Register | Sign In


Understanding through Discussion


EvC Forum active members: 65 (9162 total)
7 online now:
Newest Member: popoi
Post Volume: Total: 915,815 Year: 3,072/9,624 Month: 917/1,588 Week: 100/223 Day: 11/17 Hour: 0/7


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   Did the Flood really happen?
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 1396 of 2370 (869007)
12-21-2019 5:06 PM
Reply to: Message 1391 by JonF
12-20-2019 6:59 PM


Re: silly all one type of rock nonsense.
The maps and pictures don't do me any good, sorry. No idea what you are trying to get across. Maybe you could put it into words? Or draw some thick lines on the pictures or something or both?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1391 by JonF, posted 12-20-2019 6:59 PM JonF has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1398 by JonF, posted 12-21-2019 5:27 PM Faith has replied
 Message 1399 by JonF, posted 12-21-2019 5:29 PM Faith has not replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 1397 of 2370 (869008)
12-21-2019 5:07 PM
Reply to: Message 1393 by RAZD
12-21-2019 9:44 AM


Re: Shorelines, not just temporary edges of water.
Can't see the picture RAZD and even if I could I suspect I might not be able to make out what you want to show me in it.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1393 by RAZD, posted 12-21-2019 9:44 AM RAZD has seen this message but not replied

  
JonF
Member (Idle past 168 days)
Posts: 6174
Joined: 06-23-2003


Message 1398 of 2370 (869010)
12-21-2019 5:27 PM
Reply to: Message 1396 by Faith
12-21-2019 5:06 PM


Re: silly all one type of rock nonsense.
It's trivial to tell the difference between a buried surface river and an underground river. The former shows a tree-like branching pattern, the latter has few branches.
We know this by looking at surface rivers and underground rivers today and understanding the physics of flowing water.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1396 by Faith, posted 12-21-2019 5:06 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1401 by Faith, posted 12-22-2019 8:19 AM JonF has replied

  
JonF
Member (Idle past 168 days)
Posts: 6174
Joined: 06-23-2003


Message 1399 of 2370 (869011)
12-21-2019 5:29 PM
Reply to: Message 1396 by Faith
12-21-2019 5:06 PM


Re: silly all one type of rock nonsense.
Dupe
Edited by JonF, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1396 by Faith, posted 12-21-2019 5:06 PM Faith has not replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 1400 of 2370 (869021)
12-22-2019 7:59 AM
Reply to: Message 1393 by RAZD
12-21-2019 9:44 AM


Re: Shorelines, not just temporary edges of water.
eeps it from being just a temporary shoreline during the regression of the Flood?
The evidence that it is a mature shoreline, including wave cut shores
This discussion is unfortunately one of those arguments just thrown in after I've been making other points, it's a change of subject and I'm expected to be able to follow it but there is not enough information, AND since I've been dragged into it when my mind was elsewhere I'm not really inspired to get into it at all.
Now you give me the mystifying information, meaning descriptions without evidence, so I'm forced to ask, what is a "mature shoreline," and what are "wave cut shores" and why don't they fit the idea of the regressing Flood waters? It seems to me they probably fit quite well in spite of your hit and run assurance they do not. But the Flood took months to drain away, why wouldn't there be stationary shore lines in the process, including waves?
(here you describe the picture which is just a blur to me)...
and evidence of marshlands and of terrestrial life and aquatic life on each side of the shoreline and amphibians in the marshes. Evidence of this at several different levels, each many many years to develop the mature shoreline ecological profiles.
But of course. And I assume the "evidence" is fossils, yes? Nothing "developed" in the Flood of course, though you often seem to think that is claimed, which it is not. There may of course be all kind of evidence that you are not reporting because it isn't of interest to the support of the Old Earth and the ToE. Creationists in the field might discover it of course but I can't go out there to look for myself. Anyway since the life forms are divided between the different environments it suggests more the rising of the Flood than the regression of the Flood.
.. during the regression of the Flood?
What regression? A regression is more than just the tide going out Faith, it is an extended period of time during which terrestrial plants and animals inhabit the land and shallow water marine life (seaweeds, clams, etc) inhabit the water.
Please do not put words in my mouth. I said nothing to indicate the timing of a tide. I'm talking about a lengthy period of pausing during the regression. OR the rising of the Flood, hard to know at this point. And of coruse the shorelines were temporary, to refer to your title: they no longer exist, right?
Since of course your terrestrial plants and animals are in fossil form above your shoreline, and the marine life etc is within the shorelines in fossil form, so ALL were overtaken by the Flood. If it was the rising phase of the Flood then it brought the marine life from the oceans onto the land and the terrestrial life moved to avoid the water.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1393 by RAZD, posted 12-21-2019 9:44 AM RAZD has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1414 by RAZD, posted 12-22-2019 3:09 PM Faith has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 1401 of 2370 (869022)
12-22-2019 8:19 AM
Reply to: Message 1398 by JonF
12-21-2019 5:27 PM


