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Author Topic:   Conservative Racism
jar
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Posts: 31453
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 3.0


(1)
Message 901 of 919 (863102)
09-20-2019 8:00 AM
Reply to: Message 899 by Faith
09-20-2019 6:15 AM


Re: Obama's birthplace
Faith writes:

But you won't see ONE faint letter between well inked letters.

Of course you would and in fact that is exactly what you should see. The ribbons were fabric, often two colored and designed so that you could reuse them. If the strike happened to land on a place that had already been used then you would get a light letter while the next would most likely be dark.


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 899 by Faith, posted 09-20-2019 6:15 AM Faith has not yet responded

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 6654
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 4.2


Message 902 of 919 (863103)
09-20-2019 8:29 AM
Reply to: Message 897 by Faith
09-20-2019 5:44 AM


You know nothing about typewriters
So you lied that you had a copy of the birth certificate. It was a youtube video?
I highly doubt this video was of an official birth certificate, but even if it is your arguments are not supported.. Your ramblings are meaningless unless you provide evidence. Did you not post a link to the youtube video because it is ridiculous?

If the birth certificate in question is from early 60's, you would see those issues you are talking about. Manual typewriters did all of the things you are talking about. A good forensic detective would not look at the things you point out, but would look to see if all the individual letters were made by the same typebar. This is actually quite easy to determine. The other thing they would examine is if the ink was the same throughout.

if one is high all should be high

Incorrect. The shift key was used to raise the platen so the uppercase letter was imprinted on the paper from the typebar. Depending on the typist this could cause the upper or lower case letter to look high on the line. When I was in college, my roommate still used a manual typewriter and this happened all the time
if one is faded looking because it didn't strike hard enough every use of that letter should look like that.

Incorrect. The amount of ink transferred during typing with a manual typewriter as totally dependent upon the pressure exerted on the key by the typist. Letters pushed by the smaller fingers were most notorious for not being as heavily inked, but this could and did happen with all letters. Also, ink ribbons did not fade or dry uniformly. Therefore in some spots the ink would not transfer as well.

This is a prime example of a rightwinger attempting to discuss a subject that they have no knowledge of.

Present the birth certificate in question.

Edited by Theodoric, : No reason given.


Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up why would you have to lie?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 897 by Faith, posted 09-20-2019 5:44 AM Faith has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 905 by PaulK, posted 09-20-2019 9:54 AM Theodoric has responded

    
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 6654
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 4.2


Message 903 of 919 (863104)
09-20-2019 8:31 AM
Reply to: Message 899 by Faith
09-20-2019 6:15 AM


Lack of typewriter knowledge is showing
Yes you will. Either from a lack of pressure to key when struck or a faded and/or dry part of the ribbon.

Wrong again.

Edited by Theodoric, : subtitle change


Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up why would you have to lie?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 899 by Faith, posted 09-20-2019 6:15 AM Faith has not yet responded

    
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 6654
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 4.2


Message 904 of 919 (863105)
09-20-2019 8:37 AM
Reply to: Message 900 by PaulK
09-20-2019 6:17 AM


Re: Obama's birthplace
And I don’t see why the region of low ink couldn’t be narrow enough for a single character.

You are correct.
Typewriter ribbons did not always dry out uniformly. It was very common to have spots on the ribbon that held less ink then spots right next to them. The technology of a manual typewriter ribbon is not that advanced

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up why would you have to lie?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 900 by PaulK, posted 09-20-2019 6:17 AM PaulK has not yet responded

    
PaulK
Member
Posts: 15439
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.9


(1)
Message 905 of 919 (863108)
09-20-2019 9:54 AM
Reply to: Message 902 by Theodoric
09-20-2019 8:29 AM


Re: You know nothing about typewriters
We have a,ready seen the certificate inMessage 740

I’ve eyeballed it and the variations look like those you’d expect from a manual ribbon typewriter and not two distinct machines (or typists). For the latter you’d ideally want a difference in the typeface or at least consistent differences between supposedly genuine and supposedly forged parts. And I don’t see either.

For instance the ‘O’ in the first instance of “Oahu” is raised and faint. In the second instance it is less raised and isn’t faint. The raising looks like the typists hand to me, they aren’t getting the shift quite right for the ‘O”. The faintness could be the strike or the ribbon, i can’t tell. Both instances should be genuine, so it’s further evidence that the variations are normal.

The “O” in “OBAMA” isn’t raised. However, the raising is due to the shift key, and since the name is all-caps it’s likely that the shift lock would be used, and that would get it right. There are other raised capitals, but none in the names, just as we’d expect if that were the case.

