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Author Topic:   A test for claimed knowledge of how macroevolution occurs
Taq
Member
Posts: 8524
Joined: 03-06-2009


Message 301 of 785 (855230)
06-17-2019 6:30 PM
Reply to: Message 299 by Faith
06-17-2019 6:25 PM


Re: Tracking the route of macroevolution
Faith writes:

All I see is assumptions that the differences between apes, such as chimps, and humans, are nothing but mutations.

I gave you the evidence, and you refuse to even look at it.

And then Taq says the most bizarre things about how God would have had to use mutations or something **** that and I know we're in Never-Never Land and nothing is ever going to make sense.

God couldn't use the same genome sequence in all species, could he? God would have had to use different genome sequences, right?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 299 by Faith, posted 06-17-2019 6:25 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 302 by Faith, posted 06-17-2019 6:31 PM Taq has not replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 756 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 302 of 785 (855231)
06-17-2019 6:31 PM
Reply to: Message 301 by Taq
06-17-2019 6:30 PM


Re: Tracking the route of macroevolution
Uh huh.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 301 by Taq, posted 06-17-2019 6:30 PM Taq has not replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 756 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 303 of 785 (855232)
06-17-2019 6:35 PM
Reply to: Message 278 by Taq
06-17-2019 5:04 PM


Re: Tracking the route of macroevolution
If the designed genomes have different sequences then those differences are changes.

See, this makes NO sense at all, NONE, ZIP. "Changes" from what? Each is UNIQUE, none has been CHANGED from another, each is a separate design. You do have a ****** ****** that has your brain so hardwired to mutations you simply cannot think outside that box.

AND WITH THAT BIZARRE PIECE OF CENSORSHIP BY PERCY I HAVE TO CONCLUDE THAT HE DOESN'T WANT TO SUSPEND ME DIRECTLY FOR SOME REASON SO HE'S DECIDED TO TAKE EVERY WORD IN THE DICTIONARY AWAY FROM ME ONE BY ONE UNTIL I CAN'T WRITE ANYTHING AT ALL. HE IS TRULY MAD.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 278 by Taq, posted 06-17-2019 5:04 PM Taq has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 329 by Admin, posted 06-18-2019 8:40 AM Faith has not replied
 Message 330 by Taq, posted 06-18-2019 11:06 AM Faith has not replied

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 6828
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 3.3


Message 304 of 785 (855233)
06-17-2019 6:38 PM
Reply to: Message 299 by Faith
06-17-2019 6:25 PM


Re: Tracking the route of macroevolution
I've asked for any evidence that can change the structure of a genome, but all mutations can do is change what's IN the genome,

What is the difference between structure of a genome and mutations that change what's IN the genome? What structure?

change one allele into another, but alleles determine traits that belong to the creature the genome belongs to

Absolutely.

All I see is assumptions that the differences between apes, such as chimps, and humans, are nothing but mutations.

What else would they be if not changes from a far earlier genome?

I know we're in Never-Never Land and nothing is ever going to make sense.

Welcome to Earth, Human.


Eschew obfuscation. Habituate elucidation.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 299 by Faith, posted 06-17-2019 6:25 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 305 by Faith, posted 06-17-2019 6:44 PM AZPaul3 has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 756 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 305 of 785 (855234)
06-17-2019 6:44 PM
Reply to: Message 304 by AZPaul3
06-17-2019 6:38 PM


Re: Tracking the route of macroevolution
YOu guys have no appreciation for the enormous amount of variability that exists in the millions/billions of genes in one genome each with only two alleles. It's enough to make all the cats from the cat genome, all the dogs from the dog genome (even counting all the junk DNA as other variations on a cat or a dog that got killed by mutations), there is no need for any mutations and all they do is get in the way of understanding what is really going on. If you don't see how you can never get anything BUT a cat from the cat genome or a chimp from the chimp genome I don't know how to make you see it.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 304 by AZPaul3, posted 06-17-2019 6:38 PM AZPaul3 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 306 by AZPaul3, posted 06-17-2019 7:01 PM Faith has replied

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 6828
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 3.3


Message 306 of 785 (855235)
06-17-2019 7:01 PM
Reply to: Message 305 by Faith
06-17-2019 6:44 PM


Re: Tracking the route of macroevolution
No one is arguing against the fact that the DNA space is as near infinite. That is not the issue.

What is the issue is what is the DNA space *available* under what circumstances.

We don’t really care how many combinations there theoretically could be, we are only interested in the combinations that actually are.


Eschew obfuscation. Habituate elucidation.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 305 by Faith, posted 06-17-2019 6:44 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 307 by Faith, posted 06-17-2019 7:06 PM AZPaul3 has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 756 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 307 of 785 (855236)
06-17-2019 7:06 PM
Reply to: Message 306 by AZPaul3
06-17-2019 7:01 PM


Re: Tracking the route of macroevolution
NO idea what you are talking about.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 306 by AZPaul3, posted 06-17-2019 7:01 PM AZPaul3 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 308 by AZPaul3, posted 06-17-2019 7:44 PM Faith has replied

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 6828
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 3.3


Message 308 of 785 (855238)
06-17-2019 7:44 PM
Reply to: Message 307 by Faith
06-17-2019 7:06 PM


Re: Tracking the route of macroevolution
You were saying the genome is way big and can more then handle the number of alleles.

I was saying the genome *is* big but it is finite and that not every allele possible could be in there. So the ones that were not there to begin with had to get into this limited genome somehow.

No one is arguing against cats make cats and chimps make chimps.

We’re arguing that genomes change over time. Like everything else in this universe.


