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Author Topic:   Conservative Racism
JonF
Member
Posts: 5286
Joined: 06-23-2003
Member Rating: 2.4


Message 541 of 610 (860090)
08-05-2019 1:37 PM
Reply to: Message 536 by Faith
08-05-2019 11:26 AM


Re: New Hampshire also "infested" according to Trump
The blacks and the white nationalists see racism in his tweets.

They're the experts.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 536 by Faith, posted 08-05-2019 11:26 AM Faith has not yet responded

  
JonF
Member
Posts: 5286
Joined: 06-23-2003
Member Rating: 2.4


Message 542 of 610 (860092)
08-05-2019 1:39 PM
Reply to: Message 540 by Faith
08-05-2019 1:13 PM


Re: New Hampshire also "infested" according to Trump
Birds of a feather flock together.

Lie down with dogs, get up with fleas.

His associations say a lot.


This message is a reply to:
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dwise1
Member
Posts: 3633
Joined: 05-02-2006
Member Rating: 3.8


Message 543 of 610 (860103)
08-05-2019 2:07 PM
Reply to: Message 540 by Faith
08-05-2019 1:13 PM


Re: New Hampshire also "infested" according to Trump
This is not guilt by association.

Trump has no ideology, but he knows how to read a crowd and how to play to it. Regardless of how racist he may or may not be, he keeps playing to the racists in his base, elevating the level of their hate and their fear and providing them the cover to express those hates and fears openly. To openly act upon those hates and fears.

It is no coincidence that hate crimes committed by whites have skyrocketed. And it is only now, right now, after almost three years of increasing incidents of domestic terrorism committed by whites that Trump has finally spoken out condemning white supremacy and domestic terrorism (though I'm not sure whether he has actually used the "t-word" yet).

Of course, we have no way of telling what he'll say a few days from now. Trump has a long history of completely changing his position from day to day.


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Theodoric
Member
Posts: 6485
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.4


Message 544 of 610 (860104)
08-05-2019 2:14 PM
Reply to: Message 539 by Tangle
08-05-2019 1:01 PM


Re: Sam Harris
Sam Harris is not a liberal. He holds some liberal positions but he is not a liberal. He has said and published many things that are extremely right wing.

Yes he has built up a reputation of a defender of science and critical thinking when in reality his beliefs and comments belie that. His support of Milos and Charles Murray show a very white supremacist regressive thought pattern. Things that are not supported by science.
Just because he is anti-trump does not make him a liberal. Just because he is not an anti-Semite does not make him a liberal. His ideas and views about islam, racism, transgender and women are not supported by science.
Sam Harris can best be described as a reactionary. He can call him self liberal or on the left all day long, but he is in fact a reactionary.

quote:
How about if Harris were to admit to his center-Right position and struggle to draw the looney conservatives a bit leftward, rather than falsely claiming to be a Leftist in order to pull progressives to the Right? He might actually do some good for a change.

https://freethoughtblogs.com/...joe-rogan-and-tucker-carlson

There are plenty of people exposing Harris for his right wing tendencies. You might want to look around and see what they have to say.
More critiques.
https://freethoughtblogs.com/...llent-critique-of-sam-harris
https://queereka.com/.../21/sam-harris-epic-transphobic-fail

He may defend evidence based thinking but he does not take it into account personally it seems.


Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up why would you have to lie?


This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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Chiroptera
Member
Posts: 6761
From: Oklahoma
Joined: 09-28-2003
Member Rating: 5.4


(7)
Message 545 of 610 (860111)
08-05-2019 2:56 PM
Reply to: Message 536 by Faith
08-05-2019 11:26 AM


Re: New Hampshire also "infested" according to Trump
...it's an accurate description of the conditions he was talking about, and many others have said the same thing.

But some kind of literal, dictionary "accuracy" isn't really germane, is it? Something doesn't have to be false in order to be racist. What makes it racist is the context: who said it, to whom was it said, what were the choice of words, what images do the words bring to mind to the intended audience (in this case, Trumps supporters), what visceral feelings do the words invoke in traditionally oppressed minorities who hear them, and what was the true meaning of the statement.

So what is the context? As a member of the legislative branch's oversight committees, Cummings has a responsibility to oversee, among other things, the conditions of the executive branch's management of immigrant detention centers. As a result, Cummings is an important critic of the conditions found in the detention centers.

Trump doesn't like to be criticized, so he's telling Cummings to shut up. How is he telling him to shut up? By associating him with the failures in his district. Why else would he bring up the problems in Baltimore? It can't be because they are analogous; they are very different problems with different causes and require different solutions. They have nothing to do with one another, so there can't be any reason to bring up Baltimore except to label Cummings as a failure by association.

And how does associating Cummings with Baltimore make him a failure? It can't be because he's somehow personally responsible for whatever conditions are in his district. Unlike the current humanitarian crisis in immigrant detention centers (which are the direct result of orders given by Trump himself), the problems in Baltimore predate Cumming's career, have deep, complicated structural causes, and will require the cooperation of many agencies spread over several levels of government; and in all this time Cummings has been but one member among many others of the legislative branch. It is absurd to think that somehow Cummings has to single-handedly solve Baltimore's problems before he can criticize Trumps policies, and I don't believe this is what Trump is saying.

