. -- CS Lewis
That's just egregiously stupid. -- ringo

This message is a reply to:
 Message 167 by foreveryoung, posted 06-10-2019 7:52 PM foreveryoung has not yet responded

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 6264
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.5


Message 184 of 205 (854655)
06-11-2019 12:13 PM
Reply to: Message 180 by Faith
06-10-2019 11:29 PM


Re: The WWII Catholic Ratlines
Post the link to the page in the book. I do not see any footnotes that link to a page in the book. The book does not seem to be available online.

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up why would you have to lie?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 180 by Faith, posted 06-10-2019 11:29 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 185 by Faith, posted 06-11-2019 2:00 PM Theodoric has responded
 Message 188 by Faith, posted 06-11-2019 2:16 PM Theodoric has responded

    
Faith
Member
Posts: 31650
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 185 of 205 (854665)
06-11-2019 2:00 PM
Reply to: Message 184 by Theodoric
06-11-2019 12:13 PM


Re: The WWII Catholic Ratlines
Here's the link to the book:

https://books.google.com/books?id=UR3mDAAAQBAJ&pg=PA64#v=...


This message is a reply to:
 Message 184 by Theodoric, posted 06-11-2019 12:13 PM Theodoric has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 186 by Theodoric, posted 06-11-2019 2:11 PM Faith has responded

    
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 6264
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.5


Message 186 of 205 (854668)
06-11-2019 2:11 PM
Reply to: Message 185 by Faith
06-11-2019 2:00 PM


Re: The WWII Catholic Ratlines
The pages referenced in the footnotes are not available in this preview. You made this statement.

The second goes to a page in a book, and if you scroll down a few paragraphs you'll find a reference to a document in the Argentine archives reporting that the Pope was behind the Ratlines.

You should be able to just post the link. You claim to have linked to this info from the book. Why can you not provide it?


Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up why would you have to lie?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 185 by Faith, posted 06-11-2019 2:00 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 187 by Faith, posted 06-11-2019 2:13 PM Theodoric has not yet responded

    
Faith
Member
Posts: 31650
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 187 of 205 (854669)
06-11-2019 2:13 PM
Reply to: Message 186 by Theodoric
06-11-2019 2:11 PM


Re: The WWII Catholic Ratlines
The link I just posted in Message 185 goes straight to the page in the book.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 186 by Theodoric, posted 06-11-2019 2:11 PM Theodoric has not yet responded

    
Faith
Member
Posts: 31650
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 188 of 205 (854670)
06-11-2019 2:16 PM
Reply to: Message 184 by Theodoric
06-11-2019 12:13 PM


Re: The WWII Catholic Ratlines
It's footnote #4
This message is a reply to:
 Message 184 by Theodoric, posted 06-11-2019 12:13 PM Theodoric has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 189 by Theodoric, posted 06-11-2019 2:50 PM Faith has responded

    
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 6264
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.5


(3)
Message 189 of 205 (854674)
06-11-2019 2:50 PM
Reply to: Message 188 by Faith
06-11-2019 2:16 PM


Re: The WWII Catholic Ratlines
This is not the Phayer book. This is someone debunking him. Not much of a smoking gun. I have no idea why you would think this would support your contention. The writer makes it clear that the evidence "supposedly" exists and it "supposedly" was written in the name of Pius XII. Until that letter can be verified there is no evidence directly linking the Pope to the ratlines.

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up why would you have to lie?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 188 by Faith, posted 06-11-2019 2:16 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 192 by Faith, posted 06-11-2019 8:36 PM Theodoric has not yet responded

    
PaulK
Member
Posts: 15037
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 3.2


(3)
Message 190 of 205 (854675)
06-11-2019 2:53 PM
Reply to: Message 182 by Faith
06-11-2019 10:12 AM


Re: The WWII Catholic Ratlines
quote:

The second goes to a page in a book, and if you scroll down a few paragraphs you'll find a reference to a document in the Argentine archives reporting that the Pope was behind the Ratlines.

No, it doesn’t claim that. The letter - if it exists, and if it is genuine and if it was correctly described was written by “Cardinal Giovanni Battista Montini“. If I have identified the man correctly the conversation must have taken place somewhere in the years 1959-63 when Giovanni Battista Montini was a Cardinal. He was not at the time the letter was supposedly written, although he was a senior aide to the Pope.

