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Author Topic:   Did the Flood really happen?
Percy
Member
Posts: 22388
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.2


Message 1141 of 2370 (860354)
08-07-2019 8:06 AM
Reply to: Message 1100 by Faith
08-06-2019 10:02 AM


Re: Patchwork Quilt Geological Column/s
Faith writes:
Now you're saying almost all plant and animal life would survive that defacing? Magic water indeed!
Where are you getting this?
He's getting it from your very own words. First back in Message 1072 you said that the whole surface of the land would be defaced, presumably killing everything. You also said that when the rain stopped the deposition of sediments would begin. Thus, everything was dead and presumably on the sea bottom, so all sediments should be atop all dead life, which became fossils.
In Message 1078 you rejected that characterization, asking JonF how he got the idea that all life would be destroyed before sedimentation began, and now here you are reversing yourself yet again and endorsing what you originally said:
...the vast majority must have been killed in the early stages.
Moving on:
And I still can't make sense out of this:
first layer and each subsequent layer would overly all the fossils.
I assume you mean "overlie," but I still don't get it.
He meant "overlay," but "overlie" works too. He means that if all life died before deposition began, why isn't life at the bottom of the geologic column beneath all the strata? Why is it all mixed in to the strata? And not just mixed in, but mixed in in a very specific way. Why is life sorted into specific strata, with no Cambrian life in Cretaceous layers and vice-versa, and also sorted with increasing difference from modern forms with increasing geologic depth?
But we never get answers to these questions. Questions like this are ignored, even though their answers are critical to showing the Flood was a real event.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1100 by Faith, posted 08-06-2019 10:02 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1144 by Faith, posted 08-07-2019 8:56 AM Percy has replied
 Message 1146 by Faith, posted 08-07-2019 9:01 AM Percy has replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22388
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.2


Message 1142 of 2370 (860356)
08-07-2019 8:13 AM
Reply to: Message 1080 by Faith
08-05-2019 5:41 PM


Re: Geological Column/ Time Scale is Over and Done With
Faith writes:
It's only right to put in a little effort to understand what people are saying when it isn't immediately clear.
Your history is one of rarely making yourself clear, of frequently reversing yourself, and of never admitting error. People put effort into understanding those who have a history of truth and accuracy. That isn't you. Your usual response to people's rejection of your nonsense is to double down on it, like that the Gulf of Mexico is not a sea (I'm not reintroducing that topic here - it should be discussed over at The Gulf of Mexico is Not a Sea).
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1080 by Faith, posted 08-05-2019 5:41 PM Faith has not replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 1143 of 2370 (860358)
08-07-2019 8:21 AM
Reply to: Message 1139 by Percy
08-07-2019 7:26 AM


Re: Geological Column/ Time Scale is Over and Done With
Understanding basic concepts of geology such as that time periods are not strata should prove crucial to showing the Flood really happened, so it should matter to you. Correct use of terminology will make your ideas much more clear. I encourage you to care much more about getting things right.
You don't get it and every post of yours this morning is a gigantic headache to me because you don't get it. It is not a matter of my
"getting things right," or a matter of learning the "correct" terminology: I HAVE A DIFFERENT POINT OF VIEW, and the time periods ARE strata. There is no such thing as a time period in my view. PLEASE STOP INSISTING THAT YOUR OWN PARADIGM IS "GETTING THINGS RIGHT" and trying to force me to accept it. There are always going to be problems with communication between people who hold different paradigms.
It would be better if you'd address my Message 1134 instead of lecturing me on how I have to use the establishment point of view.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1139 by Percy, posted 08-07-2019 7:26 AM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1190 by Percy, posted 08-08-2019 1:59 PM Faith has not replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 1144 of 2370 (860362)
08-07-2019 8:56 AM
Reply to: Message 1141 by Percy
08-07-2019 8:06 AM


Re: Patchwork Quilt Geological Column/s
"Overlie" is correct, "overlay" is wrong though most frequently used.
Dead creatures would have been washed into the water where they got sorted.
I assumed all that rain would have denuded the land but maybe not completely since I know some creatures did survive until later in the building of the strata..

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1141 by Percy, posted 08-07-2019 8:06 AM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1148 by JonF, posted 08-07-2019 9:26 AM Faith has not replied
 Message 1192 by Percy, posted 08-08-2019 2:07 PM Faith has not replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22388
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.2


Message 1145 of 2370 (860364)
08-07-2019 8:58 AM
Reply to: Message 1101 by Faith
08-06-2019 10:07 AM


Re: Basics Faith, basics.
Faith writes:
I interpret that diagram to show one tectonic disturbance that turned the original horizontal strata on their side and removed them to their current location with part above the sea level line and the rest beneath it.
If you understood geologic diagrams you would understand that this one shows three tectonic sequences:
You give the Old Earth interpretation,...
No, I follow the evidence, which shows three tectonic sequences, and I provided them for you.
...which only shows that you don't get what I'm trying to describe for you to illustrate it,...
Please continue describing your vision. I will draw what you describe. I just have to make sense of it first.
...about how the originally horizontal strata had to fall into their current position,...
Fall into what? What created the empty space into which they fell? Removing the horizontal strata from the diagram does create empty space, but you must describe where the horizontal strata went. They can't just disappear into thin air. It is this that I'm waiting for you to describe.
Just a guess: are you perhaps thinking of a sliding or sloughing off of strata from the slopes of Snowdon?
...which would not have taken hundreds of millions of years.
Sure, falling can happen rapidly. Where do you see evidence of anything having fallen in that diagram. In the meantime, here's the diagram again with the three areas of tectonism/erosion/deposition circled. How does the Flood account for this:











