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Author Topic:   Did the Flood really happen?
Percy
Member
Posts: 19808
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 2.4


Message 1576 of 1616 (869702)
01-04-2020 11:38 AM
Reply to: Message 1557 by Faith
01-02-2020 3:52 PM


Re: Land sediments sandwiched between marine sediments
Faith writes:

No, all that is what is assumed, based only on the ToE. If you believe against all reason that each layer of sediment represents a time period of millions of years then of course you are going to interpret some of it in terms of their land origin. In reality they were all deposited by the Flood water no matter what their original location.

You're engaging in fact-free discussion. All the objections to geology take the form of incredulity. All the claims of a flood take the form of dubious and unsupported assertions.

If you think people accept geology against all reason, you need to provide those reasons.

--Percy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1557 by Faith, posted 01-02-2020 3:52 PM Faith has not yet responded

  
RAZD
Member
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004
Member Rating: 2.5


Message 1577 of 1616 (869704)
01-04-2020 1:42 PM
Reply to: Message 1568 by Faith
01-03-2020 10:38 PM


Layers build slowly over time ... lots of time
You're missing the point, RAZD. The kind of rock doesn't matter, the problem is that there is a rock there at all where supposedly there was once a place where there were living things.

whoop topic change ...

Why on your bizarro world is that a problem?

The point has always been that there were living things -- the sources of all those fossils -- on what were once submerged marine environments. Sediments fall down through the water and cover the ocean floor (their type depending on how far from shore they are and their settling rates). Those sediments gradually build up on the ocean/sea/lake floors and the living animals hardly notice as they move about and grow, but the shells and skeletal remains gradually get buried. Year after year, decade after decade, century after century, millennia after millennia ...

This is a continually ongoing process, it can be observed today, the rate can be measured today and compared to the rates of deposition for ancient sedimentary rocks ... and they are comparable (that, btw, is a process that has been replicated)

Long after these sediments have fallen and been themselves buried the lithification process turns them to stone/rock.

IE - the sediment build up around the dead remains which then get lithified encasing the dead remains. Making time capsules of the evidence of life at that time in the past where "there was once a place where there were living things" walking the earth.

Message 1570: ... The point is that you can't have a time period that is completely occupied by a rock.

Why on your bizarro world would you think that?

This is part of the reason that the rocks are not the time periods. The time periods are arbitrary delineages of the past. Rocks that were laid down as sediments during those arbitrary time periods become rocks of those periods. The top of the rock/s designated as rocks from time "period A" then form the base for the further deposition to be called rocks from "period B" and so on.

This is a continuous process of sediment build-up, life forms living on the surface shifting up as the sediment builds up, leaving behind the remnants of dead life. Life from "period A" continues on the surfaces of the sediments, and when the time passes that the deposition now is called "period B" the life is still living on the surface. These "period B" sediments don't cap off "period A" trapping and condensing it ... to explain further, let's replicate this with an

EXPERIMENT:

  1. Take an aquarium
  2. Place it outside (where it can overflow)
  3. Fill it with water
  4. Take a handful of dirt (or diatomaceous earth)
  5. Sprinkle it over the water
  6. Let it settle
  7. repeat steps 4 through 7 until the aquarium is full of wet dirt
  8. Take a ruler and a sharpie and draw lines at 1" levels
  9. Mark them A, B, C, etc from the bottom up
  10. Observe the results:

  • How did layers of different size particles form in the aquarium?
  • Is it a repeating pattern of coarse to fine particles in those layers?
  • How did the sets of coarse and fine particle layers come to be inside layer A? layer B? etc
  • How did these sediment particles come to "occupy" layer A? layer B? etc
  • Do the layers A, B, C, etc of particles represent the passage of time?
  • Do the different paired layers of fine particles and coarse particles represent the passage of time?
  • If the fine particle layers represented winters, and the coarse layers represent summers, how many "years" would have passed to fill the aquarium?

Time, and simple geological processes, can do amazing things while seeming to be doing nothing.

