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Author | Topic: Did the Flood really happen? | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Tangle Member Posts: 9510 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.8 |
Juvenissun writes: Noah's Flood is a BIG issue. Only to a few fundamental Christians. Other Christians regard it as a myth and non-Christians have never heard of it.
It includes several major issues and many minor issue. The whole story is closely related to the whole Christian doctrine. So, the exploration HAS TO be restricted to one major (or even minor issue at a time). That is why most (if not all) talks about Noah's Flood are a total confusion. It really isn't very complicated at all, either a global flood occurred or it didn't. If you think it did, then I'm sure you have the evidence to prove it. So give it your best shot.
Do not ask about time, only talk about the possibility and mechanism of the global flood. People usually abandon this discussion even it is very focused. Ok, so you can't say when this flood was. That's a bad start. Are you disputing the normal dates of about 4,500 years ago? It does matter.
First, we must agree that a global flood is possible. Many things are possible. Personally I don't think a global flood is one of them, but I'm listening if you can prove it.
This is the seawater problem. Then, we must see how to make it possible. This is the land problem. There are a lot of problems. I think your biggest one is providing the evidence of a global flood at all.
Continental Aggregation: A tectonic process through which a continent on the earth becomes larger and larger. If you want to know more, then ask specific question. You have to show how this is relevant. This is a process that occurs over hundreds of millions of years so you see why it's important for you to say whether you agree with the 'normal' timings for this flood or not.Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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Tangle Member Posts: 9510 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.8 |
What has this got to do with a flood?
Your flood couldn't have been billions or even millions of years ago, people have only been around as modern H.sapiens for at most 200,000 years and your book has the flood only a few thousand years ago so what is the relevance of all this?Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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Tangle Member Posts: 9510 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.8 |
Juvenissun writes: I am talking about the possibility of the global flood. There has never been a global flood - ie a time when all the above water land mass on earth was quickly covered with water then uncovered again. There is some evidence that 3bn years ago most of the earth might have been covered in water, probably with small islands pushing through. The evidence is sparse and requires a lot of further work, but it's an interesting finding. That is not a flood, it's a waterworld and it's irrelevant to your biblical flood story.
I do not care about other noises. It doesn't matter what you care about, if you're going to attempt to show that there has been a global flood as written in your bible you're going to have to present the complete case not a tiny bit that you 'care about'.Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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Tangle Member Posts: 9510 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.8
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Juvenissun writes: At this stage, you either talk about the global flood, or you talk about Noah. Either one of them is complicated enough. Neither are complicated and they are the same thing - Noah's flood IS the global flood that you're not talking about.
To mix them, anyone would quickly get lost unless you can simply deny the whole thing (if so, you should not be here) We're not mixing anything, are you or are you not talking about Noah's flood? We're very used to talking about the flood, there's endless threads on it - just get on with it, you'll find us quite capable of keeping up with you so long as you don't carry on obfuscating like this.
OK, a water world, would all the questions about the global flood still be the same? Source of water? Basin of water? You can not run away from the problems just by changing the terms. First, the idea of a water world is not yet established, second those that are proposing it are not suggesting that the entire world was submerged, they imagine many islands - micro-continents - above the water. Third, as far as we know, the continent of Gwandano rose from the oceans as the earth's core cooled about half a billion years ago. There is no flood here nor anything in the supposed timescales of your flood.Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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Tangle Member Posts: 9510 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.8
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Juvenissun writes: This is a very ignorant statement. Supercontinent name Age (Ma) Period/Era Range CitationVaalbara 3,636—2,803 Eoarchean-Mesoarchean Ur 2,803—2,408 Mesoarchean-Siderian Kenorland 2,720—2,114 Neoarchean-Rhyacian Arctica 2,114—1,995 Rhyacian-Orosirian Atlantica 1,991—1,124 Orosirian-Stenian Columbia (Nuna) 1,820—1,350 Orosirian-Ectasian Rodinia 1,130—750 Stenian-Tonian Pannotia 633—573 Ediacaran Gondwana 596—578 Ediacaran Laurasia and Gondwana 472—451 Ordovician Pangaea 336—173 Carboniferous-Jurassic Supercontinent - Wikipedia There's a tradition of creationists coming here, making one line, un-evidenced assertions and arguing disingenuously. It would be great if you didn't turn out to be just another one of them. Make your argument properly in full, up front. Don't avoid questions, don't cherry pick, make your position clear and provide evidence for your claims. This is a science thread - if you continue this way, you'll be banned by the mods.Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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Tangle Member Posts: 9510 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.8 |
Juvennisun writes: We can have many theoretical models. There are an infinite number of batshit crazy ideas. These are not theoretical models. To build a model, you have to start with some facts that you can show evidentially may be related and relevant to a hypothesis.
The global flood could start with a theoretical model. No! You must start with facts relevant to a hypothesis. So far you haven't given us any evidence or even a timescale that would suggest a global flood. You have to show us the body before you claim Colonel Mustard in the library with a dagger.Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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Tangle Member Posts: 9510 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.8 |
Pollux writes: And when can we start seeing evidence for the Floode? My prediction is that Juvenissun will continue in this non-evidential, single sentence trolling manner, avoiding telling us his actual postion or putting his case. But wouldn't it be great if just one of these people decided to discuss this stuff intelligently, openly and honestly? Sadly, Juvenissun is yet another disingenuous young earth creationist. This is his profile from Christian Forums Geologist. A YEC but work with OE models. No contradiction at all.Fundamentalist. Build conceptual dynamic models juvenissun | Christian ForumsJe suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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Tangle Member Posts: 9510 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.8 |
Well who knows. He claims not to understand the flood geology essay so it seems likely he isn't. But I know an atheist who has a degree in Theology so such things can happen.
