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Author Topic:   Conservative Racism
Tangle
Member
Posts: 6998
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 3.9


Message 526 of 610 (860000)
08-05-2019 3:08 AM
Reply to: Message 491 by Theodoric
08-04-2019 1:27 PM


Re: Krugman on "American carnage"
Theodoric writes:

About Sam Harris?

Yes.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 491 by Theodoric, posted 08-04-2019 1:27 PM Theodoric has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 528 by Theodoric, posted 08-05-2019 10:13 AM Tangle has responded

  
Chiroptera
Member
Posts: 6761
From: Oklahoma
Joined: 09-28-2003
Member Rating: 5.4


(2)
Message 527 of 610 (860013)
08-05-2019 8:48 AM
Reply to: Message 518 by Faith
08-04-2019 9:52 PM


Re: New Hampshire also "infested" according to Trump
Um, I don't suppose you recall that Cummings had first insulted Trump about his immigration views.

Even if Cummings insulted Trump first, and even if we agree that returning insults is the appropriate response, then Trump should have chosen one that didn't have racist overtones.

Because by choosing a racist insult, Trump didn't just insult Cummings, he was insulting all black Americans. He wasn't just telling Cummings to shut up, he was telling all black Americans to mind their place.


It says something about the qualities of our current president that the best argument anyone has made in his defense is that he didn't know what he was talking about. -- Paul Krugman

This message is a reply to:
 Message 518 by Faith, posted 08-04-2019 9:52 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 536 by Faith, posted 08-05-2019 11:26 AM Chiroptera has responded

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 6485
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.4


Message 528 of 610 (860023)
08-05-2019 10:13 AM
Reply to: Message 526 by Tangle
08-05-2019 3:08 AM


Sam Harris
Rationalwiki does a good job looking at Harris and his views.
https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Sam_Harris

Some quick examples from rational wiki.

quote:
In a podcast with Douglas Murray, Milo Yiannopoulos came up for discussion. Harris said "the Milo I've seen is very far from being a Neo-Nazi or someone whose attitudes are truly of the right. That's probably not an accident, he's flamboyantly gay and half Jewish, so I don't know how right wing he could be in the end."[45] While pedantically true that someone who is gay, Jewish, and understands the first thing about Nazi ideology likely wouldn't support it, you can still be a Right Wing Nut Job without being a Nazi per se, so either Harris is remarkably unaware of Milo's history as an alt-right Breitbart editor, or he's got a very limited idea of what counts as "far-right wing".

quote:
Sam Harris has seriously considered racial science and the concept of race determining intelligence [36]. Harris invited Charles Murray onto his podcast in 2017 to discuss his widely criticized book 'The Bell Curve'. Critics have claimed Harris simply failed to ask any challenging or skeptical question of Murray and presented him as the 'victim of a politically-correct moral panic'[37]. Harris said that Murray was "the intellectual who was treated most unfairly in my lifetime."

quote:
saying that feminists must "agitate" and fight against Muslim oppression of women rather than focus so much on abortion rights at home.[39] Harris admonishes Western feminists to instead join him against his primary obsession: the sexually repressive artifacts of Islamic culture.[40] Harris claimed in a podcast[41] with Kyle Kulinski that Western feminists "spend more time complaining about Gamergate" than actually pushing for women's rights.

Harris also seems to think he can whitesplain racism to blacks. HIs arguments are laid bare to show how utterly crass they are.
https://www.huffpost.com/...-sam-harris-gets-wron_b_11680182

Though Harris may not be alt right but he certainly is an enabler and does not seem willing to criticize their views.

This is not something I just dreamed up. Others have come to this conclusion also.
http://www.thefreethinktank.com/alt-right-sceptic-community/

quote:
Even though most of these people would deny being a part of the alt-right, the usual line being that they are advocates of facts, not politics – they, intentionally or not, do court the alt-right movement. They offer legitimacy and support for their ideas and fuel for the movement.

https://www.salon.com/...new-atheism-slid-into-the-alt-right
A good look at how new atheism is closely aligned with the alt right.

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up why would you have to lie?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 526 by Tangle, posted 08-05-2019 3:08 AM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 539 by Tangle, posted 08-05-2019 1:01 PM Theodoric has responded

    
JonF
Member
Posts: 5286
Joined: 06-23-2003
Member Rating: 2.4


Message 529 of 610 (860024)
08-05-2019 10:19 AM
Reply to: Message 515 by Faith
08-04-2019 7:32 PM


Re: Billions of dollars and no results
and there is not a single hint as to how the money given over all those years was allotted or used,

Biullshit.

quote:
Community Development Block Grants, flexible funding that allows local governments to deliver housing renovations, economic development and recreational facilities to low-income neighborhoods.

and the evidence appears to be that it didn't do even a bit of good for the problem we are discussing.

