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Author Topic:   Conservative Racism
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 6488
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.4


Message 601 of 610 (860923)
08-13-2019 12:46 PM
Reply to: Message 600 by Hyroglyphx
08-13-2019 10:25 AM


Re: Maybe you should address responses to assertions you have made
Actually as I have said before the Amnesty international makes no mention of race, culture or immigration status. None whatsoever.

You accuse me of poisoning the well and say I am making a racial thing out of it? Show me where I have done that. This is another strawman of yours.
Please show where the amnesty international report backs up your wild ass assertions.

The data represents a clear parallel between immigrants of Middle-Eastern and North African (MENA) descent and a rise in crime ranging from theft to sexual assaults that is disproportionate when compared to previous years of less immigration and when compared to native-born Scandinavians.

The Amnesty international report you presented as evidence sys no such thing. In fact it states that this is a long time problem in the Scandinavian countries with no reference at all to recent immigrants.

Again, we can view this from a racial perspective versus a cultural one.

Another strawman. Bringing up culture is not defense against racism. All cultures except the western European culture are brown and black. You try to sound all high and mighty by saying culture but you are reciting racist tropes because you lump all MENA immigrants into the same category and have yet to provide any evidence that they are the cause of a new rape problem in Sweden. All I want is evidence and facts. Tired of assertions.

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up why would you have to lie?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 600 by Hyroglyphx, posted 08-13-2019 10:25 AM Hyroglyphx has not yet responded

    
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 6488
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.4


Message 602 of 610 (860924)
08-13-2019 1:02 PM
Reply to: Message 600 by Hyroglyphx
08-13-2019 10:25 AM


Re: Maybe you should address responses to assertions you have made
I tell you what I address some of your strawman arguments. As they are not much better than your original claim about immigrants being responsible for a "rape wave" in Sweden.
Are you really going to pretend that these poor nations, clinging to traditional, Islamic social mores are integrating well into Western Civilization?

Your source does not support you. You should read the full article and it's conclusions before you assume, because of it's title, that it supports you.
quote:
This disproves the commonly held view in Western Europe/Norway that the rise in rape cases – or the rape wave – is primarily to be blamed on the MENA immigrant’s influx to Western societies.

You might want to at least read the full conclusions.
Here are some important parts.

quote:
First, there is the obvious cultural clash between sexual norms and gender roles between the predominantly patriarchal, conservative and Muslim regions, and the predominantly gender equal, liberal and secular Western Europe. Second, there is also an overwhelming feeling of society’s discrimination and exclusion of the MENA immigrant community in Norway. This holds true for several other Western European countries as well. Even those who were born and raised in Norway to immigrant parents, testified being subject to a significant extent of discrimination in multiple layers of the society, as seen in the examples of labor market experiences, access to welfare system benefits, and so forth...
If racism and discrimination is occurring, or any other kind of maltreatment towards an ethnic minority, it will often stir social tensions. Regardless if it is happening at the workplace, at a top-down level in society such as any kind of public platform, or at a bottom-up level such as mainstream’s stereotypes and notions, it could provoke increased crime rates. This could be particularly relevant for rape crimes, as these crimes are often judged to be crimes in which the assailant seeks to exercise power or control46 – a logical reaction to humiliation. Last, but not least, the media and political public discourse’s frequent use of anti-immigrant rhetoric has also contributed greatly to shaping society’s prejudice view on MENA immigrants.

The same thing is unsurprisingly happening in Nordic countries presently with an influx of MENA immigrants

This Journal article is 22 years old. Do you really think it is still relevant? What does it say? What are the claims the article makes abut islamic immigrants being responsible for an increase in rapes in Sweden? That is what we are discussing. Again you build another strawman argument. How about sticking to your original claim about immigrants being responsible for a "rape wave" in Sweden.