And now let's look at Trump's choice of words. It has long been a feature of racist thought that black people's problems are caused by black people themselves due to their own failures. This much should be obvious. I have read white pundits criticize black ghetto culture, I have read politicians gin up fear among whites about black crime, I have heard my own relatives talk about "those people" and "they way they live". Black people are associated in the minds of racists with ghettos and crime and dysfunctional families, not to mention laziness and personal irresponsibility. When racist think about black people, one of the associations they make is rat-infested slums.

Black people understand this. They have watch the same depictions of black people on TV, they see the same news programs, they overhear white people talking, and they can read the comments and letters to the editor that racists write. So when they hear a white person talking about a black majority area being "rat-infested", they understand quite well what associations are being made.

So when a known racist like Trump responds to legitimate criticism by bringing up an inappropriate comparison that is in no way analogous to the criticism he's receiving and he's using language that he's already been informed has racist implications, what do we conclude?

I conclude that he's telling a black person to mind his place and to quit bothering white people because black people are too irresponsible and unreliable and self-centered to really matter. This pretty much fits with Trump's usual behavior; it explains why his white racist base is excited by this; and the other explanations seem to me to be strained.

Edited by Chiroptera, : A pretty unfortunate typo. Found a couple of others, too.


It says something about the qualities of our current president that the best argument anyone has made in his defense is that he didn't know what he was talking about. -- Paul Krugman

This message is a reply to:
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Taq
Member
Posts: 7997
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 3.8


(3)
Message 546 of 610 (860148)
08-05-2019 5:47 PM
Reply to: Message 543 by dwise1
08-05-2019 2:07 PM


Re: New Hampshire also "infested" according to Trump
dwise1 writes:

Trump has no ideology, but he knows how to read a crowd and how to play to it.

Indeed. Trump is more of a mirror being held up to his electorate. What he does and says is meant to appeal to whomever is standing in front of him at that moment. A chameleon would be jealous.


This message is a reply to:
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Hyroglyphx
Member
Posts: 5781
From: Austin, TX
Joined: 05-03-2006
Member Rating: 1.8


Message 547 of 610 (860166)
08-05-2019 7:19 PM
Reply to: Message 533 by Chiroptera
08-05-2019 10:56 AM


Re: Krugman on "American carnage"
You tried to illustrate "the exaggerations of the Regressive Left wing" with an example that turns out to be bonafide racism. If you want to discuss unfair accusations of racism, you need to find a better example. Or do a better example of convincing us that your example really is relevant. It's not really dodging an issue if you're failed to demonstrate there actually is an issue.

The truth is that no matter what I say or what kind of evidence is presented will never suffice because then you'd be confronted with reality as it were, not as you wish it to be. This country has gotten infinitely more sensitive with respect to race and has used it as a club to quickly dispatch one's political opponents. And that is because when it comes to something like this, which is often measured by interpretations, the power lies within the accusation, not the facts. Its literally akin to proving that strawberry ice cream tastes better than chocolate... (which it clearly doesn't) All levity aside, this ultimately comes down to how people view things... and that it something difficult for either of us to convince the other of.

Having said that, you see no difference in the amount of racially charged content on the air within the past decade? I would say that we're going backwards... not forwards. And this isn't because racism is becoming more prevalent, its because our threshold for what qualifies as "racist" has lowered to the point of absurdity.

I know. You tried to gain a rhetorical advantage by accusing me of racism. It didn't work. I not only continued to explain how Trump's comments were racist, but I tried to explain why it matters who the target is.

Just pointing out that perhaps your subconscious is crying out! When I think of a rat-infested hellhole, I think of a shitty, run down place... my mind doesn't make a connection to black people. Sorry to disappoint.

If being in the middle means ignoring blatant examples of racism in our important government officials, then I'm not sure that the middle is really morally defensible position.

If being on the Left for you means that lowering a race is the only way to elevate another then I'll happily reside in the middle where true equality exists. I'm just trying to make the world a better place and perhaps you are too, for however misguided it might be. But your heart's in the right place, so I can't find fault in that.


"Reason obeys itself; and ignorance submits to whatever is dictated to it" -- Thomas Paine

This message is a reply to:
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DrJones*
Member
Posts: 1915
From: Edmonton, Alberta, Canada
Joined: 08-19-2004
Member Rating: 4.7


(1)
Message 548 of 610 (860168)
08-05-2019 7:58 PM
Reply to: Message 524 by Faith
08-05-2019 1:12 AM


Re: New Hampshire also "infested" according to Trump
are you suggesting that should i be a bigger man than the president? The concept of "being the bigger man" hasn't once flitted across Trump's syphilis riddled brain in all of his years.
This message is a reply to:
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Chiroptera
Member
Posts: 6761
From: Oklahoma
Joined: 09-28-2003
Member Rating: 5.4


(1)
Message 549 of 610 (860373)
08-07-2019 10:08 AM


Backlash against NYT headline
From The Guardian:

New York Times changes front-page Trump headline after backlash

Not exactly analogous to the issues we were just discussing, but some of the principles are on display here.

