Understanding through Discussion


Welcome! You are not logged in. [ Login ]
EvC Forum active members: 84 (8915 total)
Current session began: 
Page Loaded: 07-17-2019 8:33 AM
31 online now:
jar, Percy (Admin), Son Goku (3 members, 28 visitors)
Chatting now:  Chat room empty
Newest Member: 4petdinos
Happy Birthday: lopezeast0211
Post Volume:
Total: 856,853 Year: 11,889/19,786 Month: 1,670/2,641 Week: 179/708 Day: 6/40 Hour: 1/1


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Prev1
2
345Next
Author Topic:   The Case For A Creator
Faith
Member
Posts: 32133
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 16 of 67 (856307)
06-29-2019 1:25 PM
Reply to: Message 8 by Thugpreacha
06-29-2019 8:11 AM


Re: Objective Verifiable Reality versus Subjective Experience
I would argue that the "religion" of Christianity was never meant to be discerned and accepted based on objective verifiable evidence. Of course there were allegedly a few eyewitnesses to some of the major stories within the NT,

There were a lot more than a "few" eyewitnesses to most of Jesus' miracles among other things. He fed thousands from a few loaves. He provided enough wine for a whole wedding feast etc etc.

...but the belief seemingly spread **** a wildfire through the people afterwards. One could argue that the spread itself was cause for claiming validity...but arguably Islam spread even faster, so truth cannot be used as the reason.

Mohammed had very little success with his new religion at first, but when he decided to impose it on the people at the point of a sword, slaughtering a whole village of Jews who wouldn't accept it, THEN it spread and is now the religion of the whole population.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 8 by Thugpreacha, posted 06-29-2019 8:11 AM Thugpreacha has acknowledged this reply

Replies to this message:
 Message 17 by ringo, posted 06-29-2019 1:37 PM Faith has not yet responded

    
ringo
Member
Posts: 16806
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 3.4


Message 17 of 67 (856310)
06-29-2019 1:37 PM
Reply to: Message 16 by Faith
06-29-2019 1:25 PM


Re: Objective Verifiable Reality versus Subjective Experience
Faith writes:

There were a lot more than a "few" eyewitnesses to most of Jesus' miracles among other things. He fed thousands from a few loaves. He provided enough wine for a whole wedding feast etc etc.


You can't include all of those as eyewitnesses. They may have seen but they didn't testify. The only testimony we have is from the gospel writers themselves (who weren't necessarily eyewitnesses themselves).

All that are in Hell, choose it. -- CS Lewis
That's just egregiously stupid. -- ringo

This message is a reply to:
 Message 16 by Faith, posted 06-29-2019 1:25 PM Faith has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 19 by Thugpreacha, posted 06-29-2019 4:22 PM ringo has responded

  
Thugpreacha
Member
Posts: 12566
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 18 of 67 (856331)
06-29-2019 4:19 PM
Reply to: Message 10 by Theodoric
06-29-2019 9:00 AM


Re: Objective Verifiable Reality versus Subjective Experience
Theodoric,refuting my claim of rapidly spreading Christianity writes:

There is no evidence of this. There is actually evidence that it spread very slowly for a few hundred years.
It did not become the major belief until it was co-opted by imperial powers.

Fair enough. The original believers were quite strong and pure, however...based on what they had witnessed. The mythicists throw pseudo facts out there to confuse the layman seeking truth, however. Granted the Christianity peddled by the imperial powers was watered down and adapted to justify secular conquests...that much I wont argue. Throughout the History of Christianity and Christians in general...very few believers were actually that strong in regards to the death to self and adoption of Jesus message and Spirit. There have been notable documented exceptions, however. And this wqould go in line with the many are called and few chosen theology. Its a theme carried forward from the Jewish people. In battle after battle they seldom had a numerical advantage. God likes to show off by using a few to change the world. Nowadays, the secular majority would prefer that our zeal be stamped out and that it is in fact causing more harm than good. We could discuss whether that claim has any validity.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
~Stile


This message is a reply to:
 Message 10 by Theodoric, posted 06-29-2019 9:00 AM Theodoric has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 21 by Theodoric, posted 06-29-2019 9:41 PM Thugpreacha has acknowledged this reply

  
Thugpreacha
Member
Posts: 12566
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 19 of 67 (856333)
06-29-2019 4:22 PM
Reply to: Message 17 by ringo
06-29-2019 1:37 PM


Re: Objective Verifiable Reality versus Subjective Experience
ringo writes:

You can't include all of those as eyewitnesses.