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up why would you have to lie?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 600 by Hyroglyphx, posted 08-13-2019 10:25 AM Hyroglyphx has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 605 by Hyroglyphx, posted 08-14-2019 2:46 PM Theodoric has responded

    
Chiroptera
Member
Posts: 6765
From: Oklahoma
Joined: 09-28-2003
Member Rating: 5.4


Message 603 of 610 (860958)
08-14-2019 1:36 PM


I don't think they even care anymore.
From The Guardian:

Fury as Trump ally says poem on Statue of Liberty refers to 'people from Europe'

Ken Cuccinelli, the acting director of US Citizenship and Immigration Services, has sparked a new wave of criticism about the promise of US immigration enshrined in the inscription on the Statue of Liberty by saying it was for "people coming from Europe".

It says something about the qualities of our current president that the best argument anyone has made in his defense is that he didn't know what he was talking about. -- Paul Krugman

Replies to this message:
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 Message 607 by LamarkNewAge, posted 08-14-2019 11:05 PM Chiroptera has acknowledged this reply

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 4394
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 3.2


Message 604 of 610 (860963)
08-14-2019 2:13 PM
Reply to: Message 603 by Chiroptera
08-14-2019 1:36 PM


Re: I don't think they even care anymore.
Yes, Trump hires only the very best racists.

Eschew obfuscation. Habituate elucidation.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 603 by Chiroptera, posted 08-14-2019 1:36 PM Chiroptera has not yet responded

  
Hyroglyphx
Member
Posts: 5787
From: Austin, TX
Joined: 05-03-2006
Member Rating: 1.8


Message 605 of 610 (860965)
08-14-2019 2:46 PM
Reply to: Message 602 by Theodoric
08-13-2019 1:02 PM


Re: Maybe you should address responses to assertions you have made
Your source does not support you. You should read the full article and it's conclusions before you assume, because of it's title, that it supports you.

Wrong, I read it from stem to stern. The paper was objective, as it should be. You're extracting the parts complimentary to your position. You even quote what I mentioned, that the MENA culture is dominated by patriarchal viewpoints. You later scorned me claiming that distinguishing between race and culture is basically impossible. Bullshit. The article even cites that other migrants from places like Asia or Sub-Sarhan African immigrants were not seeing disproportionate levels of criminality. That's because they're different cultures.

This disproves the commonly held view in Western Europe/Norway that the rise in rape cases – or the rape wave – is primarily to be blamed on the MENA immigrant’s influx to Western societies.
You might want to at least read the full conclusions.
Here are some important parts.

This Journal article is 22 years old.

Global Politics Review 3, no. 1, April 2017: 61-78

Top of the very first page.

What are the claims the article makes abut islamic immigrants being responsible for an increase in rapes in Sweden? That is what we are discussing. Again you build another strawman argument. How about sticking to your original claim about immigrants being responsible for a "rape wave" in Sweden.

I didn't say, Islam, I said MENA. Islam is a humongous religion that spans several continents and is also nuanced based on cultural differences. And I am sticking to the premise that rapes and even coordinated rape attacks have occurred in Norway, Sweden, Germany, etc, and that all indications point to young MENA immigrants. This isn't to say that all young MENA men are rapists. Its not to say that MENA people are bad. It is to say that when introducing a culture at the speed at which Scandinavian and other European countries have, that it does not allow for a quick assimilation process and often leads to subdivision within a community. Its also really stupid to pretend that concepts of women's rights are vastly different when comparing Norway to Yemen.


"Reason obeys itself; and ignorance submits to whatever is dictated to it" -- Thomas Paine

This message is a reply to:
 Message 602 by Theodoric, posted 08-13-2019 1:02 PM Theodoric has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 606 by Theodoric, posted 08-14-2019 5:23 PM Hyroglyphx has not yet responded

    
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 6488
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.4


(3)
Message 606 of 610 (860966)
08-14-2019 5:23 PM
Reply to: Message 605 by Hyroglyphx
08-14-2019 2:46 PM


Re: Maybe you should address responses to assertions you have made
Its also really stupid to pretend that concepts of women's rights are vastly different when comparing Norway to Yemen.