The three circled areas from left to right are shown in these closeups:






How does the Flood explain this?
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1101 by Faith, posted 08-06-2019 10:07 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1147 by Faith, posted 08-07-2019 9:06 AM Percy has replied
 Message 1169 by Faith, posted 08-07-2019 6:47 PM Percy has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 1146 of 2370 (860365)
08-07-2019 9:01 AM
Reply to: Message 1141 by Percy
08-07-2019 8:06 AM


Re: Patchwork Quilt Geological Column/s
I did not say that when the rain stopped that's when deposition of the sediments would begin. Quote me.
I also don't assume that everything was killed though the land was pretty well scoured. Since that is the case it has to be that it wasn't completely scoured.
The vast majority killed in the early stages, yes.
we've got a lot of water carrying a lot of stuff. why do you assume the dead creatures would somehow just lie down on the land surface.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1141 by Percy, posted 08-07-2019 8:06 AM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1152 by JonF, posted 08-07-2019 9:39 AM Faith has not replied
 Message 1193 by Percy, posted 08-08-2019 2:26 PM Faith has not replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 1147 of 2370 (860366)
08-07-2019 9:06 AM
Reply to: Message 1145 by Percy
08-07-2019 8:58 AM


Re: Basics Faith, basics.
If you understood geologic diagrams you would understand that this one shows three tectonic sequences:
NONSENSE, THAT IS HISTORICAL GEOLOGY, IT IS NOT MY PARADIGM. There are three AREAS of disturbance, there is no particular reason to assign them to different events, one major tectonic event could account for them all.
And I still think YOU don't understand this diagram. I don't think you understand that it was originally those straight horizontal strata ON TOP OF THE ISLAND, that tilted just as you illustrated it, though you don't seem to have any idea why, and became the short tilted strata along the top of the island from left to right with the rest of their lengths beneath the island. That's a lot of disturbance just to get repositioned, it's really hard to fit three separate tectonic events into that picture, certainly at least unnecessary.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1145 by Percy, posted 08-07-2019 8:58 AM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1194 by Percy, posted 08-08-2019 2:45 PM Faith has replied

  
JonF
Member (Idle past 167 days)
Posts: 6174
Joined: 06-23-2003


Message 1148 of 2370 (860367)
08-07-2019 9:26 AM
Reply to: Message 1144 by Faith
08-07-2019 8:56 AM


Re: Patchwork Quilt Geological Column/s
Dead creatures would have been washed into the water where they got sorted.
So they all got put aside in bins with neat copperplate labels of when they could be taken out and deposited?
No matter how much water you throw at it, they could not be sorted in the order we see without magic.
Don't forget the simultaneous sorting of radioactive isotopes and daughter products. Much much harder than merely sorting bones. (No matter how you interpret the patterns of such isotopes with depth, the pattern exists).
Those are Iran's ultra-high-speed centrifuges for separating uranium 235 from uranium 238. They had 19,000 of them, and that's what it takes to sort isotopes. How many of these installations did the fludde build?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1144 by Faith, posted 08-07-2019 8:56 AM Faith has not replied

  
JonF
Member (Idle past 167 days)
Posts: 6174
Joined: 06-23-2003


Message 1149 of 2370 (860368)
08-07-2019 9:29 AM
Reply to: Message 1125 by JonF
08-06-2019 4:34 PM


Re: Patchwork Quilt Geological Column/s
I didn't say it couldn't be imagined, what I said is that LOCAL FLOODS don't provide a basis for imagining it.
So can it be imagined? Especially based on physics, chemistry, hydrodynamic, and geology?
THis is a critical point, Faith, How do you respond?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1125 by JonF, posted 08-06-2019 4:34 PM JonF has not replied

  
JonF
Member (Idle past 167 days)
Posts: 6174
Joined: 06-23-2003


Message 1150 of 2370 (860369)
08-07-2019 9:32 AM
Reply to: Message 1108 by Faith
08-06-2019 11:33 AM


Re: What is a sea anyway?
The evidence is on the provided cross sections. {Message 1070}
I don't see how that disproves sedimentation in the Gulf of Mexico. Please explain.
ABE I note the fourth image is of West Texas TexLibris | UT Libraries
So, there's no explanation. Jus pictures.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1108 by Faith, posted 08-06-2019 11:33 AM Faith has not replied

  
JonF
Member (Idle past 167 days)
Posts: 6174
Joined: 06-23-2003


Message 1151 of 2370 (860370)
08-07-2019 9:35 AM
Reply to: Message 1073 by Faith
08-05-2019 4:20 PM


