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Author Topic:   No Taxation without Representation.
jar
Member
Posts: 31062
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 3.7


Message 16 of 31 (856598)
07-01-2019 7:25 PM
Reply to: Message 15 by AZPaul3
07-01-2019 5:38 PM


AZPaul3 writes:

These are regressive taxes, meaning poorer people pay a greater % of their income in such tax then richer people for the same item at the same price.

Are poor people equally represented? Are there any barriers that might keep the poor or non-citizens that still must pay taxes and in fact pay a greater % of their income in taxes from having representation?


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

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AZPaul3
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Posts: 4258
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 3.7


Message 17 of 31 (856604)
07-01-2019 8:13 PM
Reply to: Message 16 by jar
07-01-2019 7:25 PM


Are poor people equally represented?

Of course not. Poor people cannot afford the cost of buying a congressmen let alone a senator, even on the state level.

Whether you are rich or poor, whether you vote or not, as a legal citizen you are represented, if not equally, in the halls of power. If you don't vote you just let others decide who that representative will be and if you're poor you pay less for that representation than an international corporation which may have many legislators, congressmen and senators on their payroll.

Illegals have no such representation officially. If you're a Democrat you kinda feel obligated to represent all in your district, even illegals, as a matter of public good. If you're a Republican then you will actively campaign against the public good when doing so favors your major donors.

As far as illegals go ... by paying (unrepresented for sure) sales and school and property taxes you likewise get the use of the public benefits like roads, schools, fire, police, emergency services and like that. In this way illegals are indeed paying a share of the public services they use.

And just by being here, legal or not, you are supposed to be subject to the benefits and restrictions of the US Constitution though the Trumpettes seem the think otherwise.


Eschew obfuscation. Habituate elucidation.

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Pressie
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Posts: 2074
From: Pretoria, SA
Joined: 06-18-2010
Member Rating: 2.7


Message 18 of 31 (856678)
07-02-2019 7:44 AM
Reply to: Message 11 by Taq
07-01-2019 12:20 PM


Taq writes:

In a normal economy, the cost of those taxes are dispersed to the whole community. While a renter doesn't directly pay property taxes, it is included in their rent. Higher property taxes equals higher rent. Higher tariffs equal higher costs for products at the store, even if the consumer is not directly paying the tariff.

In a normal economy, yes. Where I live 70% of the people do not pay rent or municipal taxes or anything. No form of income going into the local government, at all. What happens is that the paying 30% face paying for the rent electricity, etc. for the 70% who pay nothing at all. Coming election time, with 70% not paying for anything, we all know how that will go.
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Pressie
Member
Posts: 2074
From: Pretoria, SA
Joined: 06-18-2010
Member Rating: 2.7


Message 19 of 31 (856679)
07-02-2019 7:48 AM
Reply to: Message 13 by ringo
07-01-2019 3:05 PM


ringo writes:

I would say the opposite: anybody who pays taxes, directly or indirectly, should have representation. Illegal immigrants included

True in a normal economy. At local level, in my country, 70% of the people don't pay any taxes for local communities. They should not vote in local elections.

They do pay taxes indirect taxes on national level. They should vote nationally.

Edited by Pressie, : No reason given.


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 Message 21 by ringo, posted 07-02-2019 11:56 AM Pressie has responded

    
Heathen
Member
Posts: 1050
From: Brizzle
Joined: 09-20-2005


Message 20 of 31 (856680)
07-02-2019 8:18 AM
Reply to: Message 19 by Pressie
07-02-2019 7:48 AM


What is the reason that 70% do not pay any taxes?
This message is a reply to:
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ringo
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Posts: 16806
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 3.4


(1)
Message 21 of 31 (856716)
07-02-2019 11:56 AM
Reply to: Message 19 by Pressie
07-02-2019 7:48 AM


Pressie writes:

True in a normal economy. At local level, in my country, 70% of the people don't pay any taxes for local communities. They should not vote in local elections.
They do pay taxes indirect taxes on national level. They should vote nationally.


That's a distinction that has a lot of room for abuse. A lot of people could be disenfranchised because they don't pay "directly" enough in a given jurisdiction.

I'd rather give the vote to a thousand who don't "deserve" it than take it away from one who does.

Edited by ringo, : No reason given.


All that are in Hell, choose it. -- CS Lewis
That's just egregiously stupid. -- ringo

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 Message 19 by Pressie, posted 07-02-2019 7:48 AM Pressie has responded

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Pressie
Member
Posts: 2074
From: Pretoria, SA
Joined: 06-18-2010
Member Rating: 2.7


Message 22 of 31 (856816)
07-03-2019 7:58 AM
Reply to: Message 20 by Heathen
07-02-2019 8:18 AM


They don't work in the formal economy. No receipts, etc.
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Pressie
Member
Posts: 2074
From: Pretoria, SA
Joined: 06-18-2010
Member Rating: 2.7


Message 23 of 31 (856818)
07-03-2019 8:42 AM
Reply to: Message 20 by Heathen
07-02-2019 8:18 AM


heathen writes:

What is the reason that 70% do not pay any taxes?

