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Author Topic:   The Case For A Creator
Sarah Bellum
Member (Idle past 7 days)
Posts: 413
Joined: 05-04-2019


(3)
Message 31 of 67 (856985)
07-04-2019 1:40 PM
Reply to: Message 29 by Thugpreacha
07-04-2019 12:46 PM


With all the stars and all the planets elsewhere in the universe, it seems likely that there IS an intelligence out there on one or more of them and that it could be greater than humanity.

Lets hope they're friendly.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 29 by Thugpreacha, posted 07-04-2019 12:46 PM Thugpreacha has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 32 by Thugpreacha, posted 07-04-2019 3:56 PM Sarah Bellum has acknowledged this reply

  
Thugpreacha
Member
Posts: 13143
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 32 of 67 (856998)
07-04-2019 3:56 PM
Reply to: Message 31 by Sarah Bellum
07-04-2019 1:40 PM


Conversing With Aliens
Indeed. And in the interests of conversation with you, I shall throw my script away and wing it. Im wondering how to send you an audio chat MP3 since i have so darn much to say. Perhaps I will get around to typing it...in which case I shall edit this post..

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
~Stile


This message is a reply to:
 Message 31 by Sarah Bellum, posted 07-04-2019 1:40 PM Sarah Bellum has acknowledged this reply

Replies to this message:
 Message 33 by Pressie, posted 07-05-2019 8:04 AM Thugpreacha has responded

  
Pressie
Member
Posts: 2081
From: Pretoria, SA
Joined: 06-18-2010


Message 33 of 67 (857052)
07-05-2019 8:04 AM
Reply to: Message 32 by Thugpreacha
07-04-2019 3:56 PM


Re: Conversing With Aliens
Hey Thugpreacha. Intelligence is the opposite of Spooks.

Edited by Pressie, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 32 by Thugpreacha, posted 07-04-2019 3:56 PM Thugpreacha has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 34 by Thugpreacha, posted 07-06-2019 12:19 PM Pressie has not yet responded

  
Thugpreacha
Member
Posts: 13143
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 34 of 67 (857187)
07-06-2019 12:19 PM
Reply to: Message 33 by Pressie
07-05-2019 8:04 AM


Re: Conversing With Aliens
Oh?

  • Define Intelligence

  • Define spooks

    Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
    ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

    You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

    Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
    In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
    ~Stile


  • This message is a reply to:
     Message 33 by Pressie, posted 07-05-2019 8:04 AM Pressie has not yet responded

      
    Thugpreacha
    Member
    Posts: 13143
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.2


    Message 35 of 67 (857908)
    07-13-2019 9:31 AM


    jars logic regarding a Creator
    From another threaad...more appropriately discussed here:
    jar writes:

    Just as Flood Geology defeats Flood Geology, the actual contents of the Bible defeats Biblical Inerrancy.
    Reality always defeats fantasy.

    While many apologists and CCoI Christians continue to speak from willful ignorance, it is hardly evident that all apologists do. Its like I told ringo:
    quote:
    The default standard need not be scientific objectifiable proof in regards to such matters. How would one go about proving God to begin with?

    You have historically argued for Christianity being a philosophical lesson based on reality and have steered clear of ascribing Divinity and/or Omniscience to either GOD or Jesus. Yet you claim to be a "believer". So what is your basic case for a Creator? Why not simply an exploding self creating universe?


    Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
    ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

    You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

    Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
    In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
    ~Stile


    Replies to this message:
     Message 36 by PaulK, posted 07-13-2019 9:44 AM Thugpreacha has responded
     Message 37 by jar, posted 07-13-2019 9:58 AM Thugpreacha has responded
     Message 47 by ringo, posted 07-13-2019 11:57 AM Thugpreacha has responded

      
    PaulK
    Member
    Posts: 15549
    Joined: 01-10-2003
    Member Rating: 2.9


    Message 36 of 67 (857909)
    07-13-2019 9:44 AM
    Reply to: Message 35 by Thugpreacha
    07-13-2019 9:31 AM


    Re: jars logic regarding a Creator
    quote:

    While many apologists and CCoI Christians continue to speak from willful ignorance, it is hardly evident that all apologists do

    Not all apologists are Biblical Inerrantists either. However jar has a valid point - there are real contradictions in the Bible. Why some people deny it - there’s a question.


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 35 by Thugpreacha, posted 07-13-2019 9:31 AM Thugpreacha has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 39 by Thugpreacha, posted 07-13-2019 10:20 AM PaulK has responded

      
    jar
    Member
    Posts: 31609
    From: Texas!!
    Joined: 04-20-2004
    Member Rating: 2.6


    Message 37 of 67 (857910)
    07-13-2019 9:58 AM
    Reply to: Message 35 by Thugpreacha
    07-13-2019 9:31 AM


    Re: jars logic regarding a Creator
    There is no reasonable, rational or logical support for a belief in a creator.

    I believe there was a Creator but I understand that is simply an unreasonable illogical irrational belief.