Enjoy

Edited by RAZD, : .


we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
Rebel•American•Zen•Deist
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This message is a reply to:
 Message 1568 by Faith, posted 01-03-2020 10:38 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1578 by Faith, posted 01-04-2020 8:49 PM RAZD has responded
 Message 1579 by Faith, posted 01-04-2020 9:40 PM RAZD has responded

  
Faith 
Suspended Member
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 1578 of 1616 (869715)
01-04-2020 8:49 PM
Reply to: Message 1577 by RAZD
01-04-2020 1:42 PM


Re: Layers build slowly over time ... lots of time
If a rock replaces either a landscape or a waterscape, whether it takes overnight or a million years, it displaces living things. They die. They do not pass on their genes let alone evolve into something else.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1577 by RAZD, posted 01-04-2020 1:42 PM RAZD has responded

Replies to this message:
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Faith 
Suspended Member
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 1579 of 1616 (869717)
01-04-2020 9:40 PM
Reply to: Message 1577 by RAZD
01-04-2020 1:42 PM


Re: Layers build slowly over time ... lots of time
Take an aquarium
Place it outside (where it can overflow)
Fill it with water
Take a handful of dirt (or diatomaceous earth)
Sprinkle it over the water
Let it settle
repeat steps 4 through 7 until the aquarium is full of wet dirt
Take a ruler and a sharpie and draw lines at 1" levels
Mark them A, B, C, etc from the bottom up
Observe the results:

First result, if there was anything living the aquarium when you started this process, it died long before it was completely "full of wet dirt."

How did layers of different size particles form in the aquarium?
Is it a repeating pattern of coarse to fine particles in those layers?
How did the sets of coarse and fine particle layers come to be inside layer A? layer B? etc
How did these sediment particles come to "occupy" layer A? layer B? etc
Do the layers A, B, C, etc of particles represent the passage of time?
Do the different paired layers of fine particles and coarse particles represent the passage of time?
If the fine particle layers represented winters, and the coarse layers represent summers, how many "years" would have passed to fill the aquarium?

What on earth do you think you are trying to prove by this? My point has been that the sediment/rock will DISPLACE LIVING THINGS in this "time period" whether landscape or marinescape, and obviously that is exactly what would happen. They'd get buried and possibly fossilize; but they'd no longer be living and passing on their genes.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1577 by RAZD, posted 01-04-2020 1:42 PM RAZD has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1580 by vimesey, posted 01-05-2020 1:48 AM Faith has responded
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vimesey
Member
Posts: 1100
From: Birmingham, England
Joined: 09-21-2011
Member Rating: 2.7


(2)
Message 1580 of 1616 (869722)
01-05-2020 1:48 AM
Reply to: Message 1579 by Faith
01-04-2020 9:40 PM


Re: Layers build slowly over time ... lots of time
What on earth do you think you are trying to prove by this? My point has been that the sediment/rock will DISPLACE LIVING THINGS in this "time period" whether landscape or marinescape, and obviously that is exactly what would happen. They'd get buried and possibly fossilize; but they'd no longer be living and passing on their genes.

They’d be living and passing on their genes on top of (or near to) the ongoing surface of the earth.

A good way to think about this, is to think about Roman villas and other remains in Britain. (If you want to watch a programme about this, see if you can access something called Time Team, which is a series of fun documentaries about archaeological digs in Britain - nothing too heavy, but enjoyable and interesting).

The villas and other remains were obviously enough built and inhabited by humans in Britain a couple of thousand years ago. Today, they are most commonly found buried beneath a couple of metres or so of soil/mud/sand etc. We have an accreting later of soil/mud/sand burying human stuff that was on the surface a couple of thousand years ago.

The obvious thing to point out is that in the intervening couple of thousand years, humans (and other plant and animal life) have continued to live on and occupy the surface of the land in question. The accreting new surface doesn’t prevent life continuing. (Indeed, one of the most common areas Time Team dig up is a farmer’s field, the very opposite of something which prevents life continuing). People and critters continue to live above the previous layers of soil/mud/sand etc on which they previously lived.

In millions of years, it is possible, as the layers in question get buried deeper and become lithified, that a lot of this stuff gets fossilised in the process - and then in a few million years more, it gets exposed for people to discover. But whilst all this is going on, the earth has a whole series of new surfaces being created (as is the case with the surface of Britain since Roman times, burying the buildings and other stuff, over time) upon which life continues.

Life doesn’t lie down and wait to be covered by the accretions soil/mud/sand etc - it walks on top of it. This stuff doesn’t drop down in billions of tons worth of quantities in seconds flat (mud slides and volcanic eruptions etc aside) - it accretes really slowly, over time. Does that help with following what the science says ?