Re: silly all one type of rock nonsense.
It's trivial to tell the difference between a buried surface river and an underground river. The former shows a tree-like branching pattern, the latter has few branches.
We know this by looking at surface rivers and underground rivers today and understanding the physics of flowing water.
The problem is I'm confined to whatever "evidence" you see fit to mention and I may not get the picture you are trying to convey. I forget the sequence of this discussion so I don't know how we got here and I don't know where you may be talking about a "fossil" river bed versus an active underground river for instance.
But a river with few branches would be running on a relatively flat survace, no? Such as the surface of a sedimentary flat rock? However, if such a rock got tectonically distorted so that water might run from higher areas to the main channel, then it would have branches, no? I'm just trying to think this through.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1398 by JonF, posted 12-21-2019 5:27 PM JonF has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1403 by JonF, posted 12-22-2019 10:45 AM Faith has replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


(1)
Message 1402 of 2370 (869036)
12-22-2019 10:41 AM
Reply to: Message 1381 by Faith
12-20-2019 3:14 PM


Re: silly all one type of rock nonsense.
... Your rivers are very rare and all they are is runoff that occurred after the strata were laid down but still wet. Duh. They are channels in rock, they have NO OTHER RESEMBLANCE to surface rivers.
1. Why are they filled with rubble? Underground rivers form caverns, because they remove material. generally dissolved material, like calcite.
2. How is that "runoff" which is a term that denotes surface flow?
Runoff: Surface and Overland Water Runoff | U.S. Geological Survey
Surface Runoff and the Water Cycle | U.S. Geological Survey
Runoff - definition of runoff by The Free Dictionary - definition
When you misuse terminology you expose your ignorance of the field.
Enjoy

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAmericanZenDeist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1381 by Faith, posted 12-20-2019 3:14 PM Faith has not replied

  
JonF
Member (Idle past 168 days)
Posts: 6174
Joined: 06-23-2003


Message 1403 of 2370 (869038)
12-22-2019 10:45 AM
Reply to: Message 1401 by Faith
12-22-2019 8:19 AM


Re: silly all one type of rock nonsense.
In both cases it would have branches.
The context is your claim that buried surface rivers are really rivers that were always underground.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1401 by Faith, posted 12-22-2019 8:19 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1404 by Faith, posted 12-22-2019 11:18 AM JonF has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 1404 of 2370 (869039)
12-22-2019 11:18 AM
Reply to: Message 1403 by JonF
12-22-2019 10:45 AM


Re: silly all one type of rock nonsense.
I can't think in terms of buried surface rivers. I can't figure out how to explain them in relation to the Flood. Maybe if I rethink it I'll find it possible, but there should only be strata left by the Fllood beneath the surface, and there would have been water running through those strata, some no longer running, but some continuing, some of them looking like surface rivers. That's what I would suppose just based on what the Flood would have done.
I don't mind being ignorant of the standard terminology if it needs to be different in order to express what I want to express. Sometimes the terminology can only express the prevailing paradigm, in which case it isn't useful for an alternative paradigm. If it says what I want to say then it would be best to use it of course.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1403 by JonF, posted 12-22-2019 10:45 AM JonF has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1405 by jar, posted 12-22-2019 11:25 AM Faith has replied
 Message 1412 by JonF, posted 12-22-2019 2:28 PM Faith has not replied
 Message 1430 by dwise1, posted 12-23-2019 4:11 PM Faith has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 1405 of 2370 (869041)
12-22-2019 11:25 AM
Reply to: Message 1404 by Faith
12-22-2019 11:18 AM


