Understanding through Discussion


Welcome! You are not logged in. [ Login ]
EvC Forum active members: 86 (8998 total)
70 online now:
dwise1, Hyroglyphx, PaulK, Pollux (4 members, 66 visitors)
Newest Member: Juvenissun
Post Volume: Total: 879,510 Year: 11,258/23,288 Month: 510/1,763 Week: 149/328 Day: 64/22 Hour: 0/2

Announcements: Topic abandonment warning (read and/or suffer the consequences)


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   A test for claimed knowledge of how macroevolution occurs
Tanypteryx
Member
Posts: 2380
From: Oregon, USA
Joined: 08-27-2006
Member Rating: 3.3


(1)
Message 7 of 785 (854647)
06-11-2019 10:53 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Dredge
06-11-2019 2:51 AM


Dredge writes:

I often hear evolutionists claim they "know how macroevolution occurs". If their claim is valid, then they should have no trouble explaining how, for example, the evolutionary ancestors of whales - ie, a rodent-like creature - could (hypothetically) be bred by humans to produce a whale (given unlimited time).

Breeding is not a surrogate for evolution.

This is as stupid as you using electricity so you should easily be able to design a nuclear power plant.

Macroevolution is the exact same process as evolution.

Macroevolution is the exact same process as evolution.

Macroevolution is the exact same process as evolution.

Macroevolution is the exact same process as evolution.

Macroevolution is the exact same process as evolution.

Macroevolution is the exact same process as evolution.

Macroevolution is the exact same process as evolution.


What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python

One important characteristic of a theory is that is has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie

If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --percy

The reason that we have the scientific method is because common sense isn't reliable. -- Taq


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Dredge, posted 06-11-2019 2:51 AM Dredge has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 33 by Dredge, posted 06-12-2019 2:43 AM Tanypteryx has responded

  
Tanypteryx
Member
Posts: 2380
From: Oregon, USA
Joined: 08-27-2006
Member Rating: 3.3


(1)
Message 25 of 785 (854693)
06-11-2019 6:34 PM
Reply to: Message 11 by Faith
06-11-2019 1:31 PM


Faith writes:

Mutations occur willynilly here and there, and the ones that occur in the reproductive cells are particularly rare.

Rare on whose scale?

The mutations that occur in the reproductive cells are the only mutations that we are talking about. They are the only ones involved with evolution.

Faith writes:

Most mutations are not going to do anything more than add to the usual variations built into the genome of the species.

Yes, they add to the variation that is already in the genome, creating a new allele.

Faith writes:

You need mutations that do something entirely different, change the genome in some brand new direction.

Nope, this is incorrect. We don't need anything, but what we do get is incremental changes (mutations) in the genome and phenotype that survive in succeeding generations. Some genome/phenotypes in a population will produce fewer or no offspring and will be eliminated by natural selection.

Mutations are random, but natural selection is not because it selects the best reproducers.

Faith writes:

How often is that going to happen? And then it has to get selected. This whole scenario is wackily impossible.

Well, that's because you have the scenario wrong.

Faith writes:

Why can't you at least THINK about how any such random event could ever in a million years get selected toward some organized new phenotype?

Mainly because such a random event is not how it happens.

Faith writes:

A mutation here, a mutation there, these have to have some kind of coherent pattern and that pattern has to be selected piecemeal over huge amounts of time.

This is incorrect. It is not a mutation here and a mutation there. If we use humans as an example, there are on average 100 mutations in every individual in a population. If we take the population of reproducers as 1 billion people, they have a combined 100 BILLION NEW MUTATIONS in just their generation of our population. If you take the whole human population there are 750 BILLION NEW MUTATIONS right now.

In just 1 million years that is a humongous number of mutations in a population. Now I realize that a population size will always fluctuate but to pretend that there are just a few mutations here or there is delusional.

Faith writes:

The probabilities involved are beyond the organizing powers of billions of years, let alone millions.

Really? We would love to see you calculate that.

And what are the organizing powers of billions of years. This is a concept I am completely unfamiliar with.


What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python

One important characteristic of a theory is that is has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie

If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --percy

The reason that we have the scientific method is because common sense isn't reliable. -- Taq


This message is a reply to:
 Message 11 by Faith, posted 06-11-2019 1:31 PM Faith has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 84 by Dredge, posted 06-13-2019 12:59 AM Tanypteryx has responded

  
Tanypteryx
Member
Posts: 2380
From: Oregon, USA
Joined: 08-27-2006
Member Rating: 3.3


Message 47 of 785 (854743)
06-12-2019 10:26 AM
Reply to: Message 33 by Dredge
06-12-2019 2:43 AM


Dredge writes:

Tanypteryx writes:

Breeding is not a surrogate for evolution.


The only difference between breeding and macroevolution is the former is determined by artificial selection and the latter is determined by natural selection.

This is your problem right here. This is total bullshit.

Dredge writes:

If you "know how macroevolution occurs" you would know how to breed a whale from its alleged evolutionary ancestor - a rodent-like creature.

More bullshit. The evidence shows you are never going to get it.

Breeding is not a surrogate for evolution.