Could there be any greater conceit, than for someone to believe that the universe has to be simple enough for them to be able to understand it ?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1579 by Faith, posted 01-04-2020 9:40 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1581 by Faith, posted 01-05-2020 1:57 AM vimesey has responded
 Message 1583 by Faith, posted 01-05-2020 2:03 AM vimesey has responded

  
Faith 
Suspended Member
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 1581 of 1616 (869723)
01-05-2020 1:57 AM
Reply to: Message 1580 by vimesey
01-05-2020 1:48 AM


Re: Layers build slowly over time ... lots of time
It's a ROCK, vimesey. At some point it is a ROCK. There is no landscape there for them to live in, it's a ROCK. It is NOW a rock in a deep column of rocks. You actually think anything was living on the surface of any of them? You guys are not thinking it through.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1580 by vimesey, posted 01-05-2020 1:48 AM vimesey has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1582 by vimesey, posted 01-05-2020 2:01 AM Faith has responded

  
vimesey
Member
Posts: 1100
From: Birmingham, England
Joined: 09-21-2011
Member Rating: 2.7


Message 1582 of 1616 (869724)
01-05-2020 2:01 AM
Reply to: Message 1581 by Faith
01-05-2020 1:57 AM


Re: Layers build slowly over time ... lots of time
What the science says is that it becomes a rock, after it gets buried underneath a whole series of new layers of surface, and more and more weight and heat and pressure gets placed upon it, until eventually it gets turned into rock (ie lithified). It only becomes rock long after it gets buried beneath a series of new surfaces. Science doesn’t say it starts off as rock. Does that help ?

Could there be any greater conceit, than for someone to believe that the universe has to be simple enough for them to be able to understand it ?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1581 by Faith, posted 01-05-2020 1:57 AM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
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Faith 
Suspended Member
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 1583 of 1616 (869725)
01-05-2020 2:03 AM
Reply to: Message 1580 by vimesey
01-05-2020 1:48 AM


Re: Layers build slowly over time ... lots of time
Yes humans and animals continue to live on top of the buried villas, or the buried towns or whatever, but remember the geo column is a stack of rocks and the next rock is going to bury them too. No, you are not going to get a stack of straight flat slabs of rock with the villa in one of them. Do you really think that?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1580 by vimesey, posted 01-05-2020 1:48 AM vimesey has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1585 by vimesey, posted 01-05-2020 2:16 AM Faith has responded

  
Faith 
Suspended Member
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 1584 of 1616 (869726)
01-05-2020 2:06 AM
Reply to: Message 1582 by vimesey
01-05-2020 2:01 AM


Re: Layers build slowly over time ... lots of time
You are not going to get a straight flat slab of rock lithified under tons of dirt, that is then going to become just one straight flat slab of rock in a whole stack of straight flat slabs or rock. You are truly not thinking. Straight and flat? Under tons of loose dirt? Loose dirt that doesn't itself lithify? Or if it lithifies isn't going to be straight and flat. What are you guys thinking? You just are NOT thinking. You have to end up with a deep stack of STRAIGHT, FLAT SLABS of rock that extend for thousands of square miles, many of homogeneous sediments, all sandstone or all limestone or all shale etc.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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vimesey
Member
Posts: 1100
From: Birmingham, England
Joined: 09-21-2011
Member Rating: 2.7


Message 1585 of 1616 (869727)
01-05-2020 2:16 AM
Reply to: Message 1583 by Faith
01-05-2020 2:03 AM


Re: Layers build slowly over time ... lots of time
The rocks in the geological column are a sequence of former surfaces which became rock (lithified) a long time after they got buried beneath a whole sequence of new surfaces. They weren’t rock when they were surfaces, or recently buried - that process took millions of years. This is part of what you will need to process, in order to understand what the geological column represents - it’s a way of describing and classifying processes which are slow, gradual and take an enormous amount of time.

The geological column is not a stack of rocks which appeared fully formed out of the sky. It’s a description of the sequence in which the surface layers in a particular area accreted on top of each other, got buried over millions of years, and then got lithified through pressure and heat, over further millions of years.

Rocks don’t bury the geological column - new surfaces do, which become rocks millions of years later.


Could there be any greater conceit, than for someone to believe that the universe has to be simple enough for them to be able to understand it ?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1583 by Faith, posted 01-05-2020 2:03 AM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1587 by Faith, posted 01-05-2020 2:36 AM vimesey has responded

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 16211
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.1


Message 1586 of 1616 (869728)
01-05-2020 2:23 AM
Reply to: Message 1578 by Faith
01-04-2020 8:49 PM


Re: Layers build slowly over time ... lots of time
quote:
If a rock replaces either a landscape or a waterscape, whether it takes overnight or a million years, it displaces living things.

No, it doesn’t because there is nothing living there when it becomes rock. Everything is living on the surface or closer to it. We’ve been through this. You know it.

Really what is the point of this idiocy? What we we supposed to think? That you are mentally ill is the kindest reaction possible.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1578 by Faith, posted 01-04-2020 8:49 PM Faith has not yet responded

  
Faith 
Suspended Member
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 1587 of 1616 (869729)
01-05-2020 2:36 AM
Reply to: Message 1585 by vimesey
01-05-2020 2:16 AM


Re: Layers build slowly over time ... lots of time
The rocks in the geological column are a sequence of former surfaces which became rock (lithified) a long time after they got buried beneath a whole sequence of new surfaces.

