The Case For A Creator

With all the stars and all the planets elsewhere in the universe, it seems likely that there IS an intelligence out there on one or more of them and that it could be greater than humanity.

Lets hope they're friendly.

Indeed. And in the interests of conversation with you, I shall throw my script away and wing it. Im wondering how to send you an audio chat MP3 since i have so darn much to say. Perhaps I will get around to typing it...in which case I shall edit this post..

Hey Thugpreacha. Intelligence is the opposite of Spooks.

Edited by Pressie, : No reason given.

Oh?

Define Intelligence

Define spooks

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Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.~Stile

From another threaad...more appropriately discussed here:

jar writes: Just as Flood Geology defeats Flood Geology, the actual contents of the Bible defeats Biblical Inerrancy. Reality always defeats fantasy.

While many apologists and CCoI Christians continue to speak from willful ignorance, it is hardly evident that all apologists do. Its like I told ringo:

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The default standard need not be scientific objectifiable proof in regards to such matters. How would one go about proving God to begin with?

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You have historically argued for Christianity being a philosophical lesson based on reality and have steered clear of ascribing Divinity and/or Omniscience to either GOD or Jesus. Yet you claim to be a "believer". So what is your basic case for a Creator? Why not simply an exploding self creating universe?

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While many apologists and CCoI Christians continue to speak from willful ignorance, it is hardly evident that all apologists do

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Not all apologists are Biblical Inerrantists either. However jar has a valid point - there are real contradictions in the Bible. Why some people deny it - there’s a question.

There is no reasonable, rational or logical support for a belief in a creator.

I believe there was a Creator but I understand that is simply an unreasonable illogical irrational belief.

There is no "Case for a Creator".

All you are really saying is that belief--in GOD---perhaps clarified by Jesus Christ (the Nicene Creed)---is irrational, illogical, and unreasonable. So why do you believe?

PaulK writes: Not all apologists are Biblical Inerrantists either. However jar has a valid point - there are real contradictions in the Bible. Why some people deny it - there’s a question.

Granted. Perhaps a valid line of questioning is to the motives as to why the books were written in the first place. Have people really belived that they interacted with God and that Jesus was more than simply a prophet? Or were the motives less honorable?

Personally I believe that there is a sort of ongoing spiritual war between Truth and Lies. I believe that the origin of the spiritual awareness behind such a war is eternal...or at least before the creation/evolution of this planet and its human inhabitants. And I will admit that this is an irrational belief. I do not think it simply fantasy, however.

I think that the whole story of Star Wars(mythos, if you prefer) is writ large.

Phat writes: All you are really saying is that belief--in GOD---perhaps clarified by Jesus Christ (the Nicene Creed)---is irrational, illogical, and unreasonable.

Jesus had absolutely nothing to do with the Nicene Creed but yes, the Nicene Creed in particular is unreasonable, irrational and illogical.

Phat writes: So why do you believe?

For the same reason anyone believes anything, how they were brought up, what social influence were in their life, comfort.

The fact is that I do believe but don't try to pretend that it is not illogical, unreasonable and irrational.

jar writes: The fact is that I do believe but don't try to pretend that it is not illogical, unreasonable and irrational.

I'll give you that. I can and have read much of what you say regarding the irrationality of Christian belief(basic CCoI version) in general. To wit:

jar,addressing Stile writes: I would tend to agree with you that your position is the reasonable, rational and logical position. I happen to believe otherwise but certainly realize that my beliefs are unreasonable, irrational and illogical.

Lets test them. How far out of the boat are you willing to walk?

jar writes: Remember Phat, the Bible itself describes man, plain old human type man, correcting God. We've been over this more then once IIRC. The Bible itself describes God as unsure, insecure, frightened by the prospects of plain old humans, unable to defeat a plain old human even by using deceit and trickery... Why do you insist on placing the God YOU create above the God other folk create?

I place the God whom I believe in above all else.

jar writes: GOD, if GOD exists simply is complete. God is a little more specific yet still amorphous. You can talk about The Christian God or the Hebrew God or the Hindu Gods or the Islamic God but that doesn't tell us much at all since there is still no such unique specific thing. Then we get to god where there can be specificity. There is the god from Genesis 1 and the god from Genesis 2 and Ganesha and Thor and Allah and the god Faith markets and the god Spruel marketed and the god MacArthur marketed and the god you like and Coyote and Turtle and ...

phat writes: Also, do you believe that God, as marketed by Christians, is an improvement on the earlier ideas?

jar writes: Again, there is no God marketed by Christians but only gods. And no, I do not think the god most Christians market is an improvement on anything.

What about the GOD (and the Jesus) that you market? Lets trot out the really tough questions!

ringo claims that everything known and/or knowable about the Christian God and His Son Jesus Christ is contained within the book. Which would suggest that God (and Jesus) could never truly be alive within reality and within one's heart...were that true. So which is it? Which do you choose to believe? That God and Jesus are simply characters in a book. Tales of mythos told around campfires so that a traveling storyteller could earn a living? You always ask me how I can prove or describe what it means that Jesus is alive. What if I told you that it is as simple as embracing an admittedly illogical belief? How far out of the boat are you willing to walk?

Phat writes: You always ask me how I can prove or describe what it means that Jesus is alive. What if I told you that it is as simple as embracing an admittedly illogical belief? How far out of the boat are you willing to walk?

There you go making the same old mistake.

No belief is evidence of anything except that someone believes. A belief that Jesus is alive has no real meaning unless you can explain what that even means.

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Granted. Perhaps a valid line of questioning is to the motives as to why the books were written in the first place

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That is a question that must be settled on a book-for-book basis. And even then some books have major additions that need to be considered separately.

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Have people really belived that they interacted with God and that Jesus was more than simply a prophet? Or were the motives less honorable?

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Obviously the OT authors had no view on Jesus at all. Many do not claim to have personally interacted with God. Most of them were promoting a view that they likely believed.

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Personally I believe that there is a sort of ongoing spiritual war between Truth and Lies.

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If so, you don’t seem too careful about which side you are serving.

jar writes: No belief is evidence of anything except that someone believes. A belief that Jesus is alive has no real meaning unless you can explain what that even means.

If it were explainable, people would have no need for belief. They would simply accept or reject the facts. The book clearly suggests that not everyone will believe. It even suggests that a minority will actually believe and a majority will reject Christ and/or His message. You always claim that Christianity is more about what a person actually does than it is on what they believe, so you have your excuse around that argument. Perhaps God would show mercy to an atheist with no desire to accept Jesus but who dutifully and perhaps even joyfully clothed,fed, encouraged, and edified the people with no strings attached.

Then again, perhaps God wants us to actually get to know His character...expressed to humans through a human.

Thugzy writes: Personally I believe that there is a sort of ongoing spiritual war between Truth and Lies.

PaulK writes: If so, you don’t seem too careful about which side you are serving.

how careful can we be? How do we really know which side is which?