What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python

One important characteristic of a theory is that is has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie

If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --percy

The reason that we have the scientific method is because common sense isn't reliable. -- Taq


This message is a reply to:
 Message 33 by Dredge, posted 06-12-2019 2:43 AM Dredge has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 89 by Dredge, posted 06-13-2019 1:38 AM Tanypteryx has responded
 Message 155 by Dredge, posted 06-14-2019 2:22 AM Tanypteryx has not yet responded

  
Tanypteryx
Member
Posts: 2380
From: Oregon, USA
Joined: 08-27-2006
Member Rating: 3.3


Message 86 of 785 (854812)
06-13-2019 1:08 AM
Reply to: Message 84 by Dredge
06-13-2019 12:59 AM


Dredge writes:

Tanypteryx writes:

This is incorrect. It is not a mutation here and a mutation there. If we use humans as an example, there are on average 100 mutations in every individual in a population. If we take the population of reproducers as 1 billion people, they have a combined 100 BILLION NEW MUTATIONS in just their generation of our population. If you take the whole human population there are 750 BILLION NEW MUTATIONS right now.


Yet humans remain humans … and dogs remain dogs, water rats remain water rats, E. coli remain E. coli ... funny that.

And humans remain mammals and humans remain vertebrates. What's your point?


What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python

One important characteristic of a theory is that is has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie

If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --percy

The reason that we have the scientific method is because common sense isn't reliable. -- Taq


This message is a reply to:
 Message 84 by Dredge, posted 06-13-2019 12:59 AM Dredge has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 90 by Dredge, posted 06-13-2019 1:54 AM Tanypteryx has responded

  
Tanypteryx
Member
Posts: 2380
From: Oregon, USA
Joined: 08-27-2006
Member Rating: 3.3


Message 98 of 785 (854828)
06-13-2019 10:50 AM
Reply to: Message 89 by Dredge
06-13-2019 1:38 AM


Breeding is not a surrogate for evolution.

What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python

One important characteristic of a theory is that is has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie

If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --percy

The reason that we have the scientific method is because common sense isn't reliable. -- Taq


This message is a reply to:
 Message 89 by Dredge, posted 06-13-2019 1:38 AM Dredge has not yet responded

  
Tanypteryx
Member
Posts: 2380
From: Oregon, USA
Joined: 08-27-2006
Member Rating: 3.3


Message 99 of 785 (854829)
06-13-2019 10:51 AM
Reply to: Message 90 by Dredge
06-13-2019 1:54 AM


Breeding is not a surrogate for evolution.

What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python

One important characteristic of a theory is that is has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie

If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --percy

The reason that we have the scientific method is because common sense isn't reliable. -- Taq


This message is a reply to:
 Message 90 by Dredge, posted 06-13-2019 1:54 AM Dredge has not yet responded

  
Tanypteryx
Member
Posts: 2380
From: Oregon, USA
Joined: 08-27-2006
Member Rating: 3.3


Message 146 of 785 (854906)
06-13-2019 9:43 PM
Reply to: Message 144 by AZPaul3
06-13-2019 9:19 PM


Re: Tracking the route of macroevolution
So close...I thought she was going to get it, but then the noise spiked.

What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python

One important characteristic of a theory is that is has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie

If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --percy

The reason that we have the scientific method is because common sense isn't reliable. -- Taq


This message is a reply to:
 Message 144 by AZPaul3, posted 06-13-2019 9:19 PM AZPaul3 has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 148 by AZPaul3, posted 06-13-2019 10:10 PM Tanypteryx has not yet responded

  
Tanypteryx
Member
Posts: 2380
From: Oregon, USA
Joined: 08-27-2006
Member Rating: 3.3


Message 192 of 785 (855041)
06-15-2019 7:33 PM
Reply to: Message 190 by AZPaul3
06-15-2019 6:30 PM


Re: Tracking the route of macroevolution
AZPaul3 writes:

You all keep talking about how we all have many mutations but aren't most of them in the body where they won't be passed on anyway?

We’re talking only mutations in germline cells not somatic cells. Germline cells have some of the most wonder ways of leaving the body taking their mutations with them.

I pointed this out to her clear back in Message 25

Tanypteryx writes:

Faith writes:

Mutations occur willynilly here and there, and the ones that occur in the reproductive cells are particularly rare.


Rare on whose scale?

The mutations that occur in the reproductive cells are the only mutations that we are talking about. They are the only ones involved with evolution.


What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python

One important characteristic of a theory is that is has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie

If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --percy

The reason that we have the scientific method is because common sense isn't reliable. -- Taq


This message is a reply to:
 Message 190 by AZPaul3, posted 06-15-2019 6:30 PM AZPaul3 has acknowledged this reply

Replies to this message:
 Message 193 by Faith, posted 06-15-2019 7:36 PM Tanypteryx has not yet responded

  
Tanypteryx
Member
Posts: 2380
From: Oregon, USA
Joined: 08-27-2006
Member Rating: 3.3


(1)
Message 238 of 785 (855119)
06-16-2019 3:05 PM
Reply to: Message 234 by Faith
06-16-2019 2:47 PM


Re: Tracking the route of macroevolution
Faith writes:

Not that it could be something other than a mutation but it doesn't fit the usual idea of a mutation and yet you are all just accepting it anyway.

