Understanding through Discussion


Welcome! You are not logged in. [ Login ]
EvC Forum active members: 88 (8945 total)
406 online now:
AZPaul3, dwise1, PaulK, vimesey (4 members, 402 visitors)
Newest Member: ski zawaski
Post Volume: Total: 865,807 Year: 20,843/19,786 Month: 1,240/2,023 Week: 191/557 Day: 2/76 Hour: 0/1


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   Did the Flood really happen?
Percy
Member
Posts: 18992
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 3.4


(1)
Message 1171 of 1256 (860487)
08-07-2019 9:06 PM
Reply to: Message 1114 by Faith
08-06-2019 3:27 PM


Re: What is a sea anyway?
Faith writes:

I think that she thinks that, since all the strata were laid down by the fludde, the Gulf didn't exist when the strata were laid down.

Flood or no Flood it's very clear that the Gulf wasn't there when the strata were laid down because the strata accumulate flat and horizontal and they aren't going to do that in a gulf.

Can you explain your rationale? What prevents sediments from accumulating flat and horizontal in a gulf? Even if we postulate that the gulf bottom was not originally flat and horizontal, accumulating sediments will gradually tend that way.

Also, salt domes do not take hundreds of millions of years to rise.

This is the first time you or anyone has mentioned salt domes in this thread, so no one has made any claims about how long salt domes take to form. I don't know what your point is, but I took a look at the Formation section of the Wikipedia article on Salt Domes. A salt layer won't even begin to form a dome until the density of the strata above is greater than the salt layer, which requires a great deal of overburden in order to compact the above strata to be denser than the salt layer, which can take millions of years. Salt apparently resists compaction because of its crystalline structure. Once the salt layer possesses sufficient buoyancy it can take more millions of years to form domes. The time it takes to form is a function of the strength of the overlying strata. Faulting can assist the process. Once a dome has begun to form it can push up through strata that are less dense than itself because of the buoyancy of the main salt layer pushing up from below, and overburden pressure on the salt layer (like squeezing a tube), all this focused onto the dome because of salt's inherent plasticity.

Those have probably been rising since the Flood, though some rise in a matter of hundreds of years or even less.

This seems unlikely in the extreme. Why do you think this?

This is evidence for the timing of a Young Earth but it's just flatly denied by the Old Earthers, of course.

You typing something like, "Salt domes have probably been rising since the Flood," is not evidence. I don't think you know what evidence is.

Then magic created the Gulf.

Not sure how it formed, but probably formed at the end of the Flood. The strata are hammock shaped, thin at the edges, thicker in the middle. the result of being in water as the salt rises.

It can often be hard to decipher your meaning, but please tell me you're not saying that the Gulf strata being thicker in the middle than at the margins is due to being submerged while salt domes form.

Irrelevant to the fact that deposition and strata formation are happening in the Gulf, of course.

And of course, whatever sediment is falling on top of the strata there is not how the geological column formed.

Deep sea cores all around the world show fine sediment at the top and all the way down. It becomes more compacted with depth, but those cores have no boundary with something else that could be interpreted as some original geologic column.

--Percy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1114 by Faith, posted 08-06-2019 3:27 PM Faith has not yet responded

  
Minnemooseus
Member
Posts: 3775
From: Duluth, Minnesota, U.S. (West end of Lake Superior)
Joined: 11-11-2001
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 1172 of 1256 (860488)
08-07-2019 9:21 PM
Reply to: Message 1162 by JonF
08-07-2019 4:09 PM


Things tectonic plate boundaries
First of all, a couple of links for further reading:

https://geology.com/plate-tectonics.shtml
https://www.thoughtco.com/...es-and-their-boundaries-1441098

Tectonic pressure happens mostly at plate boundaries.

There is 3 types of plate boundaries:

1) Divergent - Essentially synonymous with mid-ocean spreading centers, the notable exception being the east Africa rift valley, which is rather a proto-mid-ocean spreading center. These are areas of tension (aka negative pressure). Not directly relevant to continental deformations.

2) Convergent - Essentially synonymous with subduction zones, mostly at ocean crust/continental crust boundaries, although there are also ocean crust/ocean crust subduction zones. The big example is the Pacific ring of fire.

An exception to being subduction zones, is the case of continental plate/continental plate collision, the great example being the north end of the India plate. Another exception would be what I'll call obduction zones - Oceanic crust being thrust up upon continental crust, resulting in continental ophiolite complexes.

3) Transform faults - Such as the San Andreas fault in California and the Alpine fault in New Zealand.

What percentage of plate boundaries are in the ocean?