Another strawman? No on has made such a claim. But go you.

The 22 year old journal article is the other link your posted. You could tell I was talking about it because I quoted your link right above the comment you have quoted.

Journal Article
Immigrants, Crime, and Criminal Justice in Sweden
Peter L. Martens
Crime and Justice
Vol. 21, Ethnicity, Crime and Immigration: Comparative and Cross-National Perspectives (1997), pp. 183-255

From the header. Keep up.

Again I will reiterate. No article you have linked to supports your original contention that recent immigrants are responsible for a rape wave in Sweden. You are just engaging in a Gish Gallop right now. Since you can not support your original assertion then I guess I am done. I am tired of knocking down strawman after strawman.


Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up why would you have to lie?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 605 by Hyroglyphx, posted 08-14-2019 2:46 PM Hyroglyphx has not yet responded

    
LamarkNewAge
Member
Posts: 1520
Joined: 12-22-2015


Message 607 of 610 (860976)
08-14-2019 11:05 PM
Reply to: Message 603 by Chiroptera
08-14-2019 1:36 PM


I though anti-immigration conspiracy theorists knew about Lazarus?
quote:
Ken Cuccinelli, the acting director of US Citizenship and Immigration Services, has sparked a new wave of criticism about the promise of US immigration enshrined in the inscription on the Statue of Liberty by saying it was for "people coming from Europe".

Amazing, and not just because this guy was Italian (many folks from Italy, especially Semitic Sicily, were not seen as "white-European", but were allowed to immigrate during the "open border" times pre-1924).

This was quite a whopper.

quote:
Not like the brazen giant of Greek fame,
With conquering limbs astride from land to land;
Here at our sea-washed, sunset gates shall stand
A mighty woman with a torch, whose flame
Is the imprisoned lightning, and her name
Mother of Exiles. From her beacon-hand
Glows world-wide welcome; her mild eyes command
The air-bridged harbor that twin cities frame.

"Keep, ancient lands, your storied pomp!" cries she
With silent lips. "Give me your tired, your poor,
Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,
The wretched refuse of your teeming shore.
Send these, the homeless, tempest-tost to me,
I lift my lamp beside the golden door!"

....

The "huddled masses" refers to the large numbers of immigrants arriving in the United States in the 1880s.[14] Lazarus was an activist and advocate for Jewish refugees fleeing persecution in Czarist Russia. [15]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_New_Colossus


Lazarus would not have been seen as quite the European, herself.

quote:
Emma Lazarus was born in New York City, July 22, 1849,[5] into a large Sephardic Jewish family.[a] She was the fourth of seven children of Moses Lazarus, a wealthy Jewish merchant[7] and sugar refiner,[8] and Esther Nathan.[9] One of her great-grandfathers on the Lazarus side was from Germany;[10] the rest of her Lazarus and Nathan ancestors were originally from Portugal and resident in New York long before the American Revolution, being among the original twenty-three Portuguese Jews who arrived in New Amsterdam fleeing the Inquisition from their settlement of Recife, Brazil.[11][8] Lazarus's great-great-grandmother on her mother's side, Grace Seixas Nathan (born in New York in 1752) was also a poet.[12] Lazarus was related through her mother to Benjamin N. Cardozo, Associate Justice of the Supreme Court of the United States. Her siblings included sisters Josephine, Sarah, Mary, Emma, Agnes and Annie, and a brother, Frank.[13][14][15]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emma_Lazarus


The fact that everybody TODAY considers Italians (even from Sicily) & others - like Jewish folks -, with partial middle-eastern ancestry, as European, might not be the best support for saying the Statue of Liberty's poem was for "Europeans only".

It is true that there was a severe crackdown against non-white migrants just before the statue was erected.