And you know this how? It didn't eliminate the problem, but perhaps it ameliorated the problem. Blame the Federal Government for not allocating it properly or not supplying enough. Of course if Trump had his way there'd be no money.

Remember you said:

so where did those billions go? Obviously not to fixing the problem.

You now know where most of them went at the direction of the Feds, and it's not at all obvious the small amount allocated to fixing the problem didn't help.

Edited by JonF, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 515 by Faith, posted 08-04-2019 7:32 PM Faith has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 532 by dwise1, posted 08-05-2019 10:52 AM JonF has responded

  
JonF
Member
Posts: 5286
Joined: 06-23-2003
Member Rating: 2.4


Message 530 of 610 (860025)
08-05-2019 10:20 AM
Reply to: Message 523 by Faith
08-05-2019 1:10 AM


Re: New Hampshire also "infested" according to Trump
Non sequitur.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 523 by Faith, posted 08-05-2019 1:10 AM Faith has not yet responded

  
Chiroptera
Member
Posts: 6761
From: Oklahoma
Joined: 09-28-2003
Member Rating: 5.4


Message 531 of 610 (860027)
08-05-2019 10:22 AM


Laila Lalami on "Go Back".
Laila Lalami has written a column in The Nation:

Trump Has Brought Back 'Conditional Citizenship'

She touches on some of the issues being discussed here.

None of this is to say that whites, particularly those who are poor or without a college education, don’t struggle. Of course they do.... But it is to say that when white Americans blast the government for not solving these problems, they are not told that they should be silent or that they should “go back.”

It says something about the qualities of our current president that the best argument anyone has made in his defense is that he didn't know what he was talking about. -- Paul Krugman

  
dwise1
Member
Posts: 3633
Joined: 05-02-2006
Member Rating: 3.8


Message 532 of 610 (860045)
08-05-2019 10:52 AM
Reply to: Message 529 by JonF
08-05-2019 10:19 AM


Re: Billions of dollars and no results
Typo that needs correction (added bolding):

You no know where most of them went at the direction of the Feds, ...

Do you mean: "You do know where ... "?

Or do you mean: "You do not know where ... "?

I cannot think of any other interpretations for that obvious typographical error.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 529 by JonF, posted 08-05-2019 10:19 AM JonF has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 534 by Chiroptera, posted 08-05-2019 10:57 AM dwise1 has not yet responded
 Message 535 by JonF, posted 08-05-2019 11:19 AM dwise1 has not yet responded

    
Chiroptera
Member
Posts: 6761
From: Oklahoma
Joined: 09-28-2003
Member Rating: 5.4


(3)
Message 533 of 610 (860048)
08-05-2019 10:56 AM
Reply to: Message 519 by Hyroglyphx
08-04-2019 9:55 PM


Re: Krugman on "American carnage"
Because the context that I shared was one of not defending Trump but of discussing the exaggerations of the Regressive Left wing of the Democratic Party. This is now the third time to try to steer the conversation towards that and every time you dodge it.

You tried to illustrate "the exaggerations of the Regressive Left wing" with an example that turns out to be bonafide racism. If you want to discuss unfair accusations of racism, you need to find a better example. Or do a better example of convincing us that your example really is relevant. It's not really dodging an issue if you're failed to demonstrate there actually is an issue.

-

Your mind immediately drew a connection to rat-infested hellhole with black people. That's kind of amazing to me...

I know. You tried to gain a rhetorical advantage by accusing me of racism. It didn't work. I not only continued to explain how Trump's comments were racist, but I tried to explain why it matters who the target is.

If my explanations are unclear, I'm willing to make another attempt.

-

...voices in the middle are getting drowned out by the shrill voices of the extreme on both sides.

If being in the middle means ignoring blatant examples of racism in our important government officials, then I'm not sure that the middle is really morally defensible position.


It says something about the qualities of our current president that the best argument anyone has made in his defense is that he didn't know what he was talking about. -- Paul Krugman

This message is a reply to:
 Message 519 by Hyroglyphx, posted 08-04-2019 9:55 PM Hyroglyphx has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 547 by Hyroglyphx, posted 08-05-2019 7:19 PM Chiroptera has acknowledged this reply

  
Chiroptera
Member
Posts: 6761
From: Oklahoma
Joined: 09-28-2003
Member Rating: 5.4


Message 534 of 610 (860049)
08-05-2019 10:57 AM
Reply to: Message 532 by dwise1
08-05-2019 10:52 AM


Re: Billions of dollars and no results
I think he meant, " You now know..."