The bulk of those plate boundaries are mid-ocean spreading centers. The ocean/continent boundaries are mostly subduction zones or transform faults.

An "off the cuff" summary. I'm sure there could be some quibbles about the details.

Faith, message 1158 writes:

Tectonic pressure can create twisted pretzels of strata, can can make accordion type mountains like the Appalachians besides pushing the land in a way that causes mountains to rise straight up.

The origins of the Appalachians is complex, but a big part of it was that the was a continental/continental collision at one or more points in time, when the Atlantic Ocean basin closed.

Moose


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1162 by JonF, posted 08-07-2019 4:09 PM JonF has not yet responded

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 15570
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 3.0


Message 1173 of 1256 (860496)
08-08-2019 12:14 AM
Reply to: Message 1167 by Faith
08-07-2019 5:55 PM


Re: Basics Faith, basics.
quote:
We can SEE, we can UNDERSTAND, how tectonic forces alter the land, push up mountains, twist the strata and so on. The physics involved is really very clear.

And we can see and understand that the same can happen to the sea bed, because there is no relevant difference.

quote:
You just keep asserting that there's no reason why the sea floor couldn't rise to land level but that's no argument.

Sure it is. You need a reason why it can’t happen - it’s all the Earth’s crust after all, underwater or not there’s no big difference.

quote:
You have no mechanism in mind for how it could happen.

Sure I do and I’ve been saying so all along. It’s exactly the same mechanism that acts in the land. Because there is no relevant difference. You claim that the seabed must be exempt from these forces but you have offered no explanation, nor any reason to think so other than that you decree it.

quote:
What pushes it up?

The same forces that push up the land, of course.

quote:
A mountain is not the sea floor rising, it's just a mountain on the sea floor.

The region around the Grand Canyon is not a mountain either, none the less it has risen. What stops the same happening to a different portion of the Earth’s crust that happens to be underwater ?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1167 by Faith, posted 08-07-2019 5:55 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1174 by Minnemooseus, posted 08-08-2019 2:33 AM PaulK has responded
 Message 1181 by Faith, posted 08-08-2019 11:30 AM PaulK has not yet responded

  
Minnemooseus
Member
Posts: 3775
From: Duluth, Minnesota, U.S. (West end of Lake Superior)
Joined: 11-11-2001
Member Rating: 5.3


(1)
Message 1174 of 1256 (860501)
08-08-2019 2:33 AM
Reply to: Message 1173 by PaulK
08-08-2019 12:14 AM


Let's call the subtitle "isostasy"
quote:
We can SEE, we can UNDERSTAND, how tectonic forces alter the land, push up mountains, twist the strata and so on. The physics involved is really very clear.

And we can see and understand that the same can happen to the sea bed, because there is no relevant difference.

If by "sea bed" you mean oceans that are over the continental shelf or seas that were from a greater sea transgression onto the continents, then I would agree with you. If by "sea bed" you mean oceanic crust and sediments, then there is a big difference - The continents have a general specific gravity ("density") of 2.7 while the oceanic crust is 3.0.

quote:
You just keep asserting that there's no reason why the sea floor couldn't rise to land level but that's no argument.

Sure it is. You need a reason why it can’t happen - it’s all the Earth’s crust after all, underwater or not there’s no big difference.

Again, significant density difference. See isostasy.

Moose


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1173 by PaulK, posted 08-08-2019 12:14 AM PaulK has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1176 by PaulK, posted 08-08-2019 7:53 AM Minnemooseus has responded

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 18992
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 3.4


Message 1175 of 1256 (860504)
08-08-2019 7:47 AM
Reply to: Message 1119 by Faith
08-06-2019 4:08 PM


Re: Geological Column/ Time Scale is Over and Done With
Faith writes:

The earth is SIX thousand years old according to the most common way of reading the Bible, and it's been roughly 4300 years since the Flood. Does this change your view?

Whoa, whoa, whoa. Back up the bus there, honey. This is a science thread. If you think the Flood really happened then don't cite your religious book. Provide scientific evidence.

I know your answer is going to be something like, "I've provided a lot of scientific evidence, but you Old Earth defenders just ignore it." That is false. A lot of effort is expended dissecting the stories you make up. Your stories are devoid of evidence and violate the laws of physics and of geology. You baselessly declare explanations of your errors wrong, then repeat your stories and claim that they are too evidence. But the truth is that you only think the Flood was real because you assume your religious book is true, not because of any evidence.

You need to stop telling stories that you wish were true and start following the evidence where it leads.