But I surely would include some even if but a small minority. Perhaps the Upper Room contained them all. But there have been eyewitnesses of the power of the Holy Spirit throughout History. You would cry foul and call for objective verifiable evidence, as would Stile. We never will agree...you and us. But I need to get to work Safeway Beckons...

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
~Stile


This message is a reply to:
 Message 17 by ringo, posted 06-29-2019 1:37 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 20 by ringo, posted 06-29-2019 4:58 PM Thugpreacha has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 16806
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 3.4


Message 20 of 67 (856336)
06-29-2019 4:58 PM
Reply to: Message 19 by Thugpreacha
06-29-2019 4:22 PM


Re: Objective Verifiable Reality versus Subjective Experience
Phat writes:

But I surely would include some even if but a small minority.


No, you can not include characters in the story as eyewitnesses to the story. That should be obvious. A storyteller saying they were eyewitnesses doesn't make them eyewitesses.

And even if the event did really happen, you would not get thousands of eyewitnesses telling the same story. You'd get so many different versions that it would be impossible to tell what actually happened.


All that are in Hell, choose it. -- CS Lewis
That's just egregiously stupid. -- ringo

This message is a reply to:
 Message 19 by Thugpreacha, posted 06-29-2019 4:22 PM Thugpreacha has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 22 by Thugpreacha, posted 06-30-2019 11:51 AM ringo has responded

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 6392
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.8


Message 21 of 67 (856352)
06-29-2019 9:41 PM
Reply to: Message 18 by Thugpreacha
06-29-2019 4:19 PM


Re: Objective Verifiable Reality versus Subjective Experience
Boy. You just moved the goalposts so far that not only are they not on the same field they are not even in the same town anymore.
You admit your argument is wrong and come up with a completely different argument all together.

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up why would you have to lie?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 18 by Thugpreacha, posted 06-29-2019 4:19 PM Thugpreacha has acknowledged this reply

    
Thugpreacha
Member
Posts: 12566
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 22 of 67 (856380)
06-30-2019 11:51 AM
Reply to: Message 20 by ringo
06-29-2019 4:58 PM


Re: Objective Verifiable Reality versus Subjective Experience
Differing events produce different degrees of eyewitness testimonies. If the observers themselves are unaffected by the event and it merely seems exciting or interesting to them,then yes there will be many versions of what happened. As an example, say a crowd of people see a man fall through the ice at a park. The man is incidental to most---some may feel sorry for the guy and some may have been interrupted while drinking their beer. Thus of course there will be many variations on what was seen and on what occurred.

But what I am trying (unsuccessfully) to get through your thick skulls is that the event and events that I am describing are in fact life changing events for every single one of us. None of you are uninvolved. None of you are detached observers milling about the mall of ideas.

None of you understand or believe this, which is puzzling though expected. The pont that I am making is that you will be affected by the events that earlier eyewitnesses testified about.

ringo writes:

No, you can not include characters in the story as eyewitnesses to the story. That should be obvious. A storyteller saying they were eyewitnesses doesn't make them eyewitnesses.
And even if the event did really happen, you would not get thousands of eyewitnesses telling the same story. You'd get so many different versions that it would be impossible to tell what actually happened.

The story is told not to sell copies nor entertain an audience. The story can arguably be told to manipulate and change public opinion and also be used to further the human agenda of imperial powers, as Theodoric asserts. The story stands or falls on its own merits.
The Gideons explain it this way:
quote:
The Bible contains the mind of God, the state of man, the way of salvation, the doom of sinners, and the happiness of believers. Its doctrines are holy, its precepts are binding, its histories are true, and its decisions are immutable. Read it to be wise, believe it to be safe, and practice it to be holy. It contains light to direct you, food to support you, and comfort to cheer you.
It is the traveler's map, the pilgrim's staff, the pilot's compass, the soldier's sword, and the Christian's charter. Here Paradise is restored, Heaven opened, and the gates of hell disclosed.
CHRIST is its grand subject, our good the design, and the glory of God its end.
It should fill the memory, rule the heart, and guide the feet. Read it slowly, frequently, and prayerfully. It is a mine of wealth, a paradise of glory, and a river of pleasure. It is given you in life, will be opened at the judgment, and be remembered forever. It involves the highest responsibility, will reward the greatest labor, and will condemn all who trifle with its sacred contents.