    There is no "Case for a Creator".


    My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios � � My Website: My Website

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 35 by Thugpreacha, posted 07-13-2019 9:31 AM Thugpreacha has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 38 by Thugpreacha, posted 07-13-2019 10:13 AM jar has responded

      
    Thugpreacha
    Member
    Posts: 13143
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.2


    Message 38 of 67 (857911)
    07-13-2019 10:13 AM
    Reply to: Message 37 by jar
    07-13-2019 9:58 AM


    Re: jars logic regarding a Creator
    All you are really saying is that belief--in GOD---perhaps clarified by Jesus Christ (the Nicene Creed)---is irrational, illogical, and unreasonable. So why do you believe?

    Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
    ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

    You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

    Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
    In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
    ~Stile


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 37 by jar, posted 07-13-2019 9:58 AM jar has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 40 by jar, posted 07-13-2019 10:27 AM Thugpreacha has responded

      
    Thugpreacha
    Member
    Posts: 13143
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.2


    Message 39 of 67 (857912)
    07-13-2019 10:20 AM
    Reply to: Message 36 by PaulK
    07-13-2019 9:44 AM


    Re: jars logic regarding a Creator
    PaulK writes:

    Not all apologists are Biblical Inerrantists either. However jar has a valid point - there are real contradictions in the Bible. Why some people deny it - there’s a question.

    Granted. Perhaps a valid line of questioning is to the motives as to why the books were written in the first place. Have people really belived that they interacted with God and that Jesus was more than simply a prophet? Or were the motives less honorable?

    Personally I believe that there is a sort of ongoing spiritual war between Truth and Lies. I believe that the origin of the spiritual awareness behind such a war is eternal...or at least before the creation/evolution of this planet and its human inhabitants. And I will admit that this is an irrational belief. I do not think it simply fantasy, however.

    I think that the whole story of Star Wars(mythos, if you prefer) is writ large.


    Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
    ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

    You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

    Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
    In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
    ~Stile


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 36 by PaulK, posted 07-13-2019 9:44 AM PaulK has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 43 by PaulK, posted 07-13-2019 11:01 AM Thugpreacha has responded

      
    jar
    Member
    Posts: 31609
    From: Texas!!
    Joined: 04-20-2004
    Member Rating: 2.6


    (1)
    Message 40 of 67 (857914)
    07-13-2019 10:27 AM
    Reply to: Message 38 by Thugpreacha
    07-13-2019 10:13 AM


    Re: jars logic regarding a Creator
    Phat writes:

    All you are really saying is that belief--in GOD---perhaps clarified by Jesus Christ (the Nicene Creed)---is irrational, illogical, and unreasonable.

    Jesus had absolutely nothing to do with the Nicene Creed but yes, the Nicene Creed in particular is unreasonable, irrational and illogical.

    Phat writes:

    So why do you believe?

    For the same reason anyone believes anything, how they were brought up, what social influence were in their life, comfort.

    The fact is that I do believe but don't try to pretend that it is not illogical, unreasonable and irrational.


    My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios � � My Website: My Website

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 38 by Thugpreacha, posted 07-13-2019 10:13 AM Thugpreacha has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 41 by Thugpreacha, posted 07-13-2019 10:49 AM jar has responded

      
    Thugpreacha
    Member
    Posts: 13143
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.2


    Message 41 of 67 (857917)
    07-13-2019 10:49 AM
    Reply to: Message 40 by jar
    07-13-2019 10:27 AM


    Re: jars logic regarding a Creator
    jar writes:

    The fact is that I do believe but don't try to pretend that it is not illogical, unreasonable and irrational.

    I'll give you that. I can and have read much of what you say regarding the irrationality of Christian belief(basic CCoI version) in general. To wit:

    jar,addressing Stile writes:

    I would tend to agree with you that your position is the reasonable, rational and logical position.
    I happen to believe otherwise but certainly realize that my beliefs are unreasonable, irrational and illogical.

    Lets test them. How far out of the boat are you willing to walk?

    jar writes:

    Remember Phat, the Bible itself describes man, plain old human type man, correcting God. We've been over this more then once IIRC.
    The Bible itself describes God as unsure, insecure, frightened by the prospects of plain old humans, unable to defeat a plain old human even by using deceit and trickery...
    Why do you insist on placing the God YOU create above the God other folk create?


    I place the God whom I believe in above all else.

    jar writes:

    GOD, if GOD exists simply is complete.

    God is a little more specific yet still amorphous. You can talk about The Christian God or the Hebrew God or the Hindu Gods or the Islamic God but that doesn't tell us much at all since there is still no such unique specific thing.

    Then we get to god where there can be specificity. There is the god from Genesis 1 and the god from Genesis 2 and Ganesha and Thor and Allah and the god Faith markets and the god Spruel marketed and the god MacArthur marketed and the god you like and Coyote and Turtle and ...

    phat writes:

    Also, do you believe that God, as marketed by Christians, is an improvement on the earlier ideas?

    jar writes:

    Again, there is no God marketed by Christians but only gods.
    And no, I do not think the god most Christians market is an improvement on anything.