--Percy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1119 by Faith, posted 08-06-2019 4:08 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1180 by Faith, posted 08-08-2019 11:28 AM Percy has responded

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 15570
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 3.0


Message 1176 of 1256 (860505)
08-08-2019 7:53 AM
Reply to: Message 1174 by Minnemooseus
08-08-2019 2:33 AM


Re: Let's call the subtitle "isostasy"
I don’t believe we are talking about oceanic crust. Faith is disputing that marine sediments in mountains could have been uplifted.

Not that I think that the higher density is sufficient in itself (as the existence of oceanic ridges would suggest)


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1174 by Minnemooseus, posted 08-08-2019 2:33 AM Minnemooseus has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1205 by Minnemooseus, posted 08-09-2019 12:11 AM PaulK has not yet responded

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 18992
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 3.4


Message 1177 of 1256 (860506)
08-08-2019 8:11 AM
Reply to: Message 1121 by Faith
08-06-2019 4:10 PM


Re: Patchwork Quilt Geological Column/s
Faith writes:

Please read in context. I didn't say it couldn't be imagined, what I said is that LOCAL FLOODS don't provide a basis for imagining it.

So then tell us: what is your basis in observed natural phenomena for imagining the Flood?

--Percy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1121 by Faith, posted 08-06-2019 4:10 PM Faith has not yet responded

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 18992
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 3.4


Message 1178 of 1256 (860507)
08-08-2019 8:27 AM
Reply to: Message 1124 by Faith
08-06-2019 4:29 PM


Re: Geological Column/ Time Scale is Over and Done With
Faith writes:

Why don't you stop being so blind and realize that I have given plenty of evidence?

Why don't you stop your misrepresentations? Try honesty for a change.

The truth is that you a) assume the Flood because of a religious book while participating in a science thread; b) make up impossible stories; c) declare yourself the definer of reality; d) ignore most responses; and e) work hard at keeping yourself uninformed.

Your few cursory encounters with evidence are rife with incomprehension, such as the UK cross section.

I again suggest you don't make claims about yourself because while there are rules against becoming personal participants can of course address and rebut and offer their views on any claims you make. You are not the topic. If you have Flood evidence that is stronger than the evidence of geology then it will win out. Muster your evidence and organize it into coherent arguments. Stop making ill thought out claims off the top of your head, like that the Gulf of Mexico is not a sea (again, not to reintroduce that topic into this thread - that topic should be discussed over at The Gulf of Mexico is Not a Sea).

--Percy

Edited by Percy, : Fix typo.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1124 by Faith, posted 08-06-2019 4:29 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1179 by Faith, posted 08-08-2019 11:25 AM Percy has responded

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 33718
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 1179 of 1256 (860518)
08-08-2019 11:25 AM
Reply to: Message 1178 by Percy
08-08-2019 8:27 AM


Re: Geological Column/ Time Scale is Over and Done With
Why don't your stop your misrepresentations? Try honesty for a change.

Why don't you stop falsely accusing me?

I have no idea what you mean about my making myself the topic. I suspect it's the result of people attacking me personally for my arguments so I respond in kind.

I believe I HAVE shown evidence enough to persuade others at least that there is something to the Flood claims, but it hasn't happened and I've stopped caring, long long ago. All I can do is continue to see how the same evidence shows up elsewhere, as that I found in the Grand Canyon area does seem to be present in the UK cross section.

I just posted on the subject of the Gulf on the designated thread in an attempt to be clearer about how I arrived at my view of it. Perhaps that will clarify.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1178 by Percy, posted 08-08-2019 8:27 AM Percy has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1203 by Percy, posted 08-08-2019 8:37 PM Faith has responded

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 33718
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 1180 of 1256 (860519)
08-08-2019 11:28 AM
Reply to: Message 1175 by Percy
08-08-2019 7:47 AM


Re: Geological Column/ Time Scale is Over and Done With
The Bible is the source of my thinking on this subject so it IS a scientific text on this subject.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1175 by Percy, posted 08-08-2019 7:47 AM Percy has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1183 by JonF, posted 08-08-2019 11:53 AM Faith has not yet responded
 Message 1191 by jar, posted 08-08-2019 2:03 PM Faith has not yet responded
 Message 1204 by Percy, posted 08-08-2019 8:48 PM Faith has not yet responded

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 33718
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 1181 of 1256 (860520)
08-08-2019 11:30 AM
Reply to: Message 1173 by PaulK
08-08-2019 12:14 AM