So another piece of “evidence” collapses.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 902 by Theodoric, posted 09-20-2019 8:29 AM Theodoric has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 907 by Theodoric, posted 09-20-2019 11:06 AM PaulK has not yet responded

    
Faith
Member
Posts: 33255
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 906 of 919 (863109)
09-20-2019 10:51 AM


So you've satisfied yourselves that you got it right and I got it wrong no matter what I say, and of course Theodoric got everything I said wrong, but no matter, he must be right anyway. Hooray for you. As I said I've dropped this subject. Have a nice day.

Replies to this message:
 Message 909 by PaulK, posted 09-20-2019 11:11 AM Faith has not yet responded
 Message 912 by PaulK, posted 09-21-2019 4:34 AM Faith has responded

    
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 6654
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 4.2


(1)
Message 907 of 919 (863111)
09-20-2019 11:06 AM
Reply to: Message 905 by PaulK
09-20-2019 9:54 AM


Re: You know nothing about typewriters
Oh I had forgotten about the original certificate of live birth, which in fact is different than a Birth Certificate. Legally this certificate has no legal bearing. You would think the nutbags would accept this over a computer generated form as this was filled out at time of birth and put into official government records. But now a computer generated form is the actual legal Birth Certificate.

Official birth certificate.
https://obamawhitehouse.archives.gov/...irth-certificate.pdf

No one ever gets a print out of the scan of the certificate of live birth. If you asked the clerk of courts from where you were born they would laugh at you. The state of Hawai'i made an exception to this because of the hullabaloo from the idiots.

Edited by Theodoric, : No reason given.

Edited by Theodoric, : image file


Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up why would you have to lie?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 905 by PaulK, posted 09-20-2019 9:54 AM PaulK has not yet responded

    
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 6654
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 4.2


Message 908 of 919 (863112)
09-20-2019 11:07 AM
Reply to: Message 897 by Faith
09-20-2019 5:44 AM


Re: Obama's birthplace
How about you post your "long form" certificate of live birth so we can see if it is fraudulent?

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up why would you have to lie?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 897 by Faith, posted 09-20-2019 5:44 AM Faith has not yet responded

    
PaulK
Member
Posts: 15439
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.9


Message 909 of 919 (863113)
09-20-2019 11:11 AM
Reply to: Message 906 by Faith
09-20-2019 10:51 AM


quote:
So you've satisfied yourselves that you got it right and I got it wrong no matter what I say,

Of course it does matter what you say. The fact that what you said was obviously wrong despite its vagueness is the reason why I rejected your claims.

quote:
and of course Theodoric got everything I said wrong, but no matter, he must be right anyway.

Considering only his comments about typewriters, his observations are in line with my own experience - and since I’ve offered analysis in support of ny views - which is more than you’ve even tried it seems rather clear that you’re wrong.

quote:
As I said I've dropped this subject.

Except that you didn’t. And if you had any confidence in your evidence of forgery you wouldn’t be running away now.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 906 by Faith, posted 09-20-2019 10:51 AM Faith has not yet responded

    
Taq
Member
Posts: 8081
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 4.1


Message 910 of 919 (863118)
09-20-2019 11:36 AM
Reply to: Message 897 by Faith
09-20-2019 5:44 AM


Re: Obama's birthplace
Faith writes:

Looked up the subject on You Tube and found some discussions from a few years ago, one of them showing the certificate on a screen and going into great detail about various numbers on it. I was only going to post on a few letters that don't seem to fit what an old typewriter would do: that is, the same letter should appear the same wherever it occurs in the text: if one is high all should be high, if one is faded looking because it didn't strike hard enough every use of that letter should look like that. But I see that there are many other issues that can be raised about the birth certificate and I'm not up to spending time on it so I'm going to drop the subject for now.
Cheers.

Nowhere in there did you even attempt to address what I was asking. Here it is again:

So how do you explain all this sturm und drang in conservative circles over Obama's birthplace?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 897 by Faith, posted 09-20-2019 5:44 AM Faith has not yet responded

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 6654
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 4.2


Message 911 of 919 (863120)
09-20-2019 11:46 AM


I am looking at my Certificate of Birth. It is from the Beverly, MA. I have two copies so I can compare them. The first is from 1982, 20 years after my birth and obviously typed. At that time it would have been an electric typewriter, but it still has some issues. I guess I was not actually born there.
The capital B looks different through out. There are four capital B's. Two show a lack of ink on the top loop. One is much more pronounced than the other.

On the place of birth line it states

quote:
Beverly Hospital, Beverly, Mass.

The second Beverly on that line has the "l" almost on top of the "r" then an open space and then the "y".

For my parents places of birth, Puerto Rico is spelled out for my father, but Mass. is what is entered for my mother. Why would they abbreviate one but not the other. Forgery alert.

The form uses upper and lower case letters. As I would be quite surprised manual typewriter was used at this time, my certificate shows that electric typewriters could also leave a capital letter above the line. There are three instance in my birth certificate where the capital letter is above the rest of the letters. Most evident is the B in my first name.