How would we know what "your usual idea of a mutation" is? Half the time you insist that mutations do not even exist. And why would we pay any attention to what "your usual idea of a mutation" is, when we have data from scientists who study and understand genetics and biology and evolution.

In the papers I have read about it, it fits my idea of mutation perfectly.

Until your fantasy scenario actually describes and explains what is actually seen in the genetics of various organisms no one is going to pay any attention to it.


What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python

One important characteristic of a theory is that is has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie

If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --percy

The reason that we have the scientific method is because common sense isn't reliable. -- Taq


This message is a reply to:
 Message 234 by Faith, posted 06-16-2019 2:47 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 241 by Faith, posted 06-16-2019 3:09 PM Tanypteryx has not yet responded

  
Tanypteryx
Member
Posts: 2380
From: Oregon, USA
Joined: 08-27-2006
Member Rating: 3.3


Message 318 of 785 (855256)
06-18-2019 12:31 AM
Reply to: Message 199 by edge
06-15-2019 11:54 PM


Re: Tracking the route of macroevolution
I honestly admire your equanimity here along with your knowledge base, but I think that most of us have given up on a rational discussion in the face of hard-core denial.

Yep, you called it. It's not that funny any more. Pointless.


What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python

One important characteristic of a theory is that is has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie

If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --percy

The reason that we have the scientific method is because common sense isn't reliable. -- Taq


This message is a reply to:
 Message 199 by edge, posted 06-15-2019 11:54 PM edge has not yet responded

  
Tanypteryx
Member
Posts: 2380
From: Oregon, USA
Joined: 08-27-2006
Member Rating: 3.3


(3)
Message 333 of 785 (855286)
06-18-2019 11:29 AM
Reply to: Message 331 by Taq
06-18-2019 11:13 AM


Re: My model: It's way different from evolution
No, it isn't. Your model doesn't explain the pattern of differences between the genomes of species where transitions outnumber transversions and differences at CpG sites has the greatest number of differences relative to available bases. Your model also doesn't explain why we see more differences in introns than in exons when comparing genomes from many species. Your model also doesn't explain why we see a nested hierarchy.

Your model can't explain the observations we see, so it isn't coherent.

Another big one is she cannot explain the pattern of endogenous retroviral (ERV) insertions seen in genomes of most organisms that also matches the nested hierarchy.


What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python

One important characteristic of a theory is that is has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie

If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --percy

The reason that we have the scientific method is because common sense isn't reliable. -- Taq


This message is a reply to:
 Message 331 by Taq, posted 06-18-2019 11:13 AM Taq has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 335 by Faith, posted 06-18-2019 1:56 PM Tanypteryx has responded

  
Tanypteryx
Member
Posts: 2380
From: Oregon, USA
Joined: 08-27-2006
Member Rating: 3.3


(2)
Message 336 of 785 (855296)
06-18-2019 1:58 PM
Reply to: Message 335 by Faith
06-18-2019 1:56 PM


Great answer!

What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python

One important characteristic of a theory is that is has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie

If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --percy

The reason that we have the scientific method is because common sense isn't reliable. -- Taq


This message is a reply to:
 Message 335 by Faith, posted 06-18-2019 1:56 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 337 by Admin, posted 06-18-2019 4:19 PM Tanypteryx has acknowledged this reply
 Message 338 by Faith, posted 06-18-2019 4:56 PM Tanypteryx has not yet responded

  
Tanypteryx
Member
Posts: 2380
From: Oregon, USA
Joined: 08-27-2006
Member Rating: 3.3


Message 553 of 785 (856242)
06-28-2019 7:58 PM
Reply to: Message 551 by Faith
06-28-2019 7:07 PM


Re: The genetic loss idée fixe vs reality
No population is *perfectly* homogeneous but the wildebeests are pretty homogeneous, both the black herd and the blue herd; also buffalo; black bears are pretty homogeneous, also polar bears, grizzly bears etc.; kangaroos are pretty homogeneous, so are the Pod Mrcaru lizards, also most wild species of birds, and fish species etc etc etc.

Pretty homogeneous is hardly precise or scientific. I bet that you cannot find a single biologist specializing in the study of any of the organisms you mention that will agree with you. How many individuals of these creatures have you studied to make this determination?

Even so there may be a great deal of genetic diversity in such populations.

Of course. Most of the variable features in the members of a species are not visible characters, but rather variations in metabolic processes and internal structure.

You, sitting in front of your computer are hardly likely to notice the range of visible variation in the few photos of individual creatures you see on the screen. Polar bears are all white is about as far as you can go.


What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python

One important characteristic of a theory is that is has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie

If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --percy

The reason that we have the scientific method is because common sense isn't reliable. -- Taq


This message is a reply to:
 Message 551 by Faith, posted 06-28-2019 7:07 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 554 by Faith, posted 06-28-2019 11:04 PM Tanypteryx has not yet responded

  
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2018 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.0 Beta
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2020