    What about the GOD (and the Jesus) that you market? Lets trot out the really tough questions!

    ringo claims that everything known and/or knowable about the Christian God and His Son Jesus Christ is contained within the book. Which would suggest that God (and Jesus) could never truly be alive within reality and within one's heart...were that true. So which is it? Which do you choose to believe? That God and Jesus are simply characters in a book. Tales of mythos told around campfires so that a traveling storyteller could earn a living? You always ask me how I can prove or describe what it means that Jesus is alive. What if I told you that it is as simple as embracing an admittedly illogical belief? How far out of the boat are you willing to walk?


    Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
    ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

    You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

    Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
    In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
    ~Stile


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 40 by jar, posted 07-13-2019 10:27 AM jar has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 42 by jar, posted 07-13-2019 10:56 AM Thugpreacha has responded
     Message 50 by ringo, posted 07-13-2019 12:08 PM Thugpreacha has not yet responded

      
    jar
    Member
    Posts: 31609
    From: Texas!!
    Joined: 04-20-2004
    Member Rating: 2.6


    Message 42 of 67 (857919)
    07-13-2019 10:56 AM
    Reply to: Message 41 by Thugpreacha
    07-13-2019 10:49 AM


    Re: jars logic regarding a Creator
    Phat writes:

    You always ask me how I can prove or describe what it means that Jesus is alive. What if I told you that it is as simple as embracing an admittedly illogical belief? How far out of the boat are you willing to walk?

    There you go making the same old mistake.

    No belief is evidence of anything except that someone believes. A belief that Jesus is alive has no real meaning unless you can explain what that even means.


    My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios � � My Website: My Website

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 41 by Thugpreacha, posted 07-13-2019 10:49 AM Thugpreacha has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 44 by Thugpreacha, posted 07-13-2019 11:32 AM jar has responded

      
    PaulK
    Member
    Posts: 15549
    Joined: 01-10-2003
    Member Rating: 2.9


    (1)
    Message 43 of 67 (857920)
    07-13-2019 11:01 AM
    Reply to: Message 39 by Thugpreacha
    07-13-2019 10:20 AM


    Re: jars logic regarding a Creator
    quote:

    Granted. Perhaps a valid line of questioning is to the motives as to why the books were written in the first place

    That is a question that must be settled on a book-for-book basis. And even then some books have major additions that need to be considered separately.

    quote:

    Have people really belived that they interacted with God and that Jesus was more than simply a prophet? Or were the motives less honorable?

    Obviously the OT authors had no view on Jesus at all. Many do not claim to have personally interacted with God. Most of them were promoting a view that they likely believed.

    quote:

    Personally I believe that there is a sort of ongoing spiritual war between Truth and Lies.

    If so, you don’t seem too careful about which side you are serving.


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 39 by Thugpreacha, posted 07-13-2019 10:20 AM Thugpreacha has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 45 by Thugpreacha, posted 07-13-2019 11:33 AM PaulK has responded

      
    Thugpreacha
    Member
    Posts: 13143
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.2


    Message 44 of 67 (857921)
    07-13-2019 11:32 AM
    Reply to: Message 42 by jar
    07-13-2019 10:56 AM


    Re: jars logic regarding a Creator
    jar writes:

    No belief is evidence of anything except that someone believes. A belief that Jesus is alive has no real meaning unless you can explain what that even means.

    If it were explainable, people would have no need for belief. They would simply accept or reject the facts. The book clearly suggests that not everyone will believe. It even suggests that a minority will actually believe and a majority will reject Christ and/or His message. You always claim that Christianity is more about what a person actually does than it is on what they believe, so you have your excuse around that argument. Perhaps God would show mercy to an atheist with no desire to accept Jesus but who dutifully and perhaps even joyfully clothed,fed, encouraged, and edified the people with no strings attached.

    Then again, perhaps God wants us to actually get to know His character...expressed to humans through a human.


    Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
    ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

    You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

    Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
    In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
    ~Stile


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 42 by jar, posted 07-13-2019 10:56 AM jar has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 49 by jar, posted 07-13-2019 11:59 AM Thugpreacha has acknowledged this reply

      
    Thugpreacha
    Member
    Posts: 13143
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.2


    Message 45 of 67 (857922)
    07-13-2019 11:33 AM
    Reply to: Message 43 by PaulK
    07-13-2019 11:01 AM


    Re: jars logic regarding a Creator
    Thugzy writes:

    Personally I believe that there is a sort of ongoing spiritual war between Truth and Lies.


    PaulK writes:


    If so, you don’t seem too careful about which side you are serving.

    how careful can we be? How do we really know which side is which?


    Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
    ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

    You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

    Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
    In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
    ~Stile


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 43 by PaulK, posted 07-13-2019 11:01 AM PaulK has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 46 by PaulK, posted 07-13-2019 11:54 AM Thugpreacha has acknowledged this reply

      
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