The letter, is described as being in the Pope’s name and supposedly asks the Argentine government to take in people suspected of aiding the Nazi cause. We do not have the text of the letter but this would be an odd way to describe high-ranking Nazis.

As the author admits “...in itself this document alone would not confirm the ratline thesis”


This message is a reply to:
 Message 182 by Faith, posted 06-11-2019 10:12 AM Faith has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 191 by AZPaul3, posted 06-11-2019 7:33 PM PaulK has responded

    
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 4097
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 3.6


Message 191 of 205 (854698)
06-11-2019 7:33 PM
Reply to: Message 190 by PaulK
06-11-2019 2:53 PM


Re: The WWII Catholic Ratlines
So what you’re saying is that a senior aide to the Pope may/not have written a letter to the Argentine government to take up Nazis.

What does the Vatican have to say? The Argentine Government? US Intellegence (do you really think we wouldn’t know)?

We do not have the text of the letter but this would be an odd way to describe high-ranking Nazis.

Maybe not to a diplomatic Vatican.


Eschew obfuscation. Habituate elucidation.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 190 by PaulK, posted 06-11-2019 2:53 PM PaulK has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 194 by PaulK, posted 06-11-2019 11:46 PM AZPaul3 has responded

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 31650
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 192 of 205 (854701)
06-11-2019 8:36 PM
Reply to: Message 189 by Theodoric
06-11-2019 2:50 PM


Re: The WWII Catholic Ratlines
I did not say the book was by Phayer, it's simply a book that references him, but the mention of a letter in the name of the Pope to the Argentine government asking them to take in Nazis -- which I told you was secondhand information since the original letter wasn't available to the author of the book -- is a very interesting claim it seems to me, suggesting there probably is a real letter behind it. But I knew you wouldn't accept it, as I said when I first brought it up.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 189 by Theodoric, posted 06-11-2019 2:50 PM Theodoric has not yet responded

    
Faith
Member
Posts: 31650
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 193 of 205 (854706)
06-11-2019 9:05 PM


Some years ago I started a blog to collect information on the Roman Church. I didn't keep it up for long unfortunately but I did make a list of books on the subject that I hoped to read although I only read a few of them. I just looked at that list wondering if any of them cover the Nazi events and I really can't tell. Avro Manhattan's book The Vatican Holocaustis about Croatia, although chapter 14 seems to mention the ratlines, and it strongly implicates the US by the way:

The blog
https://enemyofchrist.blogspot.com/
Avro Manhattan book:
http://www.reformation.org/holocaus.html
Chapter 14 of that book:
http://www.reformation.org/holoc14.html

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


    
PaulK
Member
Posts: 15037
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 3.2


Message 194 of 205 (854708)
06-11-2019 11:46 PM
Reply to: Message 191 by AZPaul3
06-11-2019 7:33 PM


Re: The WWII Catholic Ratlines
I am saying that a paper within the book says that if the letter was confirmed to say what was claimed then it should be considered sufficient evidence of Vatican involvement to require further investigation.

Given that there is no more information on the letter - by my estimation more than 50 years since it was mentioned - I don’t think we can be certain that it even existed.

We don’t know who it was meant to cover either. People suspected of collaboration with the Nazis would fit the description well - and may indeed have been in real fear for their lives.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 191 by AZPaul3, posted 06-11-2019 7:33 PM AZPaul3 has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 195 by AZPaul3, posted 06-12-2019 12:20 AM PaulK has not yet responded

    
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 4097
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 3.6


Message 195 of 205 (854709)
06-12-2019 12:20 AM
Reply to: Message 194 by PaulK
06-11-2019 11:46 PM


Re: The WWII Catholic Ratlines
Well, shucks.

Tying the Vatican to the Nazis, especially as the Nazis had lost and were looking for escape, fits my moral indignation needs.

Gods church on earth playing wink-wink with the Nazis is an outrage of the most basic human values and gives me a great deal of reason to flip off at the Vatican, which is something I rather enjoy doing.

But now you tell me it is not so. Damn.

Well, ok. Back to Irish babies and alter boys.


Eschew obfuscation. Habituate elucidation.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 194 by PaulK, posted 06-11-2019 11:46 PM PaulK has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 196 by Faith, posted 06-12-2019 12:56 AM AZPaul3 has responded

  
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