Re: Basics Faith, basics.
The tectonic pressure on the land is lateral. How would such lateral pressure lift the sea floor?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1173 by PaulK, posted 08-08-2019 12:14 AM PaulK has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1182 by DrJones*, posted 08-08-2019 11:53 AM Faith has not yet responded
 Message 1187 by JonF, posted 08-08-2019 12:34 PM Faith has not yet responded

  
DrJones*
Member
Posts: 1988
From: Edmonton, Alberta, Canada
Joined: 08-19-2004
Member Rating: 4.5


Message 1182 of 1256 (860524)
08-08-2019 11:53 AM
Reply to: Message 1181 by Faith
08-08-2019 11:30 AM


Re: Basics Faith, basics.
the same way it does on land

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1181 by Faith, posted 08-08-2019 11:30 AM Faith has not yet responded

  
JonF
Member
Posts: 5534
Joined: 06-23-2003
Member Rating: 3.2


Message 1183 of 1256 (860525)
08-08-2019 11:53 AM
Reply to: Message 1180 by Faith
08-08-2019 11:28 AM


Re: Geological Column/ Time Scale is Over and Done With
The Bible is the source of my thinking on this subject so it IS a scientific text on this subject.

Does not follow logically. The Bible is not a scientific text and is not credible evidence for a fludde. OK, it can be your inspiration, but to convince scientists you need measurements and observations of the real world.

Edited by JonF, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1180 by Faith, posted 08-08-2019 11:28 AM Faith has not yet responded

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 18992
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 3.4


Message 1184 of 1256 (860526)
08-08-2019 12:13 PM
Reply to: Message 1134 by Faith
08-07-2019 12:05 AM


Re: Geological Column/ Time Scale is Over and Done With
Faith writes:

You call this an explanation:


H ----------------------------------------------
G ----------------------------------------------
F ----------------------------------------------
E ----------------------------------------------
D ----------------------------------------------
C ----------------------------------------------
B ----------------------------------------------
A ----------------------------------------------

And then you tilt them upward on the left and erode the tops off like this:


A B C D E F G H
\ \ \ \ \ \ \ \
\ \ \ \ \ \ \ \
\ \ \ \ \ \ \ \
\ \ \ \ \ \ \ \
\ \ \ \ \ \ \ \
\ \ \ \ \ \ \ \

But it's no explanation at all. It's what needs to BE explained. For all those hundreds of posts I've been trying to explain how we get from the horizontal layers to the tilted layers. That's what YOU haven't explained, and I have a feeling you don't have an explanation.

Thisis the same as the uplift of the Colorado plateau from our familiar cross section. It has the same tilt as the UK cross section:

Here's a closeup of the tilted portion. It's tilted just like the strata in the UK diagram:





Now imagine that this tilted portion of the Colorado Plateau had experienced erosion similar to the UK. It would look like this, though the terrain would be more irregular - I can only draw a straight line since I'm using div blocks and character graphics:






Bright Tapeats
Angel |
Temple Muav | |
Butte | | |
Redwall | | | |
Supai | | | | |
Hermit | | | | | |
Coconino | | | | | | |
Toroweap | | | | | | | |
Kaibab | | | | | | | | |
Moenkopi | | | | | | | | | |
| | | | | | | | | | |
| | | | | | | | | | |
v v v v v v v v v v v



If the tilt being in the opposite direction to the UK cross section makes it difficult to make a visual comparison, here's the same thing turned 180°:






Tapeats Bright
| Angel
| | Mauv Temple
| | | Butte
| | | | Redwall
| | | | | Supai
| | | | | | Hermit
| | | | | | | Coconino
| | | | | | | | Toroweap
| | | | | | | | | Kaibab
| | | | | | | | | | Moenkopi
| | | | | | | | | | |
| | | | | | | | | | |
v v v v v v v v v v v



And here's the UK cross section for comparison. It's the same thing, with tilted layers eroded down to produce a horizontal sequence on the surface:

--Percy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1134 by Faith, posted 08-07-2019 12:05 AM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1185 by Faith, posted 08-08-2019 12:23 PM Percy has acknowledged this reply
 Message 1186 by Faith, posted 08-08-2019 12:27 PM Percy has responded

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 33718
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 1185 of 1256 (860528)
08-08-2019 12:23 PM
Reply to: Message 1184 by Percy
08-08-2019 12:13 PM


Re: Geological Column/ Time Scale is Over and Done With
I just finished Message 1169 where I first started it so that's next on the agenda and I'll have to come back to this post.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1184 by Percy, posted 08-08-2019 12:13 PM Percy has acknowledged this reply

  
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2018 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.0 Beta
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2019