Re: Geological Column/ Time Scale is Over and Done With
Why don't you just try to figure out why it's not sea floor and what I mean by that?
This isn't a game show. It's your claim, you defend it.
My money is on unthinking knee-jerk reaction in a vain attempt to avoid having to address the issue.
Called it. Unthinking knee-jerk reaction in a vain attempt to avoid having to address the issue.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1073 by Faith, posted 08-05-2019 4:20 PM Faith has not replied

  
JonF
Member (Idle past 167 days)
Posts: 6174
Joined: 06-23-2003


(1)
Message 1152 of 2370 (860371)
08-07-2019 9:39 AM
Reply to: Message 1146 by Faith
08-07-2019 9:01 AM


Re: Patchwork Quilt Geological Column/s
did not say that when the rain stopped that's when deposition of the sediments would begin. Quote me.
Message 1072
quote:
The whole surface of the land would be so defaced just from the forty days and nights of rain it would be unrecognizable and then the strata piled on top of it would further erase any recognizable remains.
"And then" strongly implies nothing significant in between.
"The strata piled on top of it would further erase any recognizable remains" doesn't sound like "picking up and filing for later". It clearly means the strata covered the remains.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1146 by Faith, posted 08-07-2019 9:01 AM Faith has not replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22388
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.2


Message 1153 of 2370 (860388)
08-07-2019 11:17 AM
Reply to: Message 1103 by Faith
08-06-2019 10:16 AM


Re: Basics Faith, basics.
Faith writes:
Leonardo thought the sea floor had been raised,...
Not just Leonardo. From the beginning geologists have believed that sea floor has been raised. Everyone here but you believes sea floor has been raised.
...I do not.
Why not? Please explain how sediments deposited by the flood can be uplifted, but sea floor cannot. How does tectonism within the Earth know which is which? How did your Flood sweep up all life across the entire Earth then put it back in the same sediments it came from, never depositing a giraffe with trilobites or a dimetrodon with whales or a dinosaur with modern mammals?
I think the sea creatures were deposited in the lower strata during the Flood, after which the mountains were raised. NOT on the sea floor but in the lower levels of the strata on the land.
Why do you think this? What evidence is telling you this is so? You have to describe for us the same evidence that convinced you, otherwise it can only be concluded that your views are not based upon evidence. This particular idea of yours is contradicted by the evidence, which has marine strata both above and below strata containing terrestrial forms.
I think the various cross sections show that there was one tectonic upheaval that occurred after the Flood,...
Can you show me what you're talking about? Presenting a cross section and identifying what specifically convinces you there was a single upheaval would be very helpful.
...meaning after all the strata were laid down, and that upheaval distorted strata to different degrees everywhere, knocked them down in the UK,...
But where is the evidence of anything being "knocked down in the UK?" And this is roughly the actual height of Snowdon in the UK, hardly high enough to fall down as you described earlier:


Snowdon                                                                  Harwich
...cut the canyons and cliffs in the Grand Canyon/Grand Staircase area, split the continents, raised the mountains, caused the Great Unconformity, triggered volcanism and so on and so forth. I think these things can all be traced on those various cross sections.
That's great. Please describe how you see the cross sections indicating these things happening. Present the image of the cross section and then be very specific about how the cross section shows that that is what happened. Be sure no laws of physics are broken.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1103 by Faith, posted 08-06-2019 10:16 AM Faith has not replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22388
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.2


Message 1154 of 2370 (860408)
08-07-2019 2:03 PM
Reply to: Message 1105 by Faith
08-06-2019 10:56 AM


Re: Basics Faith, basics.
Faith writes:
What's absurd is the idea that the sea floor could be raised into mountains,...
Can you explain why it seems to you that sea floor cannot be uplifted while any other part of the world can? What is it about sea floor that you think prevents uplift?
...especially since we can see that those mountains are built out of sedimentary strata.
The strata in mountains are primarily marine, as are most strata everywhere, mountains or not. Most strata were once marine. Unless you can explain why sea floor cannot be uplifted, it is entirely expected that uplift would build maintains from sea floor.
The only rational explanation is that the strata reflect the Flood, and since, as I just belatedly added to the previous post, the cross sections are evidence that the first tectonic upheaval occurred after the Flood, the mountains would have been raised at that point.
I've shown several times now how great amounts of deposition occurred after uplift in the UK cross section. And obviously the Grand Canyon Supergroup was tilted and eroded before the overlying strata were deposited.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1105 by Faith, posted 08-06-2019 10:56 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1155 by Faith, posted 08-07-2019 3:41 PM Percy has replied
 Message 1157 by Faith, posted 08-07-2019 3:46 PM Percy has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 1155 of 2370 (860430)
08-07-2019 3:41 PM
Reply to: Message 1154 by Percy
08-07-2019 2:03 PM


Re: Basics Faith, basics.
What is there to cause the sea floor uplift? I don't see any possible cause.
But we know that tectonic force can push the land up into mountains.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1154 by Percy, posted 08-07-2019 2:03 PM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1156 by PaulK, posted 08-07-2019 3:46 PM Faith has replied
 Message 1195 by Percy, posted 08-08-2019 2:53 PM Faith has replied

  
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