In reporting Trumps response to the El Paso terrorist shooting, The New York Times originally ran the article with the headline:

TRUMP URGES UNITY VS RACISM

As Nate Silver put it:

Not sure "TRUMP URGES UNITY VS. RACISM" is how I would have framed the story.

Here we have a classic example of where apologists for white nationalism can take out their dictionaries, do a word-for-word parsing, and claim the headline is accurate, even though anyone with basic reading compression skills can see how the headline is misleading.

I realize those who can't see Trump is a racist won't get it.

The NYT did change the headline, but I don't know whether it made the print edition:

ASSAILING HATE BUT NOT GUNS

It says something about the qualities of our current president that the best argument anyone has made in his defense is that he didn't know what he was talking about. -- Paul Krugman

Replies to this message:
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Thugpreacha
Member
Posts: 12676
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 550 of 610 (860375)
08-07-2019 10:15 AM
Reply to: Message 544 by Theodoric
08-05-2019 2:14 PM


Conservative Racism and White Privilege
Have you ever heard of the book, White Fragility: Why It's So Hard for White People to Talk About Racism.? I got it on my audible subscription recently and listened to the book. It is eye opening for people such as myself, but the author seems to make sense and has several salient points. It helps me to understand the social psychosis of white racism.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
~Stile


This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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Theodoric
Member
Posts: 6485
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.4


(3)
Message 551 of 610 (860380)
08-07-2019 10:54 AM
Reply to: Message 550 by Thugpreacha
08-07-2019 10:15 AM


Re: Conservative Racism and White Privilege
Great book. I suggest it to all my friends. Few are willing to read it. I applaud you.
This subject is weird but very close to me. I have 1 1/2 feet in the traditional white world and 1/2 a foot in the hispanic/latinx world. I also have a teenage african brother-in-law that lives in our household. Here in NW Wisconsin we see and hear racism all the time.

As the white supremacists get more and more riled up by this President and his supporters we live more and more in a state of concern and a fear of violence. I have a spanish last name. There are more and reports of families with spanish last names being targeted by white supremacist thugs.

We are starting to plan an exit strategy if things get worse. That means leaving the country. I cannot live in a place where my family is threatened. Our initial plan will be to head to Canada and probably Europe from there. As my wife is an MD we will be in a much better position to find asylum than many others. Yes, I as an US citizen am starting to make plans in case my family needs to seek asylum.

I know a few minority families that are also laying the groundwork to leave.

Edited by Theodoric, : No reason given.


Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up why would you have to lie?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 550 by Thugpreacha, posted 08-07-2019 10:15 AM Thugpreacha has acknowledged this reply

    
JonF
Member
Posts: 5286
Joined: 06-23-2003
Member Rating: 2.4


Message 552 of 610 (860385)
08-07-2019 11:15 AM
Reply to: Message 549 by Chiroptera
08-07-2019 10:08 AM


Re: Backlash against NYT headline
Shortly after calling for unity he attacked Democrats.
This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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Chiroptera
Member
Posts: 6761
From: Oklahoma
Joined: 09-28-2003
Member Rating: 5.4


Message 553 of 610 (860405)
08-07-2019 1:11 PM
Reply to: Message 552 by JonF
08-07-2019 11:15 AM


Re: Backlash against NYT headline
He seems to do that a lot. I typed "Trump calls for unity then attacks Democrats" into my search engine and got hits for several different instances.

It says something about the qualities of our current president that the best argument anyone has made in his defense is that he didn't know what he was talking about. -- Paul Krugman

This message is a reply to:
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AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 4380
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 3.2


Message 554 of 610 (860407)
08-07-2019 1:39 PM
Reply to: Message 552 by JonF
08-07-2019 11:15 AM


Re: Backlash against NYT headline
His call for unity was not serious. It was just something someone said might be popular for him to say given the circumstances. Once done he went on to his regular stream of consciousness rant.

Eschew obfuscation. Habituate elucidation.

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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Chiroptera
Member
Posts: 6761
From: Oklahoma
Joined: 09-28-2003
Member Rating: 5.4


(3)
Message 555 of 610 (860415)
08-07-2019 2:53 PM
Reply to: Message 554 by AZPaul3
08-07-2019 1:39 PM


Re: Backlash against NYT headline
In the entire history of white nationalism, "unity" has always meant, "agree with us or shut up."

It says something about the qualities of our current president that the best argument anyone has made in his defense is that he didn't know what he was talking about. -- Paul Krugman

This message is a reply to:
 Message 554 by AZPaul3, posted 08-07-2019 1:39 PM AZPaul3 has acknowledged this reply

  
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