The 1991 Certificate of Birth has a slight change of format. In 1982 there are 11 numbered lines of data, the 1991 form has 12 lines of data, adding Occupation of Mother. The 1991 form is obviously printed by a computer as it is in all caps and all the letters are uniform in appearance.

Both have a rubber stamp signature of the city clerk and the seal of the city embossed. The seal can still be detected on the 1982 copy.

Both of these are considered original birth certificates. If I asked for one now I would get one similar to what President Obama originally released. I would never be able to get my original certificate of live birth(what nutbag birthers refer to as a long form) which is what is originally entered into the city records. That is the original record they use to produce birth certificates.

So Faith is my birth certificate fraudulent?


Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up why would you have to lie?


    
PaulK
Member
Posts: 15439
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.9


(1)
Message 912 of 919 (863141)
09-21-2019 4:34 AM
Reply to: Message 906 by Faith
09-20-2019 10:51 AM


Since you claim that it doesn’t matter what you say, i’m going to prove you wrong.

In Message 891 you claimed:

Three letters that should be identical throughout the form aren't, which is hard to explain based on the way the old manual typewriters worked

(Note that you agree that it is a manual typewriter)

In Message 897 you expand in that:

I was only going to post on a few letters that don't seem to fit what an old typewriter would do: that is, the same letter should appear the same wherever it occurs in the text: if one is high all should be high, if one is faded looking because it didn't strike hard enough every use of that letter should look like that

So let us look at the document again. Can we make sense of these variations assuming two typewriters - one for the genuine parts, one for the forgery ? Or does it make more sense to attribute it to the known variations associated with the use of a manual ribbon typewriter ?

The high letters are the “O” in “Oahu” - twice. The “A” in Africa, and the “K” in “Kansas”.

The “K” is especially interesting because it is particularly high and the top is cut off. There are 5 other “K”s and none of them is raised.

In fact there is no real consistency - even the “O” in “Oahu” is at different heights in the two examples.

This really doesn’t fit the forgery hypothesis well. There is no way that “Kansas” is going to be the only forged or the only genuine word containing “K”. “Africa” is not much better, and even the variations in “Oahu” are a problem.

On the other hand, every one is an initial capital - they all appear where the shift key would be used, and none appear where the shift lock would be used instead. The evidence perfectly fits with the alternative explanation that the operator sometimes didn’t got the shift key in quite the right position - which is known to happen with manual typewriters.

As for faint letters, there are odd singletons like the “a” in “African” and the “i” in “University” - but there are enough other examples to show that there is no consistency. The top bar of the “E” in the first “HUSSEIN” is weak, but not in the second, or in “East”. Again, the forgery hypothesis fails.

It is clear that the consistency required by the forgery hypothesis is utterly lacking. Any serious analysis would have seen that. There is no evidence here of anything wrong at all.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 906 by Faith, posted 09-20-2019 10:51 AM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 913 by Faith, posted 09-21-2019 5:00 AM PaulK has not yet responded

    
Faith
Member
Posts: 33255
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.2


(1)
Message 913 of 919 (863142)
09-21-2019 5:00 AM
Reply to: Message 912 by PaulK
09-21-2019 4:34 AM


I didn't think it fit the forgery explanation either. There are other arguments for it, however, but I'm not going to explore them. I'll just concede the point and agree that he was not born in Kenya but in Hawaii.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 912 by PaulK, posted 09-21-2019 4:34 AM PaulK has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 914 by Theodoric, posted 09-21-2019 1:58 PM Faith has responded

    
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 6654
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 4.2


Message 914 of 919 (863155)
09-21-2019 1:58 PM
Reply to: Message 913 by Faith
09-21-2019 5:00 AM


I didn't think it fit the forgery explanation either.

Bullshit. You have been saying that all along. If you are a birther you have to think this is a forgery. If you do not think it is a forgery than you must admit he was born in Hawai'i.

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up why would you have to lie?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 913 by Faith, posted 09-21-2019 5:00 AM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 915 by Faith, posted 09-21-2019 2:03 PM Theodoric has responded

    
Faith
Member
Posts: 33255
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 915 of 919 (863157)
09-21-2019 2:03 PM
Reply to: Message 914 by Theodoric
09-21-2019 1:58 PM


Yes I've thought it was a forgery, but when I saw it on my blog with the discussion of the errors I didn't think it could be explained as a forgery. I thought maybe if I spent more time on it I'd see the reasoning for that but I didn't really spend the time on it and I don't see the reasoning for it now. I still have my doubts of course, but I'm not going to put in the time to check them out and it doesn't look like a forgery to me so I'm being quite honest to concede the point.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 914 by Theodoric, posted 09-21-2019 1:58 PM Theodoric has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 916 by Theodoric, posted 09-21-2019 2:18 PM Faith has responded

    
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