But it was not just people from the continent of Europe that enjoyed the "open borders" rights. Sicilians were allowed to immigrate here like "Europeans". I know that for a fact. It was not all about the continent of Europe.

Edited by LamarkNewAge, : No reason given.

Edited by LamarkNewAge, : No reason given.

Edited by LamarkNewAge, : No reason given.

Edited by LamarkNewAge, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 603 by Chiroptera, posted 08-14-2019 1:36 PM Chiroptera has acknowledged this reply

Replies to this message:
 Message 608 by JonF, posted 08-15-2019 8:30 AM LamarkNewAge has responded

    
JonF
Member
Posts: 5322
Joined: 06-23-2003
Member Rating: 2.4


(1)
Message 608 of 610 (860986)
08-15-2019 8:30 AM
Reply to: Message 607 by LamarkNewAge
08-14-2019 11:05 PM


Re: I though anti-immigration conspiracy theorists knew about Lazarus?
Make America white again.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 607 by LamarkNewAge, posted 08-14-2019 11:05 PM LamarkNewAge has responded

Replies to this message:
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Theodoric
Member
Posts: 6488
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.4


Message 609 of 610 (861062)
08-16-2019 2:13 PM


The propaganda arm of the far right
More evidence that Sinclair Broadcasting is a propaganda arm of the right wing.

Sinclair gives Trump official 'must-run' airtime to mislead on Trump immigration policy

quote:
Sinclair Broadcast Group kept up its quest to be Fox News, Only More So this week with an interview giving U.S. Citizenship and Immigration Services acting director Ken Cuccinelli the chance to explain how wonderful and humane Trump administration immigration policy is. The interview, in one of Sinclair’s loathed “must-run” segments featuring former Trump staffer and Sinclair messaging thug Boris Epshteyn, is framed by Epshteyn as a response to the recent ICE raids in Mississippi, though Cuccinelli says not a word about them in what aired.

More on this softball interview.
https://www.mediamatters.org/...-cuccinelli-defend-ice-raids

Edited by Theodoric, : No reason given.


Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up why would you have to lie?


    
LamarkNewAge
Member
Posts: 1520
Joined: 12-22-2015


Message 610 of 610 (861099)
08-17-2019 12:58 AM
Reply to: Message 608 by JonF
08-15-2019 8:30 AM


Anti-immigration EUROPEAN ONLY folks & Lazarus (L.A. Times
There is no comment on the part about people only being European.

The piece forgets to mention that her ancestors came from Brazil (and there is an quite an immigration story to how they got to Brazil in the first place)

First the L.A. Times piece.

quote:
OPINION

Editorial: Cuccinelli is wrong: ‘Poor, huddled masses’ are an inextricable part of our history

By THE TIMES EDITORIAL BOARD
AUG. 16, 2019 3 AM

Now the Trump administration is trying to rewrite history — and poetry.

In an interview with National Public Radio this week, Ken Cuccinelli, acting director of the U.S. Citizenship and Immigration Services, said that the storied lines on the Statue of Liberty urging the world to “give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free” was an invitation to only those immigrants “who can stand on their own two feet and who will not become a public charge.”

Um, no. In fact, the “huddled masses” line is part of a 14-line sonnet, “The New Colossus,” that Emma Lazarus — considered the nation’s first important Jewish poet — wrote in 1883 for the pedestal upon which the Statue of Liberty would eventually stand. The poem was written a year after the first Chinese Exclusion Act and the Immigration Act of 1882, the first significant efforts to limit immigration into the United States. Yes, the latter required new arrivals to show they had the means to survive in what then was a nation without safety nets, a rule that has remained on the books ever since.