The fact that you are unimpressed nor moved by the book and its contents is also noted. You are digging your own grave. The book itself is relatively simple. Pulling up contradictions and inconsistencies is simply human attempts at manipulation of interpretation of reality.

Theodoric writes:

Boy. You just moved the goalposts so far that not only are they not on the same field they are not even in the same town anymore.
You admit your argument is wrong and come up with a completely different argument all together.

My argument is ongoing. It is true that you often expose it for being weak or incomplete, but keep in mind that concerning goals and goalposts you and I have different goals. You seek to expose the purpose of organized religion as a sham, scam, and fraud. I seek to defend the statement that the Gideons say above, concerning the Bible:
CHRIST is its grand subject, our good the design, and the glory of God its end.

Edited by Thugpreacha, : No reason given.


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
~Stile


This message is a reply to:
 Message 20 by ringo, posted 06-29-2019 4:58 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 23 by PaulK, posted 06-30-2019 2:15 PM Thugpreacha has responded
 Message 24 by ringo, posted 06-30-2019 2:16 PM Thugpreacha has responded

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 15204
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 3.4


(1)
Message 23 of 67 (856390)
06-30-2019 2:15 PM
Reply to: Message 22 by Thugpreacha
06-30-2019 11:51 AM


Re: Objective Verifiable Reality versus Subjective Experience
quote:

Differing events produce different degrees of eyewitness testimonies. If the observers themselves are unaffected by the event and it merely seems exciting or interesting to them,then yes there will be many versions of what happened

Well it appears that we have no eyewitness testimonies for Jesus’ ministry.

quote:

But what I am trying (unsuccessfully) to get through your thick skulls is that the event and events that I am describing are in fact life changing events for every single one of us. None of you are uninvolved. None of you are detached observers milling about the mall of ideas.

We were not there. The events themselves are remote, likely touch us less than, say, the Battle of Actium. We are not even observers.

quote:

The fact that you are unimpressed nor moved by the book and its contents is also noted. You are digging your own grave. The book itself is relatively simple. Pulling up contradictions and inconsistencies is simply human attempts at manipulation of interpretation of reality.

The odd thing is that I heard that the Christian God is not a great fan of idolaters. Why should we unquestioningly believe what the Gideons say ? Why are we not allowed to study the Bible and find out that things are not quite as they would have us believe ?

quote:

My argument is ongoing. It is true that you often expose it for being weak or incomplete, but keep in mind that concerning goals and goalposts you and I have different goals. You seek to expose the purpose of organized religion as a sham, scam, and fraud. I seek to defend the statement that the Gideons say above, concerning the Bible:
CHRIST is its grand subject, our good the design, and the glory of God its end.

You are doing a very good job of making it look like a scam.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 22 by Thugpreacha, posted 06-30-2019 11:51 AM Thugpreacha has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 30 by Thugpreacha, posted 07-04-2019 12:48 PM PaulK has not yet responded

    
ringo
Member
Posts: 16806
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 3.4


(2)
Message 24 of 67 (856391)
06-30-2019 2:16 PM
Reply to: Message 22 by Thugpreacha
06-30-2019 11:51 AM


Re: Objective Verifiable Reality versus Subjective Experience
Phat writes:

But what I am trying (unsuccessfully) to get through your thick skulls is that the event and events that I am describing are in fact life changing events for every single one of us.


And what I'm trying to get across is that those "events" are not real events at all. The effect on the reader does not determine the reality of the events. People can be affected by fictional events as readily as by real events.

Phat writes:

The fact that you are unimpressed nor moved by the book and its contents is also noted.


Why do you keep lying about that? I have told you many times that I respect the book more than you do. I'm the one who quotes it to you and you're the one who rejects it.

Phat writes:

Pulling up contradictions and inconsistencies is simply human attempts at manipulation of interpretation of reality.


We're not talking about contradictions or inconsistencies here. We're talking about you flat-out contradicting what the Bible says.