It says something about the qualities of our current president that the best argument anyone has made in his defense is that he didn't know what he was talking about. -- Paul Krugman

This message is a reply to:
 Message 532 by dwise1, posted 08-05-2019 10:52 AM dwise1 has not yet responded

  
JonF
Member
Posts: 5286
Joined: 06-23-2003
Member Rating: 2.4


(1)
Message 535 of 610 (860053)
08-05-2019 11:19 AM
Reply to: Message 532 by dwise1
08-05-2019 10:52 AM


You now know when... fixed.Re: Billions of dollars and no results
You now know where...

Fixed.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 532 by dwise1, posted 08-05-2019 10:52 AM dwise1 has not yet responded

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 32605
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 536 of 610 (860055)
08-05-2019 11:26 AM
Reply to: Message 527 by Chiroptera
08-05-2019 8:48 AM


Re: New Hampshire also "infested" according to Trump
Trump should have chosen one that didn't have racist overtones.

But you are the one finding racis overtones in what Trump said, otherwise there is nothing racist in it, it's an accurate description of the conditions he was talking about, and many others have said the same thing. The point is to try to set a fire under the people who might be able to do something about the problems.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 527 by Chiroptera, posted 08-05-2019 8:48 AM Chiroptera has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 538 by dwise1, posted 08-05-2019 12:55 PM Faith has responded
 Message 541 by JonF, posted 08-05-2019 1:37 PM Faith has not yet responded
 Message 545 by Chiroptera, posted 08-05-2019 2:56 PM Faith has not yet responded

    
ringo
Member
Posts: 17138
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.2


(1)
Message 537 of 610 (860069)
08-05-2019 12:01 PM
Reply to: Message 523 by Faith
08-05-2019 1:10 AM


Re: New Hampshire also "infested" according to Trump
Faith writes:

A man who gives his rightful paycheck as President to charity doesn't sound like a man who does anything to defraud the government.


A thief who puts money in the poor box is still a thief.

"Come all of you cowboys and don't ever run
As long as there's bullets in both of your guns"
-- Woody Guthrie

This message is a reply to:
 Message 523 by Faith, posted 08-05-2019 1:10 AM Faith has not yet responded

  
dwise1
Member
Posts: 3633
Joined: 05-02-2006
Member Rating: 3.8


(1)
Message 538 of 610 (860080)
08-05-2019 12:55 PM
Reply to: Message 536 by Faith
08-05-2019 11:26 AM


Re: New Hampshire also "infested" according to Trump
But you are the one finding racis overtones in what Trump said, ...

The racists among Trump's followers find them too. Like the El Paso terrorist who used many things said in Trump's tweets.

The point is to try to set a fire under the people who might be able to do something about the problems.

No, the point is to attack the person who is issuing subpoenas for documents and witnesses so that his committee can conduct its investigations that are needed in their constitutional role of oversight. Subpoenas that Trump is doing everything he can to block, including diverting public attention away from the fact of his ongoing obstruction.

The point is also to cater to the racists in his base by using their language.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 536 by Faith, posted 08-05-2019 11:26 AM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 540 by Faith, posted 08-05-2019 1:13 PM dwise1 has responded

    
Tangle
Member
Posts: 6998
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 3.9


Message 539 of 610 (860082)
08-05-2019 1:01 PM
Reply to: Message 528 by Theodoric
08-05-2019 10:13 AM


Re: Sam Harris
Theodoric writes:

Even though most of these people would deny being a part of the alt-right, the usual line being that they are advocates of facts, not politics – they, intentionally or not, do court the alt-right movement. They offer legitimacy and support for their ideas and fuel for the movement.

I just picked this out because it seems the most pertinent.

First off Sam Harris is liberal. He would deny being alt right because he very obviously isn't. He's a defender of science and evidence based thinking andy has built a reputation on it. I really can't take these alt right accusations seriously.

And it seems his opponents don't either; their actual complaint is that he's an 'enabler'. Well that's a wonderful accusation. Basically it means that if an idea or a piece of evidence that can be used and abused by a real arsehole to promote their bad ideas it most go unsaid - even if true. That's a total nonsense.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 528 by Theodoric, posted 08-05-2019 10:13 AM Theodoric has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 544 by Theodoric, posted 08-05-2019 2:14 PM Tangle has not yet responded

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 32605
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 540 of 610 (860083)
08-05-2019 1:13 PM
Reply to: Message 538 by dwise1
08-05-2019 12:55 PM


Re: New Hampshire also "infested" according to Trump
Guilt by association is usually considered to be a false and dangerous standard for judgment of anyone. Unless of course he's Trump, then any old accusation will do.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 538 by dwise1, posted 08-05-2019 12:55 PM dwise1 has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 542 by JonF, posted 08-05-2019 1:39 PM Faith has not yet responded
 Message 543 by dwise1, posted 08-05-2019 2:07 PM Faith has not yet responded

    
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