Eschew obfuscation. Habituate elucidation.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 307 by Faith, posted 06-17-2019 7:06 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 309 by Faith, posted 06-17-2019 7:58 PM AZPaul3 has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 756 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 309 of 785 (855242)
06-17-2019 7:58 PM
Reply to: Message 308 by AZPaul3
06-17-2019 7:44 PM


Re: Tracking the route of macroevolution
You were saying the genome is way big and can more then handle the number of alleles.

I was saying the genome *is* big but it is finite and that not every allele possible could be in there. So the ones that were not there to begin with had to get into this limited genome somehow.

No one is arguing against cats make cats and chimps make chimps.

We’re arguing that genomes change over time. **** everything else in this universe.

I wasn't saying the [cat] genome can "more than handle the number of alleles," the point was that it originally had all the genetic stuff needed to make every kind of cat that exists now and ever existed. (most cat genomes now most likely have severely reduced genetic diversity BECAUSE so many species of cat have been made). So yes, every allele to make every possible cat is/was indeed in there from the beginning. And I count junk DNA as former alleles that contributed to the many kinds of cats, or dogs, or whatever though the variability in the genome without it is no doubt enough for everything that exists. Nothing additional "had to get into this limited genome somehow." I'm not saying genomes don't change but the way YOU think they change is not the way I think they change. I think they lose genetic diversity over time, and of course junk DNA in my model would be a record of lots of lost genetic diversity.

ABE: So now I'm remembering that you think the more mutations the better, the more "alleles" there are floating around in a population the better. I don't think mutations contribute anything at all to a genemoe, I think they are superfluous at best. I believe the genetic system is broken the way all llfe is broken, with death and disease etc., and that mutations are a form of disease and also contribute to death of genetic variability. They may sometimes repeat a useful sequence or in the case of neutral mutations at least not change anything, but they are not necessary or useful.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 308 by AZPaul3, posted 06-17-2019 7:44 PM AZPaul3 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 310 by AZPaul3, posted 06-17-2019 8:49 PM Faith has replied
 Message 312 by AZPaul3, posted 06-17-2019 9:01 PM Faith has replied

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 6828
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 3.3


Message 310 of 785 (855247)
06-17-2019 8:49 PM
Reply to: Message 309 by Faith
06-17-2019 7:58 PM


Re: Tracking the route of macroevolution
So your definition of change is more moving things around than creating something new? And yet you acknowledge that mutations, like SNPs, do happen. A single SNP would make a change. Make something new. Yes?

Eschew obfuscation. Habituate elucidation.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 309 by Faith, posted 06-17-2019 7:58 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 311 by Faith, posted 06-17-2019 8:52 PM AZPaul3 has seen this message but not replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 756 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 311 of 785 (855248)
06-17-2019 8:52 PM
Reply to: Message 310 by AZPaul3
06-17-2019 8:49 PM


Re: Tracking the route of macroevolution
I forget what a SNP is.

Yes I don't think there's any need for anything new, at least not in the original genome, before death entered the world.

My "definition of change" in the genome isn't so much "moving things around" as it is subtracting genetic diversity, and this is because of death. If death had not entered the world there would be no loss of genetic diversity and we would have a much larger range of interesting species/variations on every Kind.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 310 by AZPaul3, posted 06-17-2019 8:49 PM AZPaul3 has seen this message but not replied

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 6828
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 3.3


Message 312 of 785 (855249)
06-17-2019 9:01 PM
Reply to: Message 309 by Faith
06-17-2019 7:58 PM


Re: Tracking the route of macroevolution
I believe the genetic system is broken the way all llfe is broken, with death and disease etc., and that mutations are a form of disease and also contribute to death of genetic variability.

Thus the religion, Gloomy Jane.


Eschew obfuscation. Habituate elucidation.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 309 by Faith, posted 06-17-2019 7:58 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 313 by Faith, posted 06-17-2019 9:11 PM AZPaul3 has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 756 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 313 of 785 (855251)
06-17-2019 9:11 PM
Reply to: Message 312 by AZPaul3
06-17-2019 9:01 PM


Re: Tracking the route of macroevolution
Yes the Creation dictates how the genetic facts should play out, and it's possible to put together a very coherent model from it. Do you deny that death and disease are a huge part of our existence? Not sure why having an explanation for it should be more "gloomy" than the facts themselves.

Anyway, there's no need for mutations in this model so they exist as mistakes or negative factors that can only be explained in terms of the death and disease in existence.

So are you at the end of this discussion? Nothing more to say?

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 312 by AZPaul3, posted 06-17-2019 9:01 PM AZPaul3 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 314 by AZPaul3, posted 06-17-2019 9:31 PM Faith has replied

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 6828
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 3.3


Message 314 of 785 (855252)
06-17-2019 9:31 PM
Reply to: Message 313 by Faith
06-17-2019 9:11 PM


Re: Tracking the route of macroevolution
When a discussion of this type gets to the level of religion it really is over.

The only thing left then is ridicule and I don't feel like making fun of my favorite demented crazy lady right now. Maybe later.


Eschew obfuscation. Habituate elucidation.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 313 by Faith, posted 06-17-2019 9:11 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 315 by Faith, posted 06-17-2019 9:36 PM AZPaul3 has seen this message but not replied
 Message 322 by Faith, posted 06-18-2019 5:31 AM AZPaul3 has seen this message but not replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 756 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 315 of 785 (855253)
06-17-2019 9:36 PM
Reply to: Message 314 by AZPaul3
06-17-2019 9:31 PM


Re: Tracking the route of macroevolution
But there is no need to discuss the religious basis of the theory, it should be possible to discuss the theory itself without all that. But right now I have to take a break anyway.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 314 by AZPaul3, posted 06-17-2019 9:31 PM AZPaul3 has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 317 by PaulK, posted 06-18-2019 12:24 AM Faith has replied

  
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