All that are in Hell, choose it. -- CS Lewis
That's just egregiously stupid. -- ringo

This message is a reply to:
 Message 22 by Thugpreacha, posted 06-30-2019 11:51 AM Thugpreacha has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 25 by Thugpreacha, posted 06-30-2019 4:11 PM ringo has acknowledged this reply

  
Thugpreacha
Member
Posts: 12566
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 25 of 67 (856416)
06-30-2019 4:11 PM
Reply to: Message 24 by ringo
06-30-2019 2:16 PM


Re: Objective Verifiable Reality versus Subjective Experience
I'll concede this point. You have won it. Hope y'all have a good rest of the day.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
~Stile


This message is a reply to:
 Message 24 by ringo, posted 06-30-2019 2:16 PM ringo has acknowledged this reply

  
Sarah Bellum
Member
Posts: 224
Joined: 05-04-2019
Member Rating: 2.4


(2)
Message 26 of 67 (856637)
07-01-2019 11:40 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Thugpreacha
06-28-2019 7:03 AM


I think starting with "why is there something rather than nothing" and arriving at the answer "because there is a god" is a most illogical piece of thinking.

Not because it's wrong. Who's to say it isn't? It's not falsifiable.

But it doesn't provide any more knowledge to believe it.

Same with the "Oooh, the universe has such a complex structure!"


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Thugpreacha, posted 06-28-2019 7:03 AM Thugpreacha has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 27 by Pressie, posted 07-04-2019 8:50 AM Sarah Bellum has acknowledged this reply
 Message 28 by ringo, posted 07-04-2019 12:38 PM Sarah Bellum has acknowledged this reply

    
Pressie
Member
Posts: 2074
From: Pretoria, SA
Joined: 06-18-2010
Member Rating: 2.7


Message 27 of 67 (856927)
07-04-2019 8:50 AM
Reply to: Message 26 by Sarah Bellum
07-01-2019 11:40 PM


Sarah Bellum writes:

I think starting with "why is there something rather than nothing" and arriving at the answer "because there is a god" is a most illogical piece of thinking.

Yeah, me too. Following that line of thinking, the next question is: why is there then supposedly a god rather than nothing? Lots of goddists then go on with special pleading arguments. That's it.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 26 by Sarah Bellum, posted 07-01-2019 11:40 PM Sarah Bellum has acknowledged this reply

Replies to this message:
 Message 29 by Thugpreacha, posted 07-04-2019 12:46 PM Pressie has not yet responded

    
ringo
Member
Posts: 16806
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 3.4


Message 28 of 67 (856969)
07-04-2019 12:38 PM
Reply to: Message 26 by Sarah Bellum
07-01-2019 11:40 PM


Same with the "Oooh, the universe has such a complex structure!"

Chaplain: Let us praise God. O Lord...

Congregation: O Lord...

Chaplain: ...Ooh, You are so big...

Congregation: ...Ooh, You are so big...

Chaplain: ...So absolutely huge.

Congregation: ...So absolutely huge.

Chaplain: Gosh, we're all really impressed down here, I can tell You.

Congregation: Gosh, we're all really impressed down here, I can tell You.

Chaplain: Forgive us, O Lord, for this, our dreadful toadying, and...

Congregation: And barefaced flattery.

Chaplain: But You are so strong and, well, just so super.

Congregation: Fantastic.

Humphrey: Amen.

Congregation: Amen.

-- Monty Python's The meaning of Life


All that are in Hell, choose it. -- CS Lewis
That's just egregiously stupid. -- ringo

This message is a reply to:
 Message 26 by Sarah Bellum, posted 07-01-2019 11:40 PM Sarah Bellum has acknowledged this reply

  
Thugpreacha
Member
Posts: 12566
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 29 of 67 (856972)
07-04-2019 12:46 PM
Reply to: Message 27 by Pressie
07-04-2019 8:50 AM


Of course the question could be reframed. Why is there an intelligence greater than humans which may or may not be friendly?

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
~Stile


This message is a reply to:
 Message 27 by Pressie, posted 07-04-2019 8:50 AM Pressie has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 31 by Sarah Bellum, posted 07-04-2019 1:40 PM Thugpreacha has responded

  
Thugpreacha
Member
Posts: 12566
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 30 of 67 (856973)
07-04-2019 12:48 PM
Reply to: Message 23 by PaulK
06-30-2019 2:15 PM


Re: Objective Verifiable Reality versus Subjective Experience
You are doing a very good job of making it look like a scam.
Really? That was never my intention. Thanks for the feedback though.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
~Stile


This message is a reply to:
 Message 23 by PaulK, posted 06-30-2019 2:15 PM PaulK has not yet responded

  
Prev1
2
345Next
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2018 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.0 Beta
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2019