Do you actually think that makes sense? A "sequence of surfaces?" You mean like what we now see as the surfaces of the strata? But that's utter and complete nonsense. A new "surface" would be just a dusting of dirt, then inches, then feet, and NOT STRAIGHT AND FLAT, why would it EVER be straight and flat? YOU ARE NOT THINKING. This is all impossible stuff you are pretending is real when it cannot possibly be real. We hardly ever see anything straight and flat in the surface of the earth, it's all lumpy and mixed and hilly and not one sediment and I don't know how you are convincing yourself of this stuff but obviously you really just don't want to know that it really is impossible cuz golly that might show that what I'm saying is true, you absolutely cannot get the geological column out of the time periods scenarios.

They weren’t rock when they were surfaces, or recently buried - that process took millions of years.

"Millions of years" hides every unpleasant reality doesn't it? There is no such thing as a "surface" that is going to become straight and flat like those in the geological column by the means you are describing. And I don't see why you can't see it, so I just keep saying you aren't thinking, that's the only explanation. You are trying to get straight flat slabs of mostly homogeneous sediments out of a mixed mess of dirt.

This is part of what you will need to process, in order to understand what the geological column represents - it’s a way of describing and classifying processes which are slow, gradual and take an enormous amount of time.

And are simply impossible. Your enormous amount of time isn't going to turn a lumpy mess of dirt into straight flat mostly homogeneous sedimentary rocks that extend for thousands of square miles. And this is what YOU need to process but won't. Haven't you ever really LOOKED AT the layers close up in, say, perhaps pictures of the Grand Canyon? Many of them have KNIFE-EDGE straight contacts with the DIFFERENT kinds of rock above and below. No no no no no, your scenario is impossible.

The geological column is not a stack of rocks which appeared fully formed out of the sky. It’s a description of the sequence in which the surface layers in a particular area accreted on top of each other, got buried over millions of years, and then got lithified through pressure and heat, over further millions of years.

Unbelievable. I guess anything is possible in Evo Fantasyland.

Rocks don’t bury the geological column - new surfaces do, which become rocks millions of years later.

There is no such tghing as a "surface" in loose dirt of the sort that ends up a knife-edge straight contact line with another kind of sediment. They call it "science" so that's why you believe it? No need to actually think it through if you already know it's "science" I guess.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1585 by vimesey, posted 01-05-2020 2:16 AM vimesey has responded

Replies to this message:
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jar
Member
Posts: 32523
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.1


Message 1588 of 1616 (869733)
01-05-2020 8:44 AM
Reply to: Message 1584 by Faith
01-05-2020 2:06 AM


Basics Faith, learn the basics.
Faith writes:

You are not going to get a straight flat slab of rock lithified under tons of dirt, that is then going to become just one straight flat slab of rock in a whole stack of straight flat slabs or rock.

But once again reality points out that you simply ignore the evidence.

The Geologic column is not just straight flat slabs of rock and you have been shown the actual evidence to support that fact and simply refuse to acknowledge truth or reality.


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
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vimesey
Member
Posts: 1100
From: Birmingham, England
Joined: 09-21-2011
Member Rating: 2.7


Message 1589 of 1616 (869738)
01-05-2020 12:03 PM
Reply to: Message 1587 by Faith
01-05-2020 2:36 AM


Re: Layers build slowly over time ... lots of time
In addition to jar’s extremely useful reminder as to the position in reality, you need to remember as well that the pressure which results in the lithification is immense, and massively compresses the volume of the material which eventually forms the rock. This serves to even out a lot of the lumps and bumps you’re referring to.

And you need to remember too that sedimentary rock is formed from the surfaces of relatively flat landscapes - plains, beaches, water beds etc - hilly and mountainous terrain is generally formed of rock already, at the time it’s at the surface.

Geology is a fascinatingly complex picture, and I envy those lucky enough to make its study their job. But the principles underlying much of it are fairly straightforward for non-professionals like me to grasp, in outline at least.


Could there be any greater conceit, than for someone to believe that the universe has to be simple enough for them to be able to understand it ?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1587 by Faith, posted 01-05-2020 2:36 AM Faith has not yet responded

  
RAZD
Member
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004
Member Rating: 2.5


Message 1590 of 1616 (869741)
01-05-2020 1:18 PM
Reply to: Message 1579 by Faith
01-04-2020 9:40 PM


Re: Layers build slowly over time ... lots of time
See Message 1591 answer/s to Message 1578

Enjoy

Edited by RAZD, : .


we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
Rebel•American•Zen•Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)

This message is a reply to:
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