Yet Lazarus’ poem doesn’t mention exclusions and financial requirements. Rather, she specifically refers to embracing “the wretched refuse of your teeming shore” and “the homeless, tempest-tost.” Her poem says clearly and eloquently that the land of liberty should welcome immigrants from the lower economic classes — the “poor, huddled masses” — and not just those carrying purses full of gold. Lazarus, incidentally, was born in the United States but was descended from Portugese Sephardic Jews, and she was involved in helping Russian Jews settle in New York after fleeing pogroms — the very sort of displaced peoples the current White House has worked so assiduously to turn away.

https://www.latimes.com/...masses-our-history-statue-liberty


There is more in the piece.

But no mention of Brazilian ancestors.

But look at why they were in Brazil.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Converso

quote:
Over half of Spain's Jewish origin population had converted to Catholicism as a result of the religious anti-Jewish persecution and pogroms which occurred in 1391. As a result of the Alhambra decree and persecution in prior years, it is estimated that of Spain's total Jewish origin population at the time, over 200,000 Jews converted to Catholicism, and initially remained in Spain. Between 40,000 and 80,000 did not convert to Catholicism, and by their steadfast commitment to remain Jewish were thus expelled. Of those who were expelled as unconverted Jews, an indeterminate number nonetheless converted to Catholicism once outside Spain and eventually returned to Spain in the years following the expulsion[2] due to the hardships many experienced in their resettlement. Many of Spain's Jews who left Spain as Jews also initially moved to Portugal, where they were subsequently forcibly converted to the Catholic Church in 1497.

Most of the Jews who left Spain as Jews accepted the hospitality of Sultan Bayezid II and, after the Alhambra Decree, moved to the Ottoman Empire,[3] where they founded communities openly practising the Jewish religion; they and their descendants are known as Eastern Sephardim.

During the centuries following[4] the Spanish and Portuguese decrees, some of the Jewish-origin New Christian conversos started emigrating from Portugal and Spain, settling until the 1700s throughout areas of Western Europe and non-Iberian realms of the colonial Americas (mostly Dutch realms, including Curaçao in the Dutch West Indies, Recife in Dutch areas of colonial Brazil which eventually were regained by the Portuguese, and New Amsterdam which later became New York) forming communities and formally reverting to Judaism. It is the collective of these communities and their descendants who are known as Western Sephardim, and are the subject of this article.

As the early members of the Western Sephardim consisted of persons who themselves (or whose immediate forebears) personally experienced an interim period as New Christians, which resulted in unceasing trials and persecutions of crypto-Judaism by the Portuguese and Spanish Inquisitions, the early community continued to be augmented by further New Christian emigration pouring out of the Iberian Peninsula in a continuous flow between the 1600s to 1700s. Jewish-origin New Christians were officially considered Christians due to their forced or coerced conversions; as such they were subject to the jurisdiction of the Catholic Church's Inquisitorial system, and were subject to harsh heresy and apostasy laws if they continued to practice their ancestral Jewish faith. Those New Christians who eventually fled both the Iberian cultural sphere and jurisdiction of the Inquisition were able to officially return to Judaism and open Jewish practice once they were in their new tolerant environments of refuge.

As former conversos or their descendants, Western Sephardim developed a distinctive ritual based on the remnants of the Judaism of pre-expulsion Spain, which some had practiced in secrecy during their time as New Christians, and influenced by Judaism as practiced by the communities (including Sephardic Jews of the Ottoman Empire and Ashkenazi Jews) which assisted them in their readoption of normative Judaism; as well as by the Spanish-Moroccan and the Italian Jewish rites practiced by rabbis and hazzanim recruited from those communities to instruct them in ritual practice. A part of their distinctiveness as a Jewish group, furthermore, stems from the fact that they saw themselves as forced to "redefine their Jewish identity and mark its boundaries [...] with the intellectual tools they had acquired in their Christian socialization"[5] during their time as New Christian conversos.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spanish_and_Portuguese_Jews


Lazarus was from a Western Sephardim family.

That is why they were in the place they were when in Brazil.

This family would be considered "Hispanic" today, especially if they remained in their "Christian" state.


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