I just wish the bugger would be honest with us, but that doesn't seem to be a Christian trait. He probably thinks he's playing with devils so shouldn't play fair. Who knows what goes on in these loon's headsJe suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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Tangle Member Posts: 9510 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.8 |
Juvenissun writes: Of course Noah was there. But that is another question and you do not mix that with the current question of a global flood. There was one, and only one global flood in the history of the earth. There was only one flood and Noah was there, so we are, after all, talking about Noah's Flood, the one in the bible right? So I'm confused, when was this flood? Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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Tangle Member Posts: 9510 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.8
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Juvenissun writes: If you admit or accept that there was a global flood, then I will talk about when. Is this an adult science thread or am I back in the playground? So far you haven't presented any evidence of a global flood. How am I supposed to 'admit' a flood happened based on what you've said so far? Make your case. Why are you refusing to talk about when, when when is critical to it having happened? If you're looking for a flood in the geological record, it's best to know where to start. Even so, you say that we won't find this evidence and are claiming that - as far as I understand your strangely obtuse argument so far - you are talking of events possibly billions of years ago. But we know people have been around no more than quarter of a million years and the myth itself is purported to be only 4,000 years ago. You describe yourself (elsewhere) as a YEC. Don't you think it's time you stopped this obfuscation and honestly put forward your whole case so we can have a grown up discussion about it?Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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Tangle Member Posts: 9510 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.8 |
Juvenissun writes: So you like to talk about time more than the Flood. Fine. The timing of Noah's flood is critical to detecting evidence for it. I'm not talking about time, I'm asking you to tell us where in the geological and archaeological record we should look for it.
First, we need to consider the 600 years age of Noah. What do you think about that? You have to accept something in the whole story, so it can proceed. Otherwise, you are welcome to claim the whole thing is a fake. Then you can leave this thread. I don't have to accept anything. You have to make your case, then we can discuss it. That's the way these things work.Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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Tangle Member Posts: 9510 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.8
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Juvenissun writes: You do have show where you stand in a discussion. Otherwise, what am I going to talk to you? I'm an atheist so of course I see the entirety of the story as myth. What does that have to do with you telling us what your case for the Flood is?
I don't have to convince you Noah's Flood did happen. Then you shouldn't be here wasting our time - the title of this thread is "did the Flood really happen?" and "the Flood" here is Noah's Flood as in the bible story.
What you should say is: I don't believe Noah's story "because...", then I can focus my idea on that. I do not have to do that, the burden of proof lies with the positive position - "the Flood happened". If you think that the Flood happened, support your case and I'll happily join in; but first you have to tell us your position. Why so shy?
I walked into this thread in a same way. I pointed out errors suggested by you people. That means, you have said something first which I don't agree. It is you who attacked the Bible message first, then I defended it. If you do not attack, then I don't have to talk you. This is a recurring phenomenon. YECs come here and obfuscate. What are you trying to hide? Just make your argument, without that we just flounder around talking inanities and silly irrelevant details. Is that your intent - refuse to take on arguments you know you can't win so faff about elsewhere with irrelevancies? The elephant in the room is dating, tell us when this Flood happened and your evidence for that and we can discuss it. This is not a small, tangental point, it's core to this whole debate - as of course you know, which is presumably why you are refusing to discuss it. Which is odd, as you believe that the earth is young - which normally means <10,000, but can be more or less because YECs invent various positions. So what is yours?
You said: All that is false. Then I reply: Why? It is false, the story is quite obviously myth and parable, probably never meant to be taken literally at all. The arguments have been rehearsed here for a decade or more. The new thing is that you've come here and said they're not false but refuse to expose your hand. We do not know what it is that you believe to be true or what we're arguing about. Are you just another troll - it seems so?Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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Tangle Member Posts: 9510 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.8
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Phat writes: What I'm trying to get him to see is the different thought process demanded in our Science Forums. Try harder. (But I'm not expecting him to suddenly become honest and actually give us his argument - if he has one.) Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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Tangle Member Posts: 9510 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.8 |
Juvenissun writes: I never bother if you are a Christian or not. Then why ask?
I was and am talking to you about science. It would be really great if you would start. So far all you've said demonstrates that you know nothing of the scientific method and process. I'll give you a couple of pointers. You need to start by telling us fully what your claim about the flood is. (A critical point is when.) You then have to present your evidence for it. Evidence is not coulds and ad hoc individual rationalisations it's a series of empirical observations that build to an explanation of a whole. It needs to include ALL the available observations not a couple of random points.
So far, I only see I am trying to talk about science. Where have you said anything about science? Do you know what a granite is? Do you know it is related to the global flood? I'm going to take this at face value and accept that you really do think that you're doing science here rather than just trolling. So it's clear that you do not know what the scientific method is. If you think the fact that there is granite here on earth demonstrates a flood you have to explain fully why. Asking me if I know what granite is, is not a scientific argument for anything.
Steps of the Scientific Method I'm not asking for a PhD dissertation, I just need to know what your story actually is and the arguments and evidence supporting it. Just lay it on the table and we can pick somewhere to start. Edited by Tangle, : No reason given.Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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Tangle Member Posts: 9510 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.8 |
Juvenissun writes: Why don't you tell me something about science?For example, what is a "flood"? Can you do that? I wonder why we bother with people like you? I gave you the benefit of the doubt, I asked you politely to outline your case and showed you why it was necessary to do it, but it turns out that you are indeed yet another crackpot, fundie troll. Perhaps others here have a better developed sense of masochism; bye for now.Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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