again Faith is asserting the impossible
If it is underground how can it look like surface rivers? How could the channel get filled up with material that is different than the immediate layer above it? Surface rivers are a semi-circle form, a flat surface on top. How can an underground river have a flat upper surface and be filled with material different than the layer above?
Faith, again, there is no known process, procedure, model, mechanism or method for a flood to create underground rivers that look like rivers formed on the surface.

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill StudiosMy Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1404 by Faith, posted 12-22-2019 11:18 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1406 by Faith, posted 12-22-2019 11:50 AM jar has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 1406 of 2370 (869048)
12-22-2019 11:50 AM
Reply to: Message 1405 by jar
12-22-2019 11:25 AM


Re: again Faith is asserting the impossible
Don't ask me. It's the others who are saying they look like surface rivers, not I. But I'm still not at all clear what exactly anyone is describing under which names.
Different material than the layer above it? Doesn't seem difficult to explain to me. A channel is formed between strata and material from another location flows into it and being confined between the layers has a flat surface in conformity with the layer overhead . Limestone being the liquid filling the channel in many cases IIRC. In fact the liquid limestone is probably what carved the channel anyway, one dissolved limestone dissolving the one below.
I've given the model for the Flood many many times. You've even read it, but you refuse to acknowledge it. I consider you to be nothing but a gadfly uninterested in real discussion.
I've explained how I see the situation you described above. I don't think the FLood is necessary to that anyway. You've got two layers and the same process that forms karsts, the dissolution of limestone, is all it takes to form a channel with limestone flowing through it between layers. It's a channel more or less shaped like a riverbed but that's all it has in common with a river.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1405 by jar, posted 12-22-2019 11:25 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1409 by jar, posted 12-22-2019 12:20 PM Faith has not replied
 Message 1411 by PaulK, posted 12-22-2019 12:40 PM Faith has not replied
 Message 1413 by JonF, posted 12-22-2019 2:36 PM Faith has not replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 1407 of 2370 (869049)
12-22-2019 11:59 AM
Reply to: Message 1383 by jar
12-20-2019 3:33 PM


Re: Floods can't create this.
Sand dune? Na, that's formed by water, like that famous formation I can't think of the name of. The Wave or something like that?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1383 by jar, posted 12-20-2019 3:33 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1408 by Coragyps, posted 12-22-2019 12:19 PM Faith has not replied
 Message 1410 by jar, posted 12-22-2019 12:24 PM Faith has not replied

  
Coragyps
Member (Idle past 734 days)
Posts: 5553
From: Snyder, Texas, USA
Joined: 11-12-2002


Message 1408 of 2370 (869052)
12-22-2019 12:19 PM
Reply to: Message 1407 by Faith
12-22-2019 11:59 AM


Re: Floods can't create this.
Yeah, the Sahara Desert is pretty famous for all the water forming sand dunes there.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1407 by Faith, posted 12-22-2019 11:59 AM Faith has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 1409 of 2370 (869053)
12-22-2019 12:20 PM
Reply to: Message 1406 by Faith
12-22-2019 11:50 AM


Re: again Faith is asserting the impossible
They were surface rivers Faith.

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill StudiosMy Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1406 by Faith, posted 12-22-2019 11:50 AM Faith has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 1410 of 2370 (869054)
12-22-2019 12:24 PM
Reply to: Message 1407 by Faith
12-22-2019 11:59 AM


Re: Floods can't create this.
LOL
The Wave is eroded sand dunes. The sand dunes were created on land but the current shape is due to errosion of wind and water.
Basics Faith. Try to learn the Basics.
Note the cross bedding Faith, something impossible for a flood to create but typical of sand dunes.
Edited by jar, : there's no y in The

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill StudiosMy Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1407 by Faith, posted 12-22-2019 11:59 AM Faith has not replied

  
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024