Work in the informal sector.
This message is a reply to:
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Pressie
Member
Posts: 2074
From: Pretoria, SA
Joined: 06-18-2010
Member Rating: 2.7


Message 24 of 31 (856819)
07-03-2019 8:45 AM
Reply to: Message 21 by ringo
07-02-2019 11:56 AM


ringo writes:

That's a distinction that has a lot of room for abuse. A lot of people could be disenfranchised because they don't pay "directly" enough in a given jurisdiction.
I'd rather give the vote to a thousand who don't "deserve" it than take it away from one who does.

Actually, by taxing the small percentage law-abiding citizens who pay for things to breaking point only works up to a point. That point is when they run out of money to be able to give.
This message is a reply to:
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ringo
Member
Posts: 16806
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 3.4


(2)
Message 25 of 31 (856842)
07-03-2019 12:09 PM
Reply to: Message 24 by Pressie
07-03-2019 8:45 AM


Pressie writes:

Actually, by taxing the small percentage law-abiding citizens who pay for things to breaking point only works up to a point.


But we're not taxing only the law-abiding. We're also taxing the Al Capones. And we're also taxing the Pedros who forgot to check in at Customs when they crossed the border. The issue here is not levels of taxation; it's the fundamental democratic principle of no taxation without representation. It's one of the major principles that the US was founded on.

All that are in Hell, choose it. -- CS Lewis
That's just egregiously stupid. -- ringo

This message is a reply to:
 Message 24 by Pressie, posted 07-03-2019 8:45 AM Pressie has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 29 by Pressie, posted 07-04-2019 8:38 AM ringo has responded

  
Taq
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Posts: 7971
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 4.6


(3)
Message 26 of 31 (856860)
07-03-2019 2:30 PM
Reply to: Message 18 by Pressie
07-02-2019 7:44 AM


Pressie writes:

In a normal economy, yes. Where I live 70% of the people do not pay rent or municipal taxes or anything. No form of income going into the local government, at all. What happens is that the paying 30% face paying for the rent electricity, etc. for the 70% who pay nothing at all. Coming election time, with 70% not paying for anything, we all know how that will go.

This is a different situation than that faced by the American colonists. They were paying taxes and weren't allowed representation in English Parliament. I would presume you vote in elections, so you have representation. The argument was never for taking away the vote of those who didn't pay taxes. It was the exact opposite, giving the vote to people who do pay taxes.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 18 by Pressie, posted 07-02-2019 7:44 AM Pressie has responded

Replies to this message:
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Pressie
Member
Posts: 2074
From: Pretoria, SA
Joined: 06-18-2010
Member Rating: 2.7


Message 27 of 31 (856922)
07-04-2019 7:43 AM
Reply to: Message 26 by Taq
07-03-2019 2:30 PM


Sure, but it is the opposite of what I currently experience in my country. The small percentage of people who actually pay something (around 30%) are completely outvoted by the large percentage of people who don't pay anything or for anything (around 70%).

Edited by Pressie, : No reason given.

Edited by Pressie, : No reason given.


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Heathen
Member
Posts: 1050
From: Brizzle
Joined: 09-20-2005


Message 28 of 31 (856924)
07-04-2019 8:33 AM
Reply to: Message 23 by Pressie
07-03-2019 8:42 AM


You mean cash in hand jobs? menial jobs? zero hours contracts etc?

Surely these people should be allowed to vote for someone who may work to improve their employment situation? by creating more formal, better paid jobs?

otherwise you have an eternal underclass...

Edited by Heathen, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
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Pressie
Member
Posts: 2074
From: Pretoria, SA
Joined: 06-18-2010
Member Rating: 2.7


Message 29 of 31 (856925)
07-04-2019 8:38 AM
Reply to: Message 25 by ringo
07-03-2019 12:09 PM


ring writes:

But we're not taxing only the law-abiding.

In my country only the law-abiding are taxed. That's the problem. The percentage deciding to say "stuff that, nothing happens when not following the law" is growing every year. And all those people vote for people who decided that neither laws nor payment for anything would be important.

Edited by Pressie, : No reason given.

Edited by Pressie, : No reason given.


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 Message 25 by ringo, posted 07-03-2019 12:09 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
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ringo
Member
Posts: 16806
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 3.4


Message 30 of 31 (856959)
07-04-2019 12:12 PM
Reply to: Message 29 by Pressie
07-04-2019 8:38 AM


Pressie writes:

In my country only the law-abiding are taxed.


Al Capone should have moved there then.

All that are in Hell, choose it. -- CS Lewis
That's just egregiously stupid. -- ringo

This message is a reply to:
 Message 29 by Pressie, posted 07-04-2019 8:38 AM Pressie has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 31 by Pressie, posted 07-05-2019 6:10 AM ringo has acknowledged this reply

  
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