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Author Topic:   strange experience at confession
Phat
Member
Posts: 15647
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003


Message 6 of 49 (860810)
08-12-2019 10:28 AM
Reply to: Message 5 by Stile
08-12-2019 9:52 AM


A Sidenote To Stile
Believers...many of them anyway...believe that the best medicine for the human soul is Holy Communion with God. Since you *know* that God doesn't exist, you can preach this whole "works for some but not everyone" mantra. And normally it makes good logical sense. But to some believers it is as if you are preaching/teaching that the secular spirit has every bit as much right to exist in life (in us) as does the Holy Spirit. Which to some is offensive, for it speaks of spiritual dualism rather than Monotheism. But I doubt you understand what I mean. Chris likely does.

Part of the upcoming and ongoing spiritual war on this planet is going to be one side claiming that Jesus is the only way, while the other side essentially says that whatever works for you is cool. If we are wrong that a spiritual war even exists, you have a logical argument. If, on the other hand, we are correct (which you currently have *no* evidence for) You will see the reality intensify. You likely will someday get your evidence that you seek.


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
~Stile


This message is a reply to:
 Message 5 by Stile, posted 08-12-2019 9:52 AM Stile has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 8 by Stile, posted 08-12-2019 10:43 AM Phat has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 15647
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003


(1)
Message 7 of 49 (860811)
08-12-2019 10:40 AM
Reply to: Message 4 by Faith
08-11-2019 11:09 PM


My 2 cents
Faith writes:

We are told to confess "to one another," not to a priest.

Would you rather confess to the half drunk guy in the last pew who is struggling to find his own way with God?

While I agree that confession should be directed at God, it has been my experience that confessing to another human causes me to open up and get deeper with my own confessions, perhaps because someone is listening. Isn't the priest another human? Likely one who has studied more than I have. And one wouldn't get very far confessing to a secular scientist. They would simply refer you to a psychologist.

Look, I know your misgivings about the Roman Catholic Church. Chris has a brother who is very evangelical...I look forward to having a conversation with them one day soon. Also keep in mind that God has many of his believers in the RCC as well. There is no perfect church. Many Protestant ones are far too political and worldly. They think America is the new Israel.


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
~Stile


This message is a reply to:
 Message 4 by Faith, posted 08-11-2019 11:09 PM Faith has not yet responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 15647
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003


Message 15 of 49 (860926)
08-13-2019 3:48 PM
Reply to: Message 8 by Stile
08-12-2019 10:43 AM


Re: A Sidenote To Stile
Stile writes:

There are plenty of therapeutic "methods of atonement" that take shape based on information we've become aware of due to evolutionary sciences.
They work together.
They may not work for you - but they certainly work for many.
Just find the one that works best for you, and be happy about it.
No need to make false accusations about other things that help other people in different ways to reach the same state of mental health.

This makes me think that if you ever found God, you would accept Him only if He worked for you. The whole idea of you working for Him seems tyrannical in many minds. I guess what I see as a point of contention is your argument regarding equality of "spirits".

To Wit:

thugpreacha writes:

But to some believers it is as if you are preaching/teaching that the secular spirit has every bit as much right to exist in life (in us) as does the Holy Spirit.

stile writes:

That's exactly what I'm saying.

TP writes:

Which to some is offensive, for it speaks of spiritual dualism rather than Monotheism. But I doubt you understand what I mean. Chris likely does.

stile writes:

I think I understand what you mean - I'm just not sure if you actually understand what you mean.

I understand what I believe. One side touts an absolute while the other side advocates "whatever work" or whatever it takes to achieve peace.

stile writes:

Don't you think that, maybe, the idea that Monotheism is better than spiritual dualism (or even "non-Monotheism") is offensive to those who don't follow Monotheism?

Why should one group's "feelings of being offended" be taken as higher than another group's?

Under normal circumstances your argument makes sense. We believe that we are in a spiritual war because many societal values are changing, in our opinion, for the worse. Critics will ask us why we are being authoritarian, judgemental, and warlike. We may well argue that satan is a clever pied piper that is leading the majority down a destructive path which seems good but is not.
Proverbs 14:12 writes:

There is a way that seems right to a man, but its end is the way to death.

The dogma that we have been taught suggests that satan is an angel of light and will attempt to seduce the world through ideologies that seem liberal and progressive but are in reality poisoning humanity. Counter citics will argue that it is our religious beliefs themselves which are the stumbling block towards progress. Many feel that the last days will see the rise of antichrist and that the Body of Christ---the church---will itself be persecuted for taking a hardline stand and not changing with the culture.

Stile writes:

Why shouldn't we all be focusing on finding a way to live together, in harmony?

We can work together. Some of us don't believe that whatever works will in fact be the best solution. We will not compromise simply to achieve peace, because we are afraid that the wrong spirit will be in charge.

Which is why I entertain all viewpoints in this matter. There is, after all, a possibility I may be wrong. I only wish that my opponents would acknowledge that obedience to a Messiah may be the right path. Both sides can imagine the world view of the other side. Our only common enemy would be personified hate/jealousy, greed for power that a potential antichrist would embody. Obedience to a Supreme Being is in now way repressive. (Unless one believes that personified evil does not exist any more than God does)


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
~Stile


This message is a reply to:
 Message 8 by Stile, posted 08-12-2019 10:43 AM Stile has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 16 by Stile, posted 08-14-2019 9:28 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply
 Message 17 by ringo, posted 08-14-2019 11:25 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 15647
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003


Message 21 of 49 (861105)
08-17-2019 5:27 AM
Reply to: Message 20 by AZPaul3
08-17-2019 4:59 AM


My 2 cents
And some folks have the audacity to think they could do a better job!

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
~Stile


This message is a reply to:
 Message 20 by AZPaul3, posted 08-17-2019 4:59 AM AZPaul3 has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 22 by AZPaul3, posted 08-17-2019 5:47 AM Phat has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 15647
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003


Message 27 of 49 (861120)
08-17-2019 2:54 PM
Reply to: Message 22 by AZPaul3
08-17-2019 5:47 AM


Re: My 2 cents
And someday when people have failed without God, the secular humanists will blame the behavior of the humans in bringing about the tough times rather than the idea that it is a spiritual war and must happen. Yeah I have nutty beliefs. If God didn't exist and if there were no deceiving spirits, your position would be most rational.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
~Stile


This message is a reply to:
 Message 22 by AZPaul3, posted 08-17-2019 5:47 AM AZPaul3 has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 28 by AZPaul3, posted 08-17-2019 3:12 PM Phat has responded
 Message 30 by dwise1, posted 08-18-2019 3:24 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply
 Message 31 by Tangle, posted 08-18-2019 4:13 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 15647
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003


Message 29 of 49 (861146)
08-18-2019 2:31 AM
Reply to: Message 28 by AZPaul3
08-17-2019 3:12 PM


Re: My 2 cents
So you claim, but all you can argue is that there is a lack of evidence, not considering that not everything can be evidenced objectively by everyone. Thus you say we are nutters. Unfortunately, many of us are crazy, carnal, and undisciplined, so we shoot our credibility in the foot...

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
~Stile


This message is a reply to:
 Message 28 by AZPaul3, posted 08-17-2019 3:12 PM AZPaul3 has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 32 by AZPaul3, posted 08-18-2019 10:31 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply
 Message 49 by ringo, posted 08-19-2019 12:17 